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CDC going after Nassau ūüôĄ


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15 minutes ago, princevaliantus said:

That is inaccurate. The CDC is only making a recommendation to either not travel to the Bahamas and/or make sure if you are going to travel to the Bahamas that you are fully vaccinated. CDC is just doing their job. They are aware that they have no jurisdiction in a foreign country.

No it’s a scare tactic in my opinion. They had one small spike in cases 3 days ago (129), last 2 days zero cases. Sounds like a testing dump. Their numbers go from high to zero multiple times. 

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I believe Jill to be right. They are having a tantrum they can't control the whole world. Today the Congress added a bill to the Senate one trying to bring this to an end. It doesn't bod well to have multiple states suing then bills from both house and senate looking to clip their wings.  Bahama numbers very low. Their peak came in October with five times as many active cases as they have now (2500 vs 450). Most days have no deaths. About 40 new cases a day nation wide...  CDC are behaving like spoiled children who's toys are being taken away... 

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1 hour ago, princevaliantus said:

That is inaccurate. The CDC is only making a recommendation to either not travel to the Bahamas and/or make sure if you are going to travel to the Bahamas that you are fully vaccinated. CDC is just doing their job. They are aware that they have no jurisdiction in a foreign country.

ūüĎé

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2 hours ago, deep1 said:

I believe Jill to be right. They are having a tantrum they can't control the whole world. Today the Congress added a bill to the Senate one trying to bring this to an end. It doesn't bod well to have multiple states suing then bills from both house and senate looking to clip their wings.  Bahama numbers very low. Their peak came in October with five times as many active cases as they have now (2500 vs 450). Most days have no deaths. About 40 new cases a day nation wide...  CDC are behaving like spoiled children who's toys are being taken away... 

Those bills will probably go nowhere. If one looks closely the signers of each bill they are from only one party. Being a Floridian I am wondering why the entire contingent of house members didn't sign on.

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8 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

Those bills will probably go nowhere. If one looks closely the signers of each bill they are from only one party. Being a Floridian I am wondering why the entire contingent of house members didn't sign on.

There are dozens attached to each... I've only seen Blumenthal and that whack from Arizona  opposed... 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jill said:

No it’s a scare tactic in my opinion. They had one small spike in cases 3 days ago (129), last 2 days zero cases. Sounds like a testing dump. Their numbers go from high to zero multiple times. 

If you want to call it a scare tactic fine I won't argue with you on that, but it is a scare tactic with absolutely no teeth at all.  Like another poster already pointed out there are over 160 countries on the very high list of places Americans should avoid and yet the government can't stop a single American from traveling.  Take for example Mexico which has been on the list since the early stages of this pandemic and yet there are more airlines, flying more aircraft, filled with Americans to Mexico's beach destinations than ever before. 

The State Department adding countries to a do not travel list even during a health emergency is simply nothing more than an advisory.

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Some will argue the CDC is "just doing their job" adding countries to the don't travel to list. I look at it this way. Even though the advisory does offer that if you're going to travel to the Bahamas get vaccinated before you go is contrary to their general guidance that if you are vaccinated, you can travel...... with certain additional recommendations that are also contradicted elsewhere .... when you return from travel get tested, or don't get tested if you don't have symptoms.

I mean, the CDC can't keep up with their own set of advisories that contradict each other.  Exhibit one in my argument is above.

The CDC, formerly the premier infectious disease center in the world, has rendered themselves irrelevant by their overly pretentious and behind the science travel recommendations.  They are the butt of numerous jokes. Just go to their web site and try to find concise guidance on how we should be conducting ourselves right now to return to some degree of normalcy as the number of vaccinated American soars. 

 

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Here's another one ....... Greece is a CDC designated Level 4 - don't travel there country. Greece just opened to international travelers including Americans today. If you can show proof of vaccination or a negative COVID test you can travel to Greece and don't have to quarantine. Are Greek public health officials idiots? Nope, the Greek government has correctly ascertained that the cost of restricting tourism in Greece, fearing SARS2 transmission from travel associated mobility, is higher than the cost of dealing with the low risk that vaccinated or even unvaccinated tourists with proof of being COVID free will spread SARS2.

This is rational and pragmatic. The Greek government could stand as a shining example to the US government and the irrationality of the US CDC driving the Biden Administrations irrational public health policy that is locking down the cruise industry.    

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50 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Here's another one ....... Greece is a CDC designated Level 4 - don't travel there country. Greece just opened to international travelers including Americans today. If you can show proof of vaccination or a negative COVID test you can travel to Greece and don't have to quarantine. Are Greek public health officials idiots? Nope, the Greek government has correctly ascertained that the cost of restricting tourism in Greece, fearing SARS2 transmission from travel associated mobility, is higher than the cost of dealing with the low risk that vaccinated or even unvaccinated tourists with proof of being COVID free will spread SARS2.

This is rational and pragmatic. The Greek government could stand as a shining example to the US government and the irrationality of the US CDC driving the Biden Administrations irrational public health policy that is locking down the cruise industry.    

I think you've said before the bureaucrats and scientists at CDC cannot properly bound their perception of risk. "One can never be too careful" is practically their motto, and I'm concerned that people are beginning to adopt that old axiom into their own lives to an unsustainable degree... We used to consider people who were several degrees of "too careful" beyond normalcy as having some sort of obsessive disorder.

What I've been looking for lately is what the FDA is going to do with Pfizer's request to expand the EUA into adolescent children given the apparent success of a very small trial. Pfizer submitted the request 10 days ago and I haven't heard anything from FDA. If you'll remember, during the first VRBPAC meeting that led to Pfizer's EUA, four pediatricians voted against approval because of the inclusion of 16 year olds. To them, putting the entire vaccine on hold for a few more weeks to resubmit without 16 year olds was more important than the alternative (and keep in mind we were at the peak when thousands were dying every day). Their justification was essentially that there is no emergency for 16-17 year olds that could justify giving them the vaccine under EUA instead of waiting for full step-down trials or full approval. Now the ball is back in FDA's court, where they essentially get the chance to say "there's no emergency for kids" again while CDC pretends like the sky is falling and no one can get back to normal until little Susie gets her shots.

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10 hours ago, LizzyBee23 said:

I think you've said before the bureaucrats and scientists at CDC cannot properly bound their perception of risk. "One can never be too careful" is practically their motto, and I'm concerned that people are beginning to adopt that old axiom into their own lives to an unsustainable degree... We used to consider people who were several degrees of "too careful" beyond normalcy as having some sort of obsessive disorder.

What I've been looking for lately is what the FDA is going to do with Pfizer's request to expand the EUA into adolescent children given the apparent success of a very small trial. Pfizer submitted the request 10 days ago and I haven't heard anything from FDA. If you'll remember, during the first VRBPAC meeting that led to Pfizer's EUA, four pediatricians voted against approval because of the inclusion of 16 year olds. To them, putting the entire vaccine on hold for a few more weeks to resubmit without 16 year olds was more important than the alternative (and keep in mind we were at the peak when thousands were dying every day). Their justification was essentially that there is no emergency for 16-17 year olds that could justify giving them the vaccine under EUA instead of waiting for full step-down trials or full approval. Now the ball is back in FDA's court, where they essentially get the chance to say "there's no emergency for kids" again while CDC pretends like the sky is falling and no one can get back to normal until little Susie gets her shots.

Yes! I also believe a certain segment of our population is approaching going off the deep end. A¬†fully vaccinated acquaintance recently posted that she and her husband finally ate at a restaurant ‚Äúdon‚Äôt worry! We ate outside!‚Ä̬†
 

These are the same people that have now been conditioned to avoid Level 4 countries and if you do visit a restaurant and eat inside or travel to a Level 4 country you’re labeled reckless and putting others in danger. It’s past ridiculous in my opinion. Life is full of choices but I fear our freedom of choice is being smothered to put it mildly. 

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Unfortunately, the CDC is guided more by politics than public health and science. The CDC has become another hammer to wield by whatever administration is in control in order to match their agenda.

And its sad to see the hypocrisy of those that ignore most of CDC guidance and suggestions on other matters (smoking, obesity, etc) but yet take CDC Covid recommendations as 100% Gospel that is never to be questioned and strictly adhered to 

 

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Yesterday, as most of you that follow this know, the US State Department listed 80 countries that they do not recommend traveling to (see Matt's post above). I assume this is based on the Level 4 designations of most of these 80 countries by the US CDC. So, what is the actual risk of travel for Americans who have been vaccinated? It appears the CDC says you can travel safely. For an hour on a plane, 5, 12? We know that time of exposure is a factor in the risk of becoming infected. Basically, the CDC's own advice appears to be contradictory.

We also know that the risk of infection in vaccinated persons is low; I posted elsewhere that the chance of reinfection is somewhere around 1 in 11000 using the CDC data they published last week (5800 reinfections out of 77 M vaccinated). If the risks of getting re-infected after vaccination is that low, the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from a reinfection must be close to zero. https://www.biospace.com/article/covid-19-infection-after-vaccine-is-rare-but-possible-cdc-says/#:~:text=Out of the 5%2C800 who,hospitalized to receive additional care. 

Meanwhile, here are your risks of dying from all causes listed from highest to lowest. The closest risk to that of getting re-infected after vaccination (not dying from it, just getting re-infected) it is getting electrocuted (1:13,000). https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/

Now it's not the job of the CDC to do risk analysis but that this listing came from the State Department suggests inter-agency coordination. Approval of the list may or may not have involved the Executive. I suspect it did. I've read plenty of articles from reliable sources that suggest the apparent position of the Biden administration that keeps the fear of COVID level high is purposeful. For what purpose is unclear but speculation involves such ideas as a desire to shape human behavior in ways that prevent potential virus spread to a new liberal government's wish to expand its control over US citizens.

The bottom line for me, a vaccinated senior, is I'll do my own risk assessment and travel internationally or domestically as I choose, as countries allow me to do so, being responsible when traveling by any conveyance. My concern is that businesses offering ways to travel will fear legal liability for negligently carrying me to where I want to go when the US State Department has warned against doing that.

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16 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I've read plenty of articles from reliable sources that suggest the apparent position of the Biden administration that keeps the fear of COVID level high is purposeful. 

End of pandemic means an ends to justify spending bills. Just as in previous administration, they were motivated as well by pandemic politics during an election year. 

This is evidenced by seeing multiple times where the current CDC director came out with positive claims about schools being able to be re-opened and vaccinated people being able to spread Covid or get Covid. We see where the CDC Director's comments were walked back from direction of the Administration. 

While politics are being played and the US Citizenry was subjected to year long human experimentation via lockdowns that we will suffer consequences for many years after Covid has faded away. And to bring it back to cruising, the CDC is choosing to ignore data from cruises that sailed safely during the pandemic and subjecting US ports to continued economic loss. It was never meant for unelected health officials to set public policy but yet here we are. 

If the CDC continues to cling to the no sail order until Oct 31 from US ports or make the conditions unrealistic for cruise ships to follow, it will be interesting and telling to see how the cruises in the summer from Caribbean ports go with Covid. Imagine being an unemployed or underemployed cruise affiliated US worker to watch this over the coming summer. Politicians are supposed to do risk analysis and set public policy but somehow some politicians cling to a zero covid worldview. Perspective has been lost. For example, is it worth bankrupting towns in Alaska and the resulting economic and social damage done to their populace to keep cruising closed down in the US?  

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These are good points, UNCFanatik. Your point that the CDC should not be in a position to actually make Public Health Policy, to wit, closing ports to cruise ship operations, is one of the claims in the Law Suit brought by the State of FL. That port closures have gone on for an extended period exceeds the authority granted in the original laws that authorize the CDC to recommend limiting port transit to the DHS when an infectious disease risk exists from it. The law says nothing about year long closures being OK. They appear to be unlawful.

Also worth noting is that the bills being introduced in Congress intended to rescind the CSO in it's entirety actually re-write the statutes that granted the authority decades ago. At least there are Congressional Reps that understand this stuff. But the wheels of government turn slowly.

Something that perplexes me is that the state of FL has not requested an expedited or emergency hearing on their suit or if they have it was not granted. I'm speculating that the parties may be negotiating with the US Justice Department assuring resolution without a court case being heard. The resolution may be forthcoming from the CDC/DHS somehow gracefully backing down.

Fain's video yesterday claiming RCL will be sailing from US ports and maybe Alaska  "this summer" may be an indication that the sort of thing I'm suggesting might happen above is happening....... again "the wheels ......"

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