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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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So now the family wants the CCTV recorded images of the tragedy dropped because the CCTV camera lied! They want to continue to insist that window ledge on the 11th floor of the ship is a baby play area! And the grandpa who is supposedly working as IT man and drives cars, cannot tell whether the window is open? If the video gets thrown out and he gets acquitted, I think our justice system would need total overhaul. They are all for the money before even the child body turn cold. He should go to jail and the parents should get nothing!

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I wonder if grandpa has ever come back to his car in a snow storm and found his car full of snow because he didn't know his window was open?

Probably has a wicked air conditioning bill in the summer when the windows in the house are open.  

Drive through restaurants must be a PITA for him.  Is the window open or not?  So confusing.

Is he a Mac IT professional because Windows seems to give him a lot of trouble.

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I was standing by an open window on deck 11 as Adventure docked in San Juan today. 
 

I counted 11 different people talking about this incident , and all of them thought his story is bs.  
 

I had forgotten just how far it is from the wooden railing to the window ledge. I could stand between the two. It would be a tight squeeze, and the footing would suck, but there’s enough room for my body  

I have never minded heights, but when I bent out the window like I saw in the above video, I was a bit uncomfortable. 

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3 hours ago, teddy said:

 

I had forgotten just how far it is from the wooden railing to the window ledge. I could stand between the two. It would be a tight squeeze, and the footing would suck, but there’s enough room for my body  

This information accompanied with the video, and the photo from @F1guynz reminds me of how much room is there!  I never doubted that RCCL was not at fault especially when you are able to see the tinting to the windows, and decipher which windows are open or closed even from being on land.  As has already been mentioned it is not hard to tell which ones are open or closed when you are onboard due to the noise level as well as the wind.  Both which the grandfather should have heard, and felt prior to him even sticking his head out of the window as the video shows.  At this point there is NO justification for what he has done and he and his family need to come to the realization that none of this is going to bring their precious daughter back.  They need to spend as much time healing from this horrible tragedy as they are putting into trying to defame/blame RCCL!!!  

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Based on the height of the railing I would say one of the reasons it is there is prevent adults from leaning out the windows and falling out. Reason enough not to put a child up there.

Also when the window is open you can see all the window runners so I suspect if you asked 10,000 adults 9,999 would be able to tell it was open.

 

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We boarded Adventure just a day or two after this unfortunate situation.  Everyone was discussing this everyday.  Everyone had the same reaction...that handrail is far enough out that any sane minded person would say....hmmm.  handrail by window, WARNING, danger!   You don't need tinted windows.  The handrail should be a big enough warning.

What drives me crazy about the parents is if they are anything like my son nd his wife,  they are nothing like when we raised our kids regarding safety.  I am 54.  No sleeping with pillows until a certain age, crib bumpers have to be a certain fabric.  Switching car seats from one car to another is a process/ordeal.  Check, double check to make sure it is tethered properly.  I believe I am an intelligent woman, but I cower with my kids....can I do this or that with their child?  

Hence, as a grandparent, I really don't get the family.  How on earth, with this video, did he think oh I just bent my body 90 degrees over a railing to look out, so lets have the baby, at best, stand on the railing.  

My hubby and I discussed this on a car ride this past weekend.  We both agreed that if we did this as a grandparent, we would have to be on a suicide watch.  I could never get over it.  There would be nothing in my life to live for.  Please, no flaming me.  I am just saying emotionally I could never get past this pain and guilt.

If I was working in the PR dept for RCL.  Whatever ends with the lawsuit, win or lose, I would tell them to publicly offer the family, every family member lifetime psychological counseling regardless of the cost to the company.  

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We were also on Adventure and was wondering the same if Freedom is set up the same as Adventure as in the photo shown above by @F1guynz ?  Is this a picture of Freedom?  This is what it looked like on Adventure and I didn't understand how the grandfather could put the baby on the rail and not know the window was there...and how the child was leaning over enough?  But thought maybe that is not the set up on Freedom and it was simply the window opening. 

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Knowing what I do about the legal system and the way people's minds work, I predict that if Grandpa is found guilty in the criminal trial (and I hope he is), the family will cry, "Unfair!" and they'll appeal, and forever believe that it was RCCL's fault. It's far more comfortable than accepting the truth, which is too horrible.

I wonder how Grandma and Grandpa's marriage is doing, and how it was before this. If I felt like spending a couple of years writing a novel, I can cook up a terrific backstory here!

 

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I'm reading an essay in The New Yorker by Atul Gawande about brain function, and it says, ". . . visual perception is more than ninety per cent memory and less than ten per cent sensory nerve signals." Also, "The mind integrates scattered, weak, rudimentary signals from a variety of sensory channels, information from past experiences, and hard-wired processes, and produces a sensory experience full of brain-provided color, sound, texture, and meaning." and the bottom line, "Perception is inference."

We know this to be true. "Green" is only what our brains tell us, not necessarily what's out there. Maybe Grandpa really thought there was glass there, because of a defect in his neuro-perception or the information stored in his brain. 

Still, that's not RCCL's fault. RC cannot know what defects of thinking a passenger might have. So maybe it was just an unavoidable tragedy that's no one's fault. In time the family will catch on to the fact that Grandpa often doesn't know what's in front of him.

Poor Grandpa. Poor Chloe. Poor family. It's just sad all around. But certainly not RCCL's fault!!!!!!!!!!!

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3 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

Maybe Grandpa really thought there was glass there, because of a defect in his neuro-perception or the information stored in his brain

Would have to be a hell of a defect, he stuck his head though the opening a minute or so before holding the child up to it

If his short term memory is that bad I wouldn't let him watch over my pen, never mind a kid

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1 minute ago, tiny blonde said:

Poor Grandpa. Poor Chloe. Poor family. It's just sad all around. But certainly not RCCL's fault!!!!!!!!!!!

I pray for that man, and his family. Pointing a finger is natural, and not surprising, as its nearly impossible to come to terms with admitting fault in such a tragedy. Unfortunately, the legal system is tasked with pointing the finger in the appropriate direction....and im not envious of anyone that has to participate. I feel for RCCL and the people that work for them, that are tasked with fighting it. THERE IS NO GOOD THAT COMES FROM ANY OF THIS, unless it prevents such a tragedy from happening to anyone else in the future. 

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I’m glad some of us here have the decency to say “poor Chloe.” She is the one who this story should be about. It makes me sad that this has delved into how the grandfather should get off* because he feels bad, and her parents trying to get every cent possible from Royal and be on TV whenever they can. No one seems to even notice that Chloe is dead because her grandfather made a careless mistake. I don’t care that she banged on the glass at hockey so her parents and grandfather think that’s OK on a ship. I don’t care that some public opinion says “oh lots of parents hold their kid up on railings!” 

*I’m not saying people here argue that Grandpa feels really bad and should get off without punishment. But spend a few minutes reading FB posts about this story and that seems to be the opinion of some. 

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7 hours ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

No one seems to even notice that Chloe is dead because her grandfather made a careless mistake.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with the use of "careless" here -- under the most casual of examination, this was anything but a careless mistake. It may not have been a deliberate action as some have worried, but it is absolutely demonstrative of a complete lack of common sense and good judgement. When the individual is lacking in that, any action they take cannot be described as "careless". Reckless and/or negligent? Absolutely. Flaunting authority? Possibly, given the grandfather is on the record as being someone who believes laws about seat belts and other safety-related rules of the road don't apply to him.

But careless? I refuse to accept that in the face of the mountain of evidence we've seen.

 

But one thing you are right about. Chloe is dead because of her grandfather's actions. And that is a tremendous tragedy no matter the circumstances.

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51 minutes ago, JLMoran said:

this was anything but a careless mistake. It may not have been a deliberate action as some have worried, 

Keep in mind, a short time after the incident(approximately within 48hrs) when this was headline news, there was a report, authorities was looking into the child's medical records. That suggested the authorities possibly looking into something more sinister.

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I have a lot of issues to accept that the Grandpa was only guilty of child endargement /negligent homicide. Look at the video I am attaching - he practically had all his upper torso out of the window for about 40 seconds. So our IT man had to know the window was open - https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/18/distressing-videos-show-moment-grandfather-dropped-toddler-death-off-cruise-ship-11929902/. CCTV cameras do not lie. If he can work as an IT person and drive  cars he can see and he is not that dumb and decrepit as the family lawyer presents. Also, the picture provided of the railing in front of the window and the narrow window ledge make my skin cringe - it is so narrow that I would not put there my purse or even a drink! Placing a toddler there is more than reckless homicide! Well, he loved her but she had some serious health problems which could spell bleak future for her. With all inconsistency, was it a mercy killing?

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Apparently the family's new talking point is that the grandfather could not lean out the window because of the distance between the rail and the window.  Maybe that's true, but it still does not change the fact he leaned far over that railing before picking the girl up and holding her far enough out that when she dropped, she dropped to the ground rather than between the rail and window on the ship.  No reasonable person could fault the cruise line.

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The family and atty think this would have been prevented by a warning sign.  If Mr. Anello was so visually impaired that he couldn't tell the difference between an open or closed window (not to mention all the other sensory cues we've talked about), would he have even seen the sign?  Did they need a sign on every window pane or dangling at eye level for the open windows where there's nothing to adhere to?

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5 hours ago, Clear Laker said:

This lawyer is desperate. Did his degree come from a cereal box? Yeah sure Royal is lying. I guess the surveillance video was made up and filmed with mannequins and extras? ? Seriously though. 

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5 hours ago, Zambia-Zaire said:

The family lawyer is employing the Schiff/Nadler offensive playbook...if one understand that, you understand what he's doing for the family....

 

?

 

Seriously? Did you really need to go there? This forum is a wonderful resource and imho should be politics free. 

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Daily Mail story with an interview from the doctor who went to help Chloe. It includes photos of the family lawyer’s re-enactment:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7922419/Doctor-cruise-ship-recalls-finding-toddlers-body-grandfather-dropped-her.html

The re-enactment photos still show that Chloe was held beyond the railing and the lawyer is insisting that Grandpa couldn’t have reached the window.

The doctor said that Grandpa didn’t need a sedative to calm down. You’d think he’d be more hysterical after doing such a tragic thing. 

The family is also asking for other cameras from the ship to be released and now stating the cameras’ presence was not disclosed to them at boarding. Is that even a thing? When I went on my last cruise, which was only back in November, i don’t recall anyone at the terminal or on the ship telling me that surveillance cameras were recording onboard areas.

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46 minutes ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

now stating the cameras’ presence was not disclosed to them at boarding

Might not be disclosed at boarding, but there are signs posted all around the ship (every ship), especially in the public areas like the pools, that make it clear there is CCTV and that everyone is being monitored for safety and security purposes.

They're grasping at the roots sticking out of the loose cliff wall, and the dirt surrounding those roots is crumbling rapidly...

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Regardless of any excuses and regardless of any legal outcome, this families fate is already sealed. Grandpa will always be known as the man that dropped his special needs baby step- granddaughter out a window and the parents will always be seen as blaming unaccepting sue happy people. The lawyer will be the sole winner. He got his 15 minutes of fame. Fortunately for a lawyer like him, any attention is good attention. 

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2 hours ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

now stating the cameras’ presence was not disclosed to them at boarding.

Am I reading too much in to that statement or does that sound sinister to anyone else?

If they knew about the camera, what? they would have chosen another window that a camera couldn't see?

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2 hours ago, cmdrfrag said:

Am I reading too much in to that statement or does that sound sinister to anyone else?

If they knew about the camera, what? they would have chosen another window that a camera couldn't see?

Remember Chloe's mother is a prosecuting attorney and her father is a police officer, so in their world being notified of CCTV is grounds for a legal defense.

For me, it is BS and grasping at straws,  Worse yet, I would be looking at them, and saying you know there are CCTVs as a public official in the legal system

 

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I’m still perplexed by what exactly releasing the other angles will do. It will still show Grandpa leaning over the window and lifting Chloe, will it not? Is this slime bag attorney trying to say he feels the CCTV is made up? Even before the video was released the media reported that you see the grandfather going over to the window and leaning over. The family’s lawyer even AGREED with a reporter who essentially asked him if that was what Mr. Anello was doing. 

So what will another angle do? Show us that what Royal released was recreated by puppets? 

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28 minutes ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

I’m still perplexed by what exactly releasing the other angles will do. It will still show Grandpa leaning over the window and lifting Chloe, will it not? Is this slime bag attorney trying to say he feels the CCTV is made up? Even before the video was released the media reported that you see the grandfather going over to the window and leaning over. The family’s lawyer even AGREED with a reporter who essentially asked him if that was what Mr. Anello was doing. 

So what will another angle do? Show us that what Royal released was recreated by puppets? 

The defense is just trying to get the videos ruled inadmissible as evidence, because they don't show what happened at the window, only behind the window (i.e. we only see what happened from behind Grandpa, and the front - where Chloe was just before she fell - is not visible). Any reason they can find to rule out evidence weakens the prosecution and could get the case "nol prossed," which means that while the charges will not be dropped, the prosecution will have too little evidence to support their case and the case will not be heard. And Grandpa can go home.

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