ONECRUISER Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Fuzzywuzzy said: Balconies will be next. Wasnt that long ago when I started Cruising Royal ships didnt even have Balcony cabins.... Ann Worth and Carlos A. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thman Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Umm.. I'm not sure if that was me that I could hire an attorney so quickly and file suite against RCI. I'd be grief stricken and trying to come to grips with planning a funeral that I should never have to be planning. From the news reports it now gives me the sense that the family is now focused on the almighty $$$ rather than getting to the truth which maybe they already know. RCI won't be commenting or giving the family any answers until the company attorney's weigh in. Such a tragic loss. RWDW1204, BunnyHutt, Ann Worth and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, 12thman said: Umm.. I'm not sure if that was me that I could hire an attorney so quickly and file suite against RCI. I'd be grief stricken and trying to come to grips with planning a funeral that I should never have to be planning. From the news reports it now gives me the sense that the family is now focused on the almighty $$$ rather than getting to the true which maybe they already know. RCI won't be commenting or giving the family any answers until the company attorney's weigh in. Such a tragic loss. Hundreds of lawyers probably contacted them, the ambulance chasing type. Probably planted some seeds that may not be financially motivated in concept, except for the lawyer's motivation who will take a big cut of any settlement or award. Fuzzywuzzy, RWDW1204, Mitch and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstephensi Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Less than 48 hours and already lawyer-ed up. Not feeling as much pity as yesterday for the family's loss. Nicolas LaBarre, RWDW1204, Cruisin' Queen and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thman Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Still I've had to use attorney's and I've never had an attorney say you should file suit today! Obviously if that's true then the attorney is only looking for a payday and not the interest of the family. Now the family gets to relive in every detail of what happened TWICE! Once in deposition and again in court. The company attorney's will use ever single word they have said and say from this point forward to win the case. This will literally take years to resolve all the while the family has to relive this everyday because they are now suing RCI. Been there done that and it's really not worth it!! The toll it takes on your emotions and mental stability is something that one talks about when you sue. RWDW1204 and Cruisin' Queen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellcee Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, wstephensi said: Less than 48 hours and already lawyer-ed up. Not feeling as much pity as yesterday for the family's loss. One thing has nothing to do with the other. They're experiencing extreme grief over losing their child and the lawyer is running with it. I don't know enough about the situation besides the news and a few articles so I'll reserve my unnecessary opinion. At the end of the day they lost a child - no matter who's fault it is. Skid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pima1988 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 My husband told me about this last night. We actually have a 2 yr old grand daughter and another granddaughter due while we are probably on the cruise. We could immediately feel for the grandfather. The original story we read was it was a balcony. We could relate to the grandfather in one way, the age of the child they will wriggle a lot. However, not trying to be callous to the family, our very next thought was why on earth would you get so close to the balcony with the little one? Now the story is that it was in the kids play area and a window was open. Maybe my hubby and I are the conservative grandparents, but there is no way we would pick her up without tapping on the glass to make sure it is closed first. My heart breaks for the entire family, but as a grandparent I don't know how my husband and I emotionally would get past this, even with intense therapy. The guilt will never leave him, and I am so blessed to still be madly in love with him, seeing his pain would just kill me too. I am sure that the grandfather loved that little girl very much. I am sure he never thought about her wriggling. He just wanted to see her smile, afterall that is the joy of being a grandparent....make them smile and hand them back to their parents. My bet is Royal will settle out of court. The reality is they have insurance for this reason. However, no money that the family ever receives will not change how they feel on her birthday, on Christmas, and every vacation they ever take again. Just my opinion, for me, I would just want them to pay the burial costs and get me back home so I could start the healing process if that is even possible. mom2mybugs, RWDW1204 and ellcee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 I don't recall any ship having a kids play area near the windows. I suspect that is the media misreporting the deck plans. Typically the ships have seating areas along the windows, there is no specific kids play areas there. Sometimes these areas have tables and chairs for eating and sometimes it's simply chairs. The windows are tinted and it's very obvious when a window is open both from a visual perspective but also from sounds plus feeling of air moving through the window. It's apparent by many different sensory inputs. Let's face it, the glass and tinting is old and never so clean so that you can mistake glass from open window. I've never walked in this area and been surprised that a window was open. I've never thought to myself "I had no idea that window was open". I still struggle to understand how the grandfather didn't notice an open window. Carlos A., mom2mybugs, JohnK6404 and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyHutt Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, twangster said: I don't recall any ship having a kids play area near the windows. I suspect that is the media misreporting the deck plans. Typically the ships have seating areas along the windows, there is no specific kids play areas there. Sometimes these areas have tables and chairs for eating and sometimes it's simply chairs. The windows are tinted and it's very obvious when a window is open both from a visual perspective but also from sounds plus feeling of air moving through the window. It's apparent by many different sensory inputs. Let's face it, the glass and tinting is old and never so clean so that you can mistake glass from open window. I've never walked in this area and been surprised that a window was open. I've never thought to myself "I had no idea that window was open". I still struggle to understand how the grandfather didn't notice an open window. The lawyer is the one who is publicly stating it was in a kids area. The only thing I can think he may be talking about would be a splash pad of some sort, but I am not familiar with this ship, or class of ships. IME, however, all windowed areas on pool decks are seating, not play areas. That’s just common sense factoring into the design. To go back to the comment above about the number of people who fall overboard every year, I don’t doubt that. In fact, there was a crew member who fell overboard on the Carnival Victory last week - the same day we were sailing through the same waters on Majesty. But I am not aware of anyone (adult or child) falling out of an open window. Ann Worth and Cruisin' Queen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1guynz Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, twangster said: I don't recall any ship having a kids play area near the windows. From the CNN report the lawyer actually said "Why in the world would you leave a window open in an entire glass wall full of windows in a kids area?". As other reports seem to suggest it is the Windjammer I think he means why would you leave a window open in an area where kids are present. I don't recall spaces where you can open windows but honestly I haven't paid that much attention in the past. I would think it just as likely another passenger opened the window than anyone from RCI so I dont know that you can blame a cruise line. To me this just sounds like a tragic accident in which a whole set of unfortunate circumstances aligned to create a horrible outcome. Cruisin' Queen and Ann Worth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 The attorney is describing the family being in the H2O zone and that the windows are in this play area. He admits he hasn't been on the ship so he's basically taking what the family is telling him and proceeding on that basis. Cruisin' Queen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 The attorney also stated ...at any given time we have around 100 lawsuits going against Royal Caribbean. mom2mybugs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK6404 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Not sure if anyone familiar with Freedom can tell from these screen captures from the news report showing the start of the investigation exactly where this is on the ship. It looks like there are a few windows open... Bottom line, only after an adult lifts a child that high (estimating 4 feet or so above the deck) in the air could they possibly fall out. Unless you have extremely poor eyesight and cannot feel a breeze it's blatantly obvious when a window is open. Why would you even think of placing a child up against a glass/plexiglass pane in the first place? How is that cute or funny? You can also see all of the tables and chairs right behind the investigators... When we were in the Solarium on Allure, I immediately noticed the open windows (I recall they were higher of course) that they opened for circulation. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to notice them. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1150533/royal-caribbean-cruise-ship-freedom-of-the-seas-death-baby-girl-san-juan-puerto-rico Cruisin' Queen, Kirsten, Skid and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 hours ago, Jolly Ogre said: I heard on the news today that the family is blaming RCCL due to having open windows that are hard to see next to the fixed glass ones. I'm trying to understand how he did not notice that the window was open. I've heard reports that he couldn't tell there was no glass. I have a boat, never is the boat right up against the dock. A cruise ship is no different. The story changes that she fell into the water, she fell on a lower deck, she fell on the dock. This story keeps changing in a matter of hours. Shame on the lawyer to stand and look at a camera and bluntly say "It's all RCL fault that this happen". I'd like to see security footage of this. Can anyone tell me if there are security cameras on the ships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobroo Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 A show of hands— how many people strongly believe that Grandpa’s Seapass might have been used to purchase alcoholic beverages before this tragedy? Lets see how many votes for contributory negligence we can get!!! shaydav19, Cruisin' Queen and Manana Chkadua 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, bobroo said: A show of hands— how many people strongly believe that Grandpa’s Seapass might have been used to purchase alcoholic beverages before this tragedy? Lets see how many votes for contributory negligence we can get!!! Attorney has stated grandpa does not drink. He held a press conference and this question was asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyHutt Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Mitch said: I'm trying to understand how he did not notice that the window was open. I've heard reports that he couldn't tell there was no glass. I have a boat, never is the boat right up against the dock. A cruise ship is no different. The story changes that she fell into the water, she fell on a lower deck, she fell on the dock. This story keeps changing in a matter of hours. Shame on the lawyer to stand and look at a camera and bluntly say "It's all RCL fault that this happen". I'd like to see security footage of this. Can anyone tell me if there are security cameras on the ships. There are security cameras *everywhere.* This was a public area. They would have also been on the dock. I’m about 98% confident that RCCL has footage of the incident but is not releasing to the public (understandably). The family is grasping at straws. Cruisin' Queen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose City Cruiser Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 I thought the glass are slightly tinted with a blue hue to it. Jmccaffrey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1guynz Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 At the end of the day until the investigation is complete and the full facts are known it is easy to speculate and jump to incorrect conclusions. In New Zealand I think it would be very hard to find the cruise line negligent in this case as there is no obvious risk. Where does negligence begin? If somebody spills a drink on the deck and I come along and slip on it and break my leg 10 minutes later, is the cruise line negligent for not cleaning it up in a timely manner even if they don't know its there. Although people have fallen off ships in the past, this this the first I have heard to a circumstance like this so I struggle to see how a cruise line could reasonably be expected to predict this outcome. If you had to take into account every risk factor you wouldn't have stairs people could fall down, open balconies or open areas anywhere on a ship. While tragic, I think the chance of it happening again in our lifetime is extremely remote. cruisestuff, RWDW1204 and Kirsten 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brobbins246 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Does anyone know if the family's attorney is a defense or personal injury (ambulance chaser) or both? When I first heard they had representation, I assumed it was to protect the grandfather during the investigation, which would make sense if he's facing possible prosecution. But I don't know if defense attorneys are in the business of also filing lawsuits against major corporations, so that makes me wonder. Or maybe they have more than one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyHutt Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Brobbins246 said: Does anyone know if the family's attorney is a defense or personal injury (ambulance chaser) or both? When I first heard they had representation, I assumed it was to protect the grandfather during the investigation, which would make sense if he's facing possible prosecution. But I don't know if defense attorneys are in the business of also filing lawsuits against major corporations, so that makes me wonder. Or maybe they have more than one. Maritime law and personal injury... https://lawyers.justia.com/lawyer/michael-a-winkleman-1507627 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, F1guynz said: At the end of the day until the investigation is complete and the full facts are known it is easy to speculate and jump to incorrect conclusions. In New Zealand I think it would be very hard to find the cruise line negligent in this case as there is no obvious risk. The US is very litigious by nature. It's very common to file lawsuits with intentions of an out of court settlement. Often it's less expensive for a company to settle rather than face prolonged legal battles that cost significant sums paid to lawyers to defend. This attorney has stated they ALWAYS have around 100 active cases in play against Royal. This is one firm. How many other firms have 100 cases filed? How many cases do they have filed against other cruise lines? It's a full time job for a firm full of lawyers. This attorney claims he is the reason why Royal has lifeguards on it's ships now. In this case the attorney has already started presenting his case in the press conference. He pointed out that there are no signs warning that a window might be nearby. He is also working hard to establish this occurred in a kids play area. Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/royal-caribbean-cruise-ship-death-indiana-family-of-girl-attorney-speaks-today-2019-07-09/ The father captured pictures and videos of the area before leaving the ship that the attorney was offering to the media. Attorney press conference : RWDW1204 and Jmccaffrey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK6404 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 We just saw the story on TV on ABC news. The glass near the H2O zone is tinted green as you look from the inside out and this occurred during bright daylight... how the heck do you not see that the window is open??? It’s pretty dark tint! Their attorney stated the grandfather lifted the toddler up onto the railing so she could get right up against the glass... she liked to be up against glass (they showed a picture of her at one of her siblings hockey games pressed up against the board glass). They also stated they wanted to see the surveillance video before they decide if they will go forward with the suit against RC... https://abcnews.go.com/US/indiana-toddler-died-cruise-ship-fall-grandpa-thought/story?id=64212610&cid=clicksource_4380645_null_twopack_image ... and here is where I whole-heartedly disagree with their attorney... standing on the hand railing pushing on the glass ??? Yes... it's very unreasonable and extremely irresponsible to say the least. I never knew hand railings were meant for standing on... and toddlers could not possibly reach those railings without help from an adult! Quote: "Why would you ever in a kids play area put windows that passengers can open?" Winkleman said. "I don't think it's unreasonable to put a child there thinking there's glass." Jmccaffrey, Kirsten, RWDW1204 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootoni3 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 This is ridiculous to blame the cruise line for the grandparents negligence. I just recently went on my first RCCL and we noticed every open window immediately. Why? Let’s see.... the windows are tinted and there is a breeze!! It can be hot has poop outside but you still feel a breeze coming through. The pool is a play area, not a window and not a railing. You do not ever place a child on a rail and say play. There are lounge chairs and tables.... where is it a play zone? I feel terrible for the family and can never image the loss of a child. Put the blame where it needs to be - the grandfather not the cruise line. Manana Chkadua, RWDW1204 and Jmccaffrey 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretts173 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 I know we are all RC fans but these people have been through hell, they dont want to believe it's anyone they loves fault and need to blame someone, Its human nature. Give the poor people time to grieve which would be a hell of a long time. 2 days of comments ridiculing the grandfather for dangling the child out the window, now if thats not true I dont see any of them apologising. Show some compassion. Momof4crazytocruise 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan McCaffrey Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 It is a horrible tragedy that this child lost her life. But where was the common sense in what the grandfather did? There is an obvious breeze from the open window. The open window was high off the ground. What in his mind made him think hanging a child out any window was acceptable? Perhaps he should not have been entrusted with the supervision of such a small child in the 1st place. Royal Caribbean is at no fault here!!! Instead of hiring an ambulance chasing lawyer right away, you’d think planning a funeral would take priority. cruisestuff, Jmccaffrey and Cruisin' Queen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose City Cruiser Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Are charges pending against the grandfather? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rose City Cruiser said: Are charges pending against the grandfather? Not clear at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB1 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 The accusations against the cruise line are most likely all smoke and mirrors. The grandfather may likely face prison time for criminal negligence. After a tragedy like this, a reasonable person would seek out a defense attorney. I would not doubt it if this attorney was found to try to deflect blame. What other defense would they have. There were plenty of witnesses and likely a recording. It's probably the best they could come up with to help grandpa. Jmccaffrey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 I agree on the deflection approach. This particular attorney has a practice built around suing cruise lines, he's not a defense attorney. A defense attorney would likely need to be local in San Juan. WAAAYTOOO and RWDW1204 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLMoran Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 Quote "Why would you ever in a kids play area put windows that passengers can open?" Winkleman said. "I don't think it's unreasonable to put a child there thinking there's glass." Point of order: In the photos posted here of the area where it happened, I don’t see a window pane a passenger can open. All the square panels are either glassed in and immovable, or completely open. Seeing as this area on deck 11 is mostly open space to begin with, not much point in having a window that opens and closes and thus the design that we see. JohnK6404 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whizbank Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 I can understand why they would get an attorney. 1000's of news outlets and people have already weighed in and tried and convicted the grandfather based on 2 line news articles. The only chance they have of controlling the narrative is to have someone present their side to the media and public. And, this way they can grieve out of spotlight while he deals with public and media for them. No matter the blame or fault its a tragic death that wasn't intentional but has probably destroyed this whole family's lives. bretts173 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB1 Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 This is true but is it right to bring harm to the company that did nothing wrong? Orange Crush, RWDW1204 and Cruisin' Queen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBolton Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 Praying for this family. Praying also for the crew on Freedom of the Sea's. My wife and I have cruised on Freedom 3 times since 2003. Freedom and the crew is one of the best of the 10 RCCL cruise ships we have been on. I know these window and I am positive that this is Truly a very tragic accident. As a grandfather, I can't wait to bring my 4 yr old granddaughter on her first cruise. I know it will be RCCL and I hope it will be Freedom of the Sea's. Leaving Aug. 11 on similar ship Liberty of the Sea's . RWDW1204 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogalthorpe Haywood Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, bretts173 said: I know we are all RC fans but these people have been through hell, they dont want to believe it's anyone they loves fault and need to blame someone, Its human nature. Give the poor people time to grieve which would be a hell of a long time. 2 days of comments ridiculing the grandfather for dangling the child out the window, now if thats not true I dont see any of them apologising. Show some compassion. I don’t think the judgement would be so harsh if the family didn’t hire a law firm that sues royal regularly immediately after the tragedy happened. RWDW1204, CoupleOfCruisers, cdixon22 and 4 others 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruisin' Queen Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 It's shocking to see (on social media) how many people don't understand that the ship is not unsafe -- they only see an accident in which the child died. The Grandfather who placed the child on the railing is at fault and will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life. A tragedy for all involved. My children travel with me and are never placed on any surface where they could fall overboard. I book balconies and they are not allowed out there alone. Common sense.... ChessE4, RWDW1204, Jmccaffrey and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 Very tragic , I hope the family will be able to recover and continue with their lives, I understand why they are trying to shift the blame to the cruise line. Based on the current information its hard for me to understand how someone will mistake an open window to be a glass wall. If today we will blame the cruise ship for heaving open windows maybe tomorrow someone will blame them for getting diabetes due to all the food which is served in the buffet ? twangster, PattiHere, Fuzzywuzzy and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWDW1204 Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, JLMoran said: Point of order: In the photos posted here of the area where it happened, I don’t see a window pane a passenger can open. All the square panels are either glassed in and immovable, or completely open. Seeing as this area on deck 11 is mostly open space to begin with, not much point in having a window that opens and closes and thus the design that we see. If remembered right, the windows are like a sliding glass door. If you look at the video of daytime, you can tell some windows are open and the window next to it is slightly darker. Did the grandfather put her on the railing next to a window that was closed but not latched? He turns his head for a brief instant and that little girl leaned onto it, it slid it open and she fell out? Tragedy? Yes. Negligence on RC part? Guess we'll find out, but not to us. No matter lawyer's intent, still pray for the family. They've got enough to deal with besides us piling on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruisin' Queen Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, RWDW1204 said: He turns his head for a brief instant and that little girl leaned onto it, it slid it open and she fell out? I don't think the window would open this easily. I've tried opening windows on a ship and it takes a lot of effort to get it to move. Grandparents have a hard time saying no. If the child wanted to be at the window, he could have picked her up and not paid attention to the position of the glass. We may never know what happened or what he was thinking. It's all very, very sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 The attorney references a hockey rink and lifting her to the top of the boards so she could see through the glass. This is apparently critical to his strategy since they have distributed a photo of it and he has mentioned it several times. Yet the picture the attorney is distributing of her at a hockey rink shows her standing on the floor and leaning on the glass at the hockey rink. (Some news outlets have cropped the photo so you see just her upper body and hands on the glass.) The ship also has glass starting at floor level. She could have stayed on the floor on the ship, looked through the glass just like at the hockey rink and banged on it all she wanted to just like at the hockey rink, safely standing on her feet. There was no need to pick her up so she could see out the window. Why pick her up to place her on the railing so she could look outside when she could already see outside from the floor? It makes no sense. The view isn't any better from the railing than it is from the floor, unless she wanted to look out the open window in which case they knew the window was open and he simply lost his grip somehow. There is a lot that just doesn't add up with the story. How is it the local police as first responders came to the conclusion that they did? He must have said something or explained it in the anxiety of the moment that the police investigators picked up on. It will be interesting to see how local authorities handle this. Kirsten, RWDW1204, SpeedNoodles and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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