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Is there way around the FL law against proof of vaccine


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Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

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11 minutes ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

Problem with that is it puts a huge burden on the staff to enforce the have and have not rules.

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11 minutes ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

This is really the best way forward for now.

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More importantly it's still not clear that a state can control this at all.  And if they can, can they do anything once the ship leaves state water sort of thing.

While there is ample maritime convention that federal government regulations apply for ships involving a US port, I'm not sure there is any history of a state government having control over the entire voyage in the manner the federal government does.

To me the whole thing is a political stunt.  I don't think it would survive a day in court.  

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Let's be clear.  The CDC is not saying everyone can discard the mask.  Only vaccinated can discard the mask.  

If Florida doesn't allow the cruise line to ask the question, the cruise line has to assume everyone is unvaccinated therefore everyone must wear a mask.  Furthermore there is no way the CDC is going to green light unvaccinated and unmasked cruising right now.   

To be clear I have no issues being around unvaccinated.  However I am not going to put the mask back on so they can join the party.    If they want to take the chance that's their choice but don't expect me to mask up to accommodate them and that would be the only way the CDC would allow cruising to occur without requiring vaccines right now.

  

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1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

Problem with that is it puts a huge burden on the staff to enforce the have and have not rules.

no we just give them special sea pass cards and make them wear funny hat when they leave their cabins. 

Consequence for no compliance is to walk the plank, i mean gangway where the ship will leave you at the next port of call.

 

Hey don't laugh that isn't anymore ridicules than the CDC's mandates

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12 hours ago, twangster said:

If Florida doesn't allow the cruise line to ask the question, the cruise line has to assume everyone is unvaccinated therefore everyone must wear a mask.  Furthermore there is no way the CDC is going to green light unvaccinated and unmasked cruising right now.   

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

There is/was a health screener that we used to fill out before boarding ... add a box .. are you vaccinated yes/no.

Hand a blue band to everyone that says yes  and move on - you can choose to lie or not same as you always could but you are making the statement and they arent asking you to show proof.

 

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7 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

There is/was a health screener that we used to fill out before boarding ... add a box .. are you vaccinated yes/no.

Hand a blue band to everyone that says yes  and move on - you can choose to lie or not same as you always could but you are making the statement and they arent asking you to show proof.

 

So many nuances but I suspect if you posed that question to the governor his interpretation would be very broad.  

One step at a time.  We need to get cruising within our sights before we look for new ways to kill it.  

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7 minutes ago, twangster said:

So many nuances but I suspect if you posed that question to the governor his interpretation would be very broad.  

One step at a time.  We need to get cruising within our sights before we look for new ways to kill it.  

Agreed, I have always felt if we can get past the CDC to bring it down to FL vs Cruise lines that it will get solved in about 30 seconds flat ...

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13 hours ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

 

Or if you aren't vaccinated, you're restricted to your stateroom for the entire sailing. If you are vaccinated, you have access to the rest of the ship.

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1 hour ago, jticarruthers said:

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

Yes, the new law prohibits businesses, schools, and government agencies from requiring people to show documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccinations or post-infection recovery before gaining entry.

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2 hours ago, jticarruthers said:

Agreed, I have always felt if we can get past the CDC to bring it down to FL vs Cruise lines that it will get solved in about 30 seconds flat ...

This.

But, as Twangster posts, "one step at a time." Let's get the cruise re-start from US ports into sight. Baring a ruling by Judge Merryday that enjoins enforcement of the CDC's CSO, I suspect that in the background, unknown to the public, negotiations are going on between the CDC and cruise line execs over the entire contents of the CSO. In light of the CDC's announcement that masks are not required for fully vaccinated people, except in some settings (I'll get to that), some provisions of the CSO won't stand.

On the issue of how the CDC views cruise ships and the risks of disease spread when sailing on them: First, let's make sure we understand that the CDC views cruise ships as "congregate residential settings." These settings according to the CDC are at higher risk for disease spread and therefor are differently regulated. You can read the recent update (5/7/21) relevant to the cruise lines here: https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html

IMO, it is arguable whether the science and the data support the designation of cruise ships as "residential congregate settings." Nursing homes, hospitals and prisons, I'm fine with that. Most of us are not fine with a cruise ship being designated as residential congregate setting. That's because, all things considered, cruise ships are a combination of large out door and indoor gatherings, restaurants, bars, casinos and hotels. None of these venues are subject to any kind of additional restrictions. Big contradiction given CDC's green-lighting maskless participation (normal behaviors) in any of those venues for fully vaccinated people. Nevertheless, that's where we are. Is it over-reach and falls within FL's claim and request to enjoin the CSO? Technically, no but I believe Judge Merryday is looking at this on the basis of the Amicus Curiae brief from the Association of Travel Advisors. We'll see when he rules.

There is a ton more CSO regulations pertaining to ports in the document I linked above. Read them if you like. I feel pretty confident this is government over-reach that conflicts with state's authority to regulate it's ports. The CDC doesn't have authority to regulate FL's ports past the water's edge unless they are federal facilities - none of FL's ports are that. I believe Judge Merryday is looking at this and it is where I opined earlier that we could see some of the provisions of the CSO, like these, enjoined but the CSO in total would not be enjoined.     

Back to out of the public eye negotiations going on between cruise line execs and the CDC. We've discussed some of the crazy, makes no sense mitigation measures for passengers aboard ships within this blog. The ones that will be targets for negotiations are the ones that contradict other PH guidance the CDC has provided. You know which ones these are ... the it's the long list of "stupid and makes no sense" mobility and behavior restrictions (masking between bites at a meal, no buffet style dining, limits on the number of passengers gathering in one location). If the CSO is not tossed out in its entirety I think we'll see most of this disappear. Right now, the CDC is under tremendous pressure to get it's act together. It's back-peddling ferociously and we'll see some of this in whatever COVID protocols the cruise lines end up incorporating or not into ship's operations.

On vaccinations to board/sail. Setting aside the potential conflict with FL's governor's position on this for the moment, businesses are entirely in their legal rights to require employees aboard ship to be vaccinated. Generally, where PH is concerned, it's legal to require vaccinations for certain kinds of participation. School is one of them and that has been upheld by the courts in numerous challenges. The matter of the legality of a business requiring it for patrons to receive service or enter hasn't been fully established. This is the best and most concise opinion on this I've seen:

Quote

 "It is lawful and ethical for a business to require proof of vaccination as a condition of working or getting service," Georgetown Law professor and public health expert Lawrence Gostin told CBS News. "The employer must offer medical and religious exemptions. Businesses have a legal and ethical obligation to provide a safe environment. Requiring vaccinations is the best way to do that." But that doesn't mean there aren't — and won't be — legal exceptions and challenges, aside from privacy concerns.

So, can cruise ships require vaccinations to sail. I think they can and will on the basis of their ethical obligation to provide a safe environment. Will that be challenged? Yes. In time for it to affect July sailings in the US? No.

On the Desantis position within FL. Can he ban companies operating in FL from requiring proof of vaccination for service or entry? IMO, no and I've written elsewhere why. However, there is the practical matter of creating a kurfuffle for both parties involved in reaping the benefits of restarting cruising from FL ports. My take is that there will be some sort of agreement reached and cruise lines will have the option of requiring them to sail/board from FL ports or not. Again, IMO, if the cruise lines wanted to give Desantis the middle finger they would be within their legal rights to require vaccines to board.  But why considering what's at stake.

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17 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Back to out of the public eye negotiations going on between cruise line execs and the CDC. We've discussed some of the crazy, makes no sense mitigation measures for passengers aboard ships within this blog. The ones that will be targets for negotiations are the ones that contradict other PH guidance the CDC has provided. You know which ones these are ... the it's the long list of "stupid and makes no sense" mobility and behavior restrictions. If the CSO is not tossed out in its entirety I think we'll see most of this disappear. Right now, the CDC is under tremendous pressure to get it's act together. It's back-peddling ferociously and we'll see some of this in whatever COVID protocols the cruise lines end up incorporating or not into ship's operations.

This is only one portion of the tremendous pressure that is coming to bear on the CDC at the moment which, IMO, caused the "no mask mandate" to come out yesterday. They and the WH administration have in the past four months insisted on the mask mandate, even with the vaccine that was touted as the miracle cure for getting back to normal, and it became apparent that to move forward and not lose all credibility with the general public it had to be removed. That is the first step. The negotiations which I believe are happening as one would in normal course of business and court dealings may result in the CSO being modified to allow the cruise lines to operate soon and to save face for the CDC which they desperately need right now. This would make the judges' ruling easier and can be shown as a win-win for both parties. Either way, I just hope we can get sailing soon.

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