Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?

[twangster]

Grandpa's plea deal is likely the best course of action for the family at this point in the game or they wouldn't go there.

The civil case is very different and not associated or bound to the government's criminal case against Grandpa.  

By accepting the plea deal the parents prevent a lot of discovery and evidence that might have worked against them in their civil case against Royal.  Grandpa is a puppet following orders.  

[FManke]

18 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

I'm not arguing with you on this, in fact I fully agree with you.  But I'm sure the lawyer will fight this reasoning and logic.

I'm just a normal guy, looking at it with many years of life experience. No more, no less. Of course, a lawyer is going to look at it differently. He has a dog in the fight. Laws and lawsuits aren't always based in logic, in my opinion.

[twangster]

This is a game not unlike a game of chess.  The family is very proficient in the game of law, no move they make is whimsical or uncalculated.

The actions of a game piece took their precious child.  That can't be undone.  Now that rook is being sacrificed.  The choice to sacrifice their rook was made looking at the game board thinking four or five moves ahead in the game.

A higher power will see through the game.  In the end everyone involved will be accountable for their actions regardless what occurs in this game of law.

[PG Cruiser]

28 minutes ago, twangster said:

Grandpa is a puppet following orders.  

If he can only turn back the hands of time and not "obey the order" to take care of his granddaughter that day.

[FManke]

21 minutes ago, twangster said:

A higher power will see through the game.  

In the end, I guess they are truly the only one who knows what everyone was thinking and doing. 

[princevaliantus]

Grandfather of toddler who died in cruise ship fall is pleading guilty to end 'nightmare'!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/grandfather-toddler-who-died-falling-cruise-ship-plead-guilty-her-n1142981

Now that Grandfather admits fault, the Civil Suit gets diminished, if not, dismissed against RCCL!!

[Jjohnb]

2 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

I am not a lawyer but what I'm seeing here is that the lawyer will argue that had Royal "adhered to window fall prevention laws designed to protect children", the negligent grandfather would not have had the chance to cause the death of his grandchild.  They'd say, "If there were no open windows there, the accident could not have happened."

My two cents ...

 

Yes, they'll argue that just because the grandfather (i.e. grandmother's boyfriend) was negligent, it doesn't relieve the cruise line from (their perceived) negligence.  This sleazy family will still go after their blood money.  

[TXcruzer]

22 minutes ago, princevaliantus said:

Grandfather of toddler who died in cruise ship fall is pleading guilty to end 'nightmare'!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/grandfather-toddler-who-died-falling-cruise-ship-plead-guilty-her-n1142981

Now that Grandfather admits fault, the Civil Suit gets diminished, if not, dismissed against RCCL!!

The grandfather did not admit fault, nor does the plea speak to any details of his actions regarding the incident. The civil case will be FULL steam ahead. 
In reality this plea deal will be beneficial to Winkelman and his crusade against Royal, as any chances of a negative discovery during criminal proceedings has been eliminated. 

[PG Cruiser]

21 minutes ago, princevaliantus said:

Now that Grandfather admits fault, the Civil Suit gets diminished, if not, dismissed against RCCL!!

I'm not sure the guilty plea will diminish the Civil Suit.   They'll argue that the open window on the 11th deck of the Freedom made the accident possible.

[StayFrosty]

3 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

He is not admitting to the facts, but he is accepting the guilty plea, which means he is saying, "Guilty."

But there are rules as to how such pleas are allowed to be used in the courtroom.  It is not as simple as common sense would dictate. I am familiar with a simplified version of the Federal Rules of Evidence so I will differ to a lawyer who is familiar with the rules of evidence in PR.  A guilty plea hear does not necessarily mean a spam dunk for the civil case. (I’ll do a little more research)

[princevaliantus]

42 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

The grandfather did not admit fault, nor does the plea speak to any details of his actions regarding the incident. The civil case will be FULL steam ahead. 
In reality this plea deal will be beneficial to Winkelman and his crusade against Royal, as any chances of a negative discovery during criminal proceedings has been eliminated. 

38 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

I'm not sure the guilty plea will diminish the Civil Suit.   They'll argue that the open window on the 11th deck of the Freedom made the accident possible.

When you take a plea, you are at fault 100%. The grandfather will be changing his plea. This is not a "nolo contendere" plea and was not stated as such by his attorney. Once he makes his allocution to the Court, it's done. Then, comes the Civil matter, since Grandfather has taken fault in his allocution to the Court, Civil AND Criminal proceedings run parallel, inasmuch, liability false on the Grandfather and diminishes on RCCL. There is also a sense of Comparative Negligence that RCCL might still have to argue/fight in court before a jury and/or settle. Please do your research and have legal a background as I do. I don't state falsehoods. Too many "jailhouse" lawyers on this site.

[PG Cruiser]

5 minutes ago, princevaliantus said:

 Please do your research and have legal a background as I do. I don't state falsehoods. Too many "jailhouse" lawyers on this site.

I thought we were having a discussion here.  I didn't realize only the experts can chime in.  Just to let you know, most of your posts on this forum have that tone in them.

[princevaliantus]

1 minute ago, PG Cruiser said:

I thought we were having a discussion here.  I didn't realize only the experts can chime in.  Just to let you know, most of your posts on this forum have that tone in them.

Never assume, as the saying goes. Just stating facts. No Mal-intent behind it. No caps were used. Just coming from someone with a legal background.

[StayFrosty]

After some more research, a guilty plea is admissible but it does not automatically mean that he is liable. He will have a chance to explain his reasoning for that guilty plea.  It would be up to the jury to determine how that guilty plea will be used in their decision making process. 

[princevaliantus]

1 minute ago, StayFrosty said:

After some more research, a guilty plea is admissible but it does not automatically mean that he is liable. He will have a chance to explain his reasoning for that guilty plea.  It would be up to the jury to determine how that guilty plea will be used in their decision making process. 

There is no jury when you plea out to charges. A plea is an agreement made by both sides and overseen/agreed to by the Court. The Court has final say whether it will accept defendant's plea and the recommendation of the prosecution.

[StayFrosty]

Just now, princevaliantus said:

There is no jury when you plea out to charges.

I was talking about using the guilty plea in the civil case that I am assuming would have a jury. 

[princevaliantus]

6 minutes ago, StayFrosty said:

I was talking about using the guilty plea in the civil case that I am assuming would have a jury. 

Oh ok. Two parts in a Civil action. Liability and then Damages. Grandfather gets on the stand and says he held granddaughter over railing. Moreover, RCCL's Counsel will bring up his allocution, and once the jury hears he accepted responsibility by his plea in the Criminal action, the jury will have to decide if Grandfather is 100% or if there is Comparative Negligence by RCCL, which will most likely be minimal. In addition, RCCL can bring in Grandfather in the Civil action as a Third-Party action.

[Fairlynew]

Is Puerto Rico a comparative negligence jurisdiction or a contributory negligence jurisdiction?

[princevaliantus]

1 hour ago, Fairlynew said:

Is Puerto Rico a comparative negligence jurisdiction or a contributory negligence jurisdiction?

Currently, Puerto Rico has adopted the "pure" comparative negligence standard.

[Fairlynew]

Interesting.  That’s what NC had when I was in law school (and still may).   Back in the ‘80s, in NC the standard was that any degree of contributory negligence meant no collection for the plaintiff (unless the defendant had the “last clear chance” to avoid the accident.  I can’t see how that applies here but there almost has to be a bit of contributory negligence.  However, does Puerto Rico law or Florida law control?    I think Florida is a comparative negligence state.  

[princevaliantus]

1 hour ago, Fairlynew said:

Interesting.  That’s what NC had when I was in law school (and still may).   Back in the ‘80s, in NC the standard was that any degree of contributory negligence meant no collection for the plaintiff (unless the defendant had the “last clear chance” to avoid the accident.  I can’t see how that applies here but there almost has to be a bit of contributory negligence.  However, does Puerto Rico law or Florida law control?    I think Florida is a comparative negligence state.  

Since the venue will be somewhere in Florida, that's where the jurisdiction lies.

[Floski]

There is absolutely nothing good that will come from this tragedy, but I just saw this on FB, and 

it just enhances what we all already know - that man was fully aware that the window was open.

https://bcaeagles.com/2020/02/04/new-video-shows-moments-before-toddler-fell-to-her-death-on-royal-caribbean/?fbclid=IwAR0ldijxsRj_wts6BbYim8RIyhr7xlVBBY8oSmT0VelZe5v2CFEmwdV8JnQ

 

[tiny blonde]

Does anyone know whether the family is going ahead with the civil suit, or did they drop it?

[JLMoran]

1 hour ago, tiny blonde said:

Does anyone know whether the family is going ahead with the civil suit, or did they drop it?

Haven't heard anything, but I would wager that in the current pandemic environment, any and all trials and other gatherings of legal professionals and their clients are on hold for the duration. Can't exactly do a court trial with a jury via Zoom.

[SpeedNoodles]

8 hours ago, JLMoran said:

 Can't exactly do a court trial with a jury via Zoom.

I wouldn't dread testifying in court so much if it was via Zoom, lol.

[Manana Chkadua]

As of September 2020, anybody heard anything about the Wiegand family lawsuit against Royal Carribean?

[twangster]

2 hours ago, Manana Chkadua said:

As of September 2020, anybody heard anything about the Wiegand family lawsuit against Royal Carribean?

Their lawyer is rumoured to be considering a case against the virus since it diminished his potential income from this and the many other cases he claims to have against Royal.  

[Baked Alaska]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

Their lawyer is rumoured to be considering a case against the virus since it diminished his potential income from this and the many other cases he claims to have against Royal.  

NAILED! IT!

[TXcruzer]

12 hours ago, twangster said:

Their lawyer is rumoured to be considering a case against the virus since it diminished his potential income from this and the many other cases he claims to have against Royal.  

Best post of the entire Pandemic period

[FManke]

13 hours ago, twangster said:

Their lawyer is rumoured to be considering a case against the virus since it diminished his potential income from this and the many other cases he claims to have against Royal.  

As funny as this is, it truly is a sign of the times. 

[Morganno]

On 2/26/2020 at 6:43 PM, PG Cruiser said:

  They'll argue that the open window on the 11th deck of the Freedom made the accident possible.

Better not tell them about the balconies on the 12th deck then 

[PG Cruiser]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:23 PM, Morganno said:

Better not tell them about the balconies on the 12th deck then 

This is what I've been posting on all news websites and pages reporting the family's account of the incident.  I think I have even posted on this thread something like "What is the cruise line to do, fence off the balconies?" 

[Ray]

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1638588/grandfather-plead-guilty-cruise-granddaughter-death/ 

Latest ...

[Floski]

I just saw this on a feed.   

So, does this end this tragic saga?   Obviously, no one wins in such a terrible situation, 

but I certainly hope this closes the book.

RIP, little Chloe

[Ray]

Reading it they are still looking to take RC to court for substantial damages due to the fact grandfather is colourblind and didn't know window was open!!!

So no its not the end..it should be because anyone whos seen the video knows that being colourblind has no bearing on your brain cells or lack of them when it comes to dangling a child through an open window 11 floors up 

[tiny blonde]

This is not a change in status – this was the criminal case against the grandfather, and he changed his plea to guilty in February. The civil suit against RC is yet to take place. So the book is far from closed.

I do think it was accidental, caused by stupidity, and my heart goes out to the family. Grief almost always takes the shape of anger, so they're looking to blame RC. Either RC will settle (for the same reason the grandfather settled – to put an end to it), or a jury will decide. My guess is that RC will settle and the family will receive money that will not take the place of their daughter or do anything to lessen their grief. 

No winners, really. 

[twangster]

39 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

No winners, really. 

Except for their attorney.

[PG Cruiser]

7 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

Grief almost always takes the shape of anger, so they're looking to blame RC.

From the time the lawyer showed up, a day after the incident, it ceased to be about the grief.  It became all about the money the lawyer thinks he could get from Royal.

[Eternal Friends]

Who would ever let go your child, even if there was no glass there? Most people would have a death grip on a child if they were holding it up to a window. It sounds suspicious, the entire family needs to be investigated. 

[HeWhoWaits]

I have to believe the guilty plea to negligent homicide came about as a result of being advised by attorneys that the prosecution had a solid case for at least murder in the 2nd degree, if not murder in the 1st. Putting the case to rest in this way was how the "grandfather" minimized his prison time.