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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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It is hard to believe that anything was pre-meditated.  I don't think the grandfather would go for that.  If I was asked to kill my grandkids, I would tell the parents to do the dirty work themselves.  Also, the grand father did not bring the child over to the window, the child went there on their own and the grandfather chase after her.  You can see this much from the video. 

It was a tragedy and a poor decision by the grandfather to lift her out the open window.  Not purposeful with any sort of intent, it was an accident.   One thing for sure, you can see the grandfather first look out the window, and his head extends pretty far, I would think out of the window so he had to know the window was open.  Also, when he lifts the child and swings her over the railing you can see it is done in a pretty quick motion, if he thought there was a window there I think he would have been more careful with her not to have her bang into the window.

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1 hour ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

What kind of show is that supposed to be? I was almost surprised I managed to look past the puppet woman and watch the video. Is it like daytime talk? 

It is a (mostly crass) gossip/scandal oriented show with some social/political commentary. In the past it used to also feature interviews (including local politicians) and had also managed to get "scoops"  in controversial news issues. It had been cancelled several years ago and must have recently resurfaced. The puppeteer is man portraying a gossipy woman. 

For the person asking about the commentary, there is really no new information provided. He basically just describes what is seen in the video, and repeats multiple times that the grandfather lied because you can clearly see that the window was open, etc.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, YOLO said:

I loved Freddy and his flute!  That show came on right before The Banana Splits!

H.R. Pufnstuff,
Who's your friend when things get rough?
H.R. Pufnstuff
Can't do a little cause he can't do enough.

LOL, you are all so much younger than I am, maybe even younger than my children! I grew up with Howdy Doody, Kukla Fran and Ollie, have any of you heard of them? It was the dawn of home television, my brother and I watched the test patterns until Howdy Doody came on.

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Serious question, because I don’t have kids so really wouldn’t know the answer to this: Can an 18 month old talk/communicate enough to ask their parent to do something? I just read the complaint filed by the parents’ lawyer and it says Chloe asked her grandfather to lift her up to bang on the glass. I am sure she can’t form a full sentence but would she at least have been able to point and babble? 

The complaint PDF is past the video footage near the bottom of the page. The lawyer still seems like an idiot to me. Half his excuse seems to be “But other ships’ windows close!” 

https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/12/18/video-shows-heartbreaking-moment-grandfather-lifts-tot-girl-to-window-aboard-cruise-ship-before-she-falls-150-feet-to-her-death/

 

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1 hour ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

Can an 18 month old talk/communicate enough to ask their parent to do something?

You get to know your kids even before they can speak, much earlier than this child's age.  As they develop it could be grunt, a finger pointing, some gesture.  As they begin to formulate words and beyond that start to put sentence structure together a parent can understand communication where an outsider or stranger would not be able to.  

However, just because a child asks for something you don't automatically grant their wish.  "I want an ice cream".  Okay, first one.  "I want another".  Maybe, probably not.  "I want another and another and another".  No. No. No.  Just because a toddler asks for something doesn't mean you give it to them.   

Parents say "NO" more than than "YES".  It's part of the role.  Children don't understand, they just want something.  "I want to play with that real bear in the zoo, it looks cuddly".  It takes an adult to decide what is proper and right.  Sometimes children don't take the rejection well and throw a tantrum.  All parents have dealt with that.   Tantrum or not, you are not going near that bear.

You may be onto something though.  While mom or dad may have responded "No you can not look out the window" maybe grandpa who just wanted to be the nice grandparent tried to appease her.  

However she didn't want to be lifted to bang on the glass.  She already could do that at floor level.  She wanted a clear view out the open window or grandpa decided she would be happier to see through the open window instead of that dirty salt covered glass at floor level.  The "bang on glass' story came from the Florida attorney a thousand miles away.  Just another of his many inaccuracies I suspect.    

I do have to admit the idea that she had medical issues crossed my mind.  They lawyered up so fast.  It's like they had the Florida attorney on speed dial.  

It still bothers me they refused to speak to local investigators yet they were talking with their new buddy in Florida.  If this happened to my child I would want to talk to the investigators, I would have questions.  I wouldn't hide from them.  

 

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56 minutes ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

Serious question, because I don’t have kids so really wouldn’t know the answer to this: Can an 18 month old talk/communicate enough to ask their parent to do something? I just read the complaint filed by the parents’ lawyer and it says Chloe asked her grandfather to lift her up to bang on the glass. I am sure she can’t form a full sentence but would she at least have been able to point and babble? 

The complaint PDF is past the video footage near the bottom of the page. The lawyer still seems like an idiot to me. Half his excuse seems to be “But other ships’ windows close!” 

https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/12/18/video-shows-heartbreaking-moment-grandfather-lifts-tot-girl-to-window-aboard-cruise-ship-before-she-falls-150-feet-to-her-death/

 

An 18 month old could lift her arms up straight and say "Up," indicating that she wanted to be lifted. In her grandfather's arms, she could lean toward the window, indicating it's where she wanted to reach. Kids do that all the time. They also write on the walls with crayons. Needless to say, we don't always give in to their whims or let them have their way. But a grandfather who hadn't spent much time watching his granddaughter might be a softy and reluctant to say No, which is what the responsible adult needs to say very often.

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43 minutes ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

Serious question, because I don’t have kids so really wouldn’t know the answer to this: Can an 18 month old talk/communicate enough to ask their parent to do something? I just read the complaint filed by the parents’ lawyer and it says Chloe asked her grandfather to lift her up to bang on the glass. I am sure she can’t form a full sentence but would she at least have been able to point and babble? 

 

Yes, most toddlers could communicate something like that at 18 months old, especially enough that a close family member could put two and two together with gestures, words and knowing the child's interests to understand what they want.  First meaningful words usually occur by a year old, and simple phrases in the months and year following.  However, I read that Chloe was a preemie (I believe this was in her obituary), which could have caused developmental delays so it's hard to say in her case.

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1 hour ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

Serious question, because I don’t have kids so really wouldn’t know the answer to this: Can an 18 month old talk/communicate enough to ask their parent to do something? I just read the complaint filed by the parents’ lawyer and it says Chloe asked her grandfather to lift her up to bang on the glass. I am sure she can’t form a full sentence but would she at least have been able to point and babble? 

The complaint PDF is past the video footage near the bottom of the page. The lawyer still seems like an idiot to me. Half his excuse seems to be “But other ships’ windows close!” 

https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/12/18/video-shows-heartbreaking-moment-grandfather-lifts-tot-girl-to-window-aboard-cruise-ship-before-she-falls-150-feet-to-her-death/

 

It honestly depends on the child. My 13-yr-old was talking in complete sentences, rivaling some kindergarteners, by the time he was 18 mo old. My 11-yr-old barely spoke before the age of 3... probably because his big brother wouldn’t let him get a word in. ?

I still highly doubt Chloe asked to be put on a railing (whether in words or gestures) that was 2’ over her head. Unless it was common practice for her grandpa, or other family members, to put her on railings... where children have no business sitting, regardless of time or place. 

And GMAFB with sleazeball Winkleman saying that since there were no signs prohibiting sitting on the railing, then people will assume they’re meant to be sat on. 

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17 hours ago, coneyraven said:

I can't wonder how much of this B.S. is from the sketchy lawyer convincing them to go forward and that it's not their fault...... I would almost bet that he approached them, not the other way around, and in their state of mind, sold them a "bill of goods" that it was Royal's Fault.  Now, thanks to the lawyer, they're "all in" --- no backing out now.  And who wins in the end.... the family?  Not even close....... The Lawyer?  You betcha. 

Here's his page... see for yourself

https://www.lipcon.com/maritime-attorneys/michael-winkleman/

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6 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

WOW --- I stand by my statement ..... I doubt, at that moment in time, they were thinking about getting lawyered up.... He was attached to them within hours.  There's no way a person with those type of accolades waits for the cases to come to him.  His ego has to be larger than Freedom.

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16 minutes ago, coneyraven said:

Combined...... He must be compensating for something.

Well look where he went to law school. The caliber of school definitely matters in that profession. (I considered briefly pursuing a law career and the cost of school and the bleak job market made up my mind fast.) No way he could measure up enough to get the kinds of jobs that go to grads of places like Villanova or Michigan. 

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7 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

It's surprising the family didn't thank him for his concern and support and then retain an experienced, successful attorney.  This guy's credentials are laughable, he's definitely third tier and surely no match for the firepower of Royal's internal / external counsel. 

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One more item with respect to the sleazy lawyer. The slime-ball attorney only speaks English. Can Royal request that any civil trial be conducted in Spanish since the incident occurred in Puerto Rico? Or does the incorporation in Florida automatically move it to a Florida court which would be conducted in English?

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4 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

One more item with respect to the sleazy lawyer. The slime-ball attorney only speaks English. Can Royal request that any civil trial be conducted in Spanish since the incident occurred in Puerto Rico? Or does the incorporation in Florida automatically move it to a Florida court which would be conducted in English?

Royal's cruise contract includes a forum selection clause which requires that all lawsuits against Royal Caribbean, irrespective of the nationality of the passengers or the location of the accident, be filed in Federal District Court for the Southern District of Florida.  I assume that is where the parent's lawsuit has been filed.  Proceedings will be in English.

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First time poster to this board, but I've followed and read several articles about this case.  Like many of you I wonder if some of the comments people have made are true or are they just speculating . . . We know Chloe was a preemie and overcame medical problems but don't really know what type of problems she had.  A couple of posters in one of the DM articles asked if the baby had Hydrocephalus because of the size of her forehead and head, and if she was continuing to have symptoms.  Others claim Chloe's mother disliked her step-father, Sam Anello, before this happened and they were putting-up a united front for the lawsuit.  Is it true that the father took pictures of the area after this happened, I couldn't imagine having the presence of mind to do so if it were my child, etc.  My impression is the father is there to support her, but really doesn't want to say anything, surprised Mrs. Anello colored her hair for the press conference . . .The police department where the father works set-up one of those go fund me type accounts for Chloe's parents, and someone that knows Sam also set one up to help him pay for legal fees and travel.  They may have delayed in filing a lawsuit against the cruise line because they were hoping the company would make them an offer, but they didn't get it.  At last the video.  Although I believe they wanted to protect the older child, which would be difficult to do;  I think they didn't want the public to see what they saw and know in their hearts what happened.  

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On 12/19/2019 at 8:39 AM, teddy said:

50 isn’t old and senile.  Seriously, it’s not. 

Darn right it isn't! I turn 50 in exactly one month, and I'm still counted as a highly valuable and experienced member of my team of software developers. I'll admit I don't learn new things as fast as my younger coworkers are able to, but at least a part of that is because nowadays I have a bigger percentage of my brain devoted to things that aren't 100% work related. Like cruising! ?

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52 minutes ago, JLMoran said:

Darn right it isn't! I turn 50 in exactly one month, and I'm still counted as a highly valuable and experienced member of my team of software developers. I'll admit I don't learn new things as fast as my younger coworkers are able to, but at least a part of that is because nowadays I have a bigger percentage of my brain devoted to things that aren't 100% work related. Like cruising! ?

Where I live, when people find out I'm 81, they say (without fail), "Oh, you're still a baby!" Neither my husband (84) nor I is fully retired, we both work part-time - he's a jazz musician, I'm a clinical social worker. One of our friends here is 106, and his girlfriend will turn 100 in March. Most of our neighbors are in their 90's. They're all retired. Come to think of it, we're going to have to make arrangements to take time off for our first cruise . . . in only 108 days!! ? 'Can hardly wait.

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18 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

Where I live, when people find out I'm 81, they say (without fail), "Oh, you're still a baby!" Neither my husband (84) nor I is fully retired, we both work part-time - he's a jazz musician, I'm a clinical social worker. One of our friends here is 106, and his girlfriend will turn 100 in March. Most of our neighbors are in their 90's. They're all retired. Come to think of it, we're going to have to make arrangements to take time off for our first cruise . . . in only 108 days!! ? 'Can hardly wait.

I'm so happy for you and your husband!

Image result for giddy gif

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  • 3 weeks later...
5 hours ago, Zambia-Zaire said:

This was apparently (from the Daily Mail, above) the statement made by RCCL in its motion to have the Weigand's lawsuit denied: 

'This is not a case of an unknowing child approaching an open window and falling out because the window was defective or improperly positioned.

'Rather, this is a case about an adult man, Chloe's step grandfather who, as surveillance footage unquestionably confirms: (1) walked up to a window he was aware was open; (2) leaned his upper body out the window for several seconds; (3) reached down and picked up Chloe; and (4) then held her by and out of the open window for thirty four seconds before he lost his grip and dropped Chloe out of the window.

'His actions, which no reasonable person could have foreseen, were reckless and irresponsible and the sole reason why Chloe is no longer with her parents.'

I think that the grandfather really thought there was glass there, but that it was still a stupid idea to pick her up and dangle her out there. Even if the window had been closed, she would have fallen and been injured. It was stupid to do even if there was glass, except that she would be alive. Still stupid. A three year sentence is light in exchange for a child's life.

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58 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

 

I think that the grandfather really thought there was glass there,

Really?

After the video footage shows him leaning out of the window, he believed there was glass there?

Everyone can make their own call here, but personally, once I lean my body out of a window, I'm pretty confident there's no glass there...

 

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I've had an opportunity now to sail a number of different ships since this tragic incident.  Everytime I see a window like this I've tried my best to pretend or preconceive that there is no window in an attempt to have an open mind and try to see if there is anyway, somehow, someone might not know a window is window.

Without exception even the change in air pressure was a tell-tale sign.  I've tried squinting, I've close my eyes briefly, I've worn polarizing sunglasses to reduce glare.  I couldn't trick myself into believing there was no window.

I simply can't accept he didn't know the window was open.  Given the child was at floor level looking through the glass I am all but convinced he not only knew the window was open, but lifted her up with the deliberate intention to look out the open window compared to looking through the tinted and possibly sea salt covered glass at floor level.

I've done something along these lines when my kids were young but never going so far to place them in danger of falling over a railing or through a window.  I always approached it so that even if I did drop them the worst case is they would land at my feet.  Often this meant standing back away from a railing so they could see but there would be no way for them to go over.  He didn't do that, instead he was leaning out the window with her.  It was poor judgement and bad decision making on his part.  

I'm glad to see the company respond to the case and defend itself after months of ridiculous and false accusations.   

In all my sailings before or after I've never seen anyone bring a child up to a higher level on the glass wall, window or no window, to look out.  It simply never happens because there is glass at floor level for children to look through.  There is no need to lift a child higher to have the same view they already have at floor level.  

"To touch the glass" was his excuse.  The child was already touching the glass at floor level.  

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2 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

I haven't yet been on my first cruise (but am counting the days!!), so I have yet to see the windows . . . . so could someone tell me how much space there is between the rail and the glass? And couldn't the grandfather have been leaning over the rail but yet not out the window?

To the extent I saw him leaning your head would be pressed against the glass if you were leaning that far.  

The other factor at a port on boarding day - there is a lot of dock noise such as forklifts and trucks, backup alarms, carts being jostled and banging.  You hear that noise at an open window, not so much when windows are closed or you are not near an open window.  

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How about the parents that have gone on national TV blaming RCCL?  They should be ashamed of them-self! It was terrible that she lost her life, and the step grandfather will live with it for the rest of his life.  The parents should have moved on ( which I am sure will be a hard thing to do) and look to other things that might help them find peace.

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