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Fully Vaccinated Cruise = No Kids


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21 minutes ago, tonyfsu21 said:

Ok, I figured if NCL adopted that rule then RC would soon follow. I’m really hoping the kids can still sail when we cruise in Nov (provided any ships are sailing). 

I was thinking the same thing. Reality is we will have to abide by what ever they decide and seriously I am disgusted and sick and tired over stressing about this mess already. We always sail as a family also and with a 15 year old if they institute what NCL has I will just avail myself to the refunds and be done with it. I will miss sailing but I will continue to concentrate on my blessings and schedule other types of Holidays. Eventually we will sail again, but if not we have made amazing life long memories and those travelling without kids will get to enjoy sailing with out kids, and I believe that may be most enjoyable to them. I don't want to begrudge anyone as the situation is what it is. I will fight fiercely for my monies back though, I will not donate them to RCI. Albeit about 5,000.00 FCC missing (given for sailing & then can't be located) I know they will appear with @Sharlahelp. I am resigned to just rolling with things now, I want to feel joy so that is what I am going to do. 

I will miss it though......

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I can't see one cruise line (NCL for example) handling this one way while the rest of the industry handles it another. Money talks and it wouldn't take long for this to change. 

Any chance of the CDC getting involved in this?

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While families may not like the NCL approach, it has boxed the CDC in and can be used against the CDC in the Florida lawsuit.

When the CDC doesn't respond or declines the NCL request it's another example of the CDC double standard and how they are targeting one industry while letting others operate with only simple recommendations.   

Well played NCL.  Sorry for the families impacted.

 

 

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4 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I think banning kids and families will backfire big time for NCL. And it'd be even worse for RC to change their mind now.

I think this is  posturing by NCL (not an intentional swipe at family vacations).   NCL is the most draconian steps to provide optics of a more robust risk mitigation  strategy and see if the CDC says no again.   Continue to emphasis the hypocrisy of not following their stated positions regarding vaccinated travelers.  Here's a repeat of the gov'ts back to sail decision tool (reposted).

 

Tool1.001.jpeg

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4 hours ago, twangster said:

@twangster Was this all part of the plan all along??? Things that make you go hmmm...

 

When the CDC doesn't respond or declines the NCL request it's another example of the CDC double standard and how they are targeting one industry while letting others operate with only simple recommendations.   

Well played NCL.  Sorry for the families impacted.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I think banning kids and families will backfire big time for NCL. And it'd be even worse for RC to change their mind now.

How is it going to backfire? They have stated it is their policy until October. So either they don’t sail at all till October and see zero revenue or (if it is somehow approved) they get three months worth of revenue sailing without kids. Seems like a no brainer to me.

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8 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I think banning kids and families will backfire big time for NCL. 

Cruisers have short term memories.  For every cruiser offended by this there is another looking forward to sailing kidless cruises. 

Pfizer has applied for EU approval in the 12-15 age range.  NCL knew soon enough vaccines would expand age eligibility and they aren't sailing tomorrow.

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 7:00 PM, Vancity Cruiser said:

How is it going to backfire? They have stated it is their policy until October. So either they don’t sail at all till October and see zero revenue or (if it is somehow approved) they get three months worth of revenue sailing without kids. Seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't believe the letter actually had an end date -- "These stringent requirements will remain in place until public health conditions allow for the implementation of more lenient protocols."  If you read "until October" somewhere, it's possible the assumption was that this would be until the "CDC Framework for Conditional Sailing Order for Cruise" ends on Nov 1st.

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SilverSea is implementing a vaccine required approach for all guests.

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/04/12/silversea-will-require-all-cruise-ship-passengers-be-fully-vaccinated

While this likely doesn't impact too many family cruisers it is interesting in the context that SilverSea is part of RCG and like NCL the Healthy Sail Panel should be involved with their guidance.

With Pfizer applying for approval for the 12-15 age group the number of families impacted for US based cruises grows smaller with each vaccine expansion.

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

While this likely doesn't impact too many family cruisers it is interesting in the context that SilverSea is part of RCG and like NCL the Healthy Sail Panel should be involved with their guidance.

I agree. That's now 2 cruise lines from RCG that have announced/proposed requiring vaccine for all guests.

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There's mounting evidence from Michigan, among other states, that teens and kids are becoming infected with the more transmissible UK variant at fairly high rates. Fleshing out the actual numbers and comparing them to a baseline in the under 20 age group though is hard.

I've accessed several data bases and what is being said by Governor Whitmer in MI and echoed by Dr. Walenski of the CDC isn't precisely born out in the data I'm looking at. Youth sports, for example, is being touted by Governor Whitmer as a prime source of viral spread and increased new cases in MI. But, from a baseline, it's not under 18s - I would suppose that's who participates in youth sports programs -  that this increase is being seen. It is predominantly in the 20-39 yo group. So????? I've become very skeptical of COVID related pronouncements coming from politicians and the CDC. 

The issue for cruise lines and kids is not one of increasing disease burden in this age cohort (hospitalizations and deaths), it is one of the risks of undetectable viral loads in early infections that get missed by molecular (PCR) or antigen testing as part of a pre-boarding health screening process and then asymptomatic transmission aboard ship as the infection progresses. It's also one of the lines evaluating the risks versus the benefits obtained of allowing families with kids under 18 to sail in the current environment.

My take is that allowing under 18s to sail without vaccination (or 16s if you want to include soon to be available Pfizer vaccines) and with only a negative PCR test to board, does increase the risk of a shipboard COVID outbreak but probably only among other kids who boarded. It's still an outbreak, it should be a medical concern worthy of trying to avoid even though it's not likely to be one that produces serious illnesses. I also believe that the risk of transmission from an infected kid to a vaccinated older adult is very low. However, on any re-start scenario approved by the CDC and within the next few months the best strategy is to not take that risk of allowing kids to sail.

So, if I were providing input to the Healthy Sail Panel that involves decisions about sailing in the current circumstance, I'd say vaccines should be required for al. passengers. At some point, COVID will be a manageable infectious disease similar to influenza, norovirus or the common cold. Kids can sail then. That point gets moved up as kids and everyone else gets vaccinated. But until either of those points are obtained, I'd advice against unvaccinated persons being allowed to board regardless of a pre-boarding  negative test result.  

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28 minutes ago, JeffB said:

There's mounting evidence from Michigan, among other states, that teens and kids are becoming infected with the more transmissible UK variant at fairly high rates. Fleshing out the actual numbers and comparing them to a baseline in the under 20 age group though is hard.

 

 

Michigan is doing mandatory weekly school testing for high school athletes.  Other states have ramped up random school testing as they go back in the classroom. So no surprise they're finding more youth cases. And since the UK variant is becoming the dominant variant (I haven't seen any on the ground evidence that it's any more transmissible. See Texas as an example, as they have among the highest rates of the UK variant), then this amps up the headlines.

 

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I get not allowing kids on cruises. I would hope RC just refunds us if that happens instead of continuing with the endless FCC madness. We'll never be able to sail as our kids are very young and the vaccine won't be available to them anytime soon. So what can I do with FCC that I can't use on them? While I would love to, going on a cruise without them is not an option. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:21 AM, tonyfsu21 said:

Ok, I figured if NCL adopted that rule then RC would soon follow. I’m really hoping the kids can still sail when we cruise in Nov (provided any ships are sailing). 

It would only to get the first cruises off the dock.   The lines are willing to take draconian measures just to get started more quickly.  Would probably change in the fall.  

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It will be interesting to see how the cruises that Royal are going in June from ports in the Caribbean do with children under 16 not being required to be vaccinated but just provide negative Covid test to see if there will be any Covid spread. I know Royal will need to appease the CDC Gods with possible vaccine requirements with no exceptions well before June if July is a possibility. But still I am looking forward to see the data from the June Caribbean sailings

However, it seems like a logistical nightmare to make vaccines a requirement even for children for restart in July. How many families will have to cancel and then have their cabins rebooked with vaccinated adults. And then the question becomes how long will vaccines for all passengers with no exception be the rule. How far out is Royal willing to effectively ban families with children from their cruises? 

I realize the name of the game is to get cruising right away again and fully vaccinated cruises may be short term answer but how long would it take casual cruisers with families to come back? Especially if Carnival or other competitors relax their vax rules before Royal.  

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Thought I'd post some interesting and good news today. We need that.

Read an interesting Bloomberg News piece on government's authority to mandate vaccines. A good deal of it dealt with Governor Desants' EO banning "vaccine passports." His intent was to ban such requirements for a patron to enter any business operating in FL under a FL business license. There was lots of misinformation about this pretty narrowly focused EO as you'd expect that implied it had broad effect and would include cruise lines. I had argued it won't as I understood it. The debate continues - mostly because controversy is newsworthy. Let's clear some things up:

  • A requirement to show proof of vaccine for entry wouldn't violate HIPA as has been claimed. That is because the entity requiring such information isn't a healthcare entity.
  • According to the lawyer quoted in the Bloomberg piece, "there is no statutory, regulatory or constitutional bar to that (a requirement to show proof of vaccination for entry) to happen as long as it is applied in a non-discriminatory manner."

I think that last legal opinion is definitive on it's face. Clearly that's not going to end the debate. What I think is clear is that the cruise lines have looked at the legal implications of requiring vaccinations to board and have decided that it is necessary layer of many other mitigation measures and requiring it is legal. Plan on getting vaccinated if you want to board a cruise ship when cruising restarts. I like that

Desantis was quoted as apparently implying the cruise industry would be required to comply with his ban. I can't find that direct quote. I also think that given his strong support for the restart of cruising, if he actually did say that, there are plenty of ways for him to side-step it.

In other vaccine news is you haven't heard it already, Pfizer has announced "a third shot (a booster) will likely be required 12 months from the date of your second shot." I never thought there was any question that SRAS2 would become seasonal much like influenza and that annual shots would be recommended to blunt it's effects. SARS2 is with us. I think this is good news. It indicates Pfizer thinks SARS2 will become seasonal and immunity will wane over time. It will need to be boosted. Like the influenza virus, its genomic makeup will vary. The one thing we have going for us is that these mRNA vaccines have 90-90% efficacy with effectiveness, even in the face of variants, around 80% effective in preventing death, serious illness and transmission. Flu vaccines are between 35 and 50% effective. 

A CBS's 60 Minutes segment aired on Sunday. It featured a scientist who works within DARPA (The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) who described two pretty amazing advancements that "would stop the next pandemic in its tracks." (Link belwo) The reason I mention this is that most of us are suffering from pandemic fatigue and have lost some hope for the future. We'll let me tell you scientists and researchers haven't lost hope and continue to advance technologies and therapeutics in ways unimaginable a decade ago.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/last-pandemic-science-military-60-minutes-2021-04-11/

Unrelated to COVID, my daughter is such a researcher. She lives and works in Switzerland. Her work involves supervising a research project that builds synthetically derived tissues that when assembled become an organ. One can then test the effect of a therapeutic without involving human trials. The net result is speeding the introduction of advanced therapeutics through the regulatory process. A kidney and liver have already been assembled. Proof of concept is underway.  

Have nice day! ?

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2 hours ago, JeffB said:

Desantis was quoted as apparently implying the cruise industry would be required to comply with his ban. I can't find that direct quote. I also think that given his strong support for the restart of cruising, if he actually did say that, there are plenty of ways for him to side-step it.

Look for his Port of Miami live event when he first announced the CDC lawsuit.  A reporter asked his about the EO and cruise ships, or at least we think they did because the reporter wasn't picked up by the microphones very well.

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I think HIPAA has context related to storing and accessing healthcare data beyond actual healthcare providers.  3rd party and cloud providers for healthcare companies for example.

I have to complete HIPAA training since I work around systems that may contain patient data even though I don't have an account on the system that can access any records.

So long as Royal or any business doesn't store patient healthcare data merely looking at a piece of paper or an app like passport doesn't equate to storing patient data.  Asking a question doesn't invoke HIPAA regulations unless you store the answer, even then there is more to it.

Users on many internet forums and social media platforms are posting their vaccine status.  Those platforms are NOT subject to HIPAA.

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9 minutes ago, twangster said:

I think HIPAA has context related to storing and accessing healthcare data beyond actual healthcare providers.  3rd party and cloud providers for healthcare companies for example.

I have to complete HIPAA training since I work around systems that may contain patient data even though I don't have an account on the system that can access any records.

So long as Royal or any business doesn't store patient healthcare data merely looking at a piece of paper or an app like passport doesn't equate to storing patient data.

I also have to take part in HIPAA training because of my work in IT at a Healthcare company.   The best way I've been able to explain HIPAA to people is like this.

 

HIPAA says that your "doctor" cannot share your medical information, it does not prevent you from sharing your medical information.

 

So yeah, if anyone asks you about anything medical you can freely share your own information (not your family members, without thier consent).  It's not like any company is going to be linked to your medical record, you would basically have to attest to it or show your card (or something similar)

 

 

Also, please stop writing HIPPA! ? 

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@twangster@Matt @Sharla Recommendation for hotel close to embarkation? (Adventure sailing) We usually stay at the Hilton right there but there are no rooms available for the 3 of us. I am just trying to do some leg work to get an idea of total costs on top of FCC's, before I bother Sharla. To waste her time is not an option. To clarify, do we have to fly in the same day as the sailing or can we get there a day before? I wondered if the Covid tests we submit to in the States would be accepted for entering the Bahamas as well as embarking the ship? I want to understand everything before commitment, I have a knack for screwing things up, after 32 years of marriage I try to avoid the "I told you so" as much as possible. LOL!! Lastly, we step off the ship, must go straight to the airport with our negative Covid tests from Royal or can we depart the next day? I wish Celebrity would honor Royal FCC's I would not mind spending extra time there if there was a sailing, Bahamas, not so much. MY HEAD IS SPINNING.....

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You can get there the day before. The only gotcha is if you're traveling with kids under age 10 who will (as of now at least) require a negative PCR test to board, but not to get in the country. Still no word yet on the lead time of the testing window to get on board and how it coincides with the Bahama 5-day test window

 

All indications are that the test you get to disembark will count towards any Bahamas re-entry a well a USA re-entry.  You could depart the next day, or even several days later. Just that disembarkation test may then be too old to count towards your USA re-entry.

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On 4/12/2021 at 3:23 PM, JeffB said:

There's mounting evidence from Michigan, among other states, that teens and kids are becoming infected with the more transmissible UK variant at fairly high rates. Fleshing out the actual numbers and comparing them to a baseline in the under 20 age group though is hard.

I've accessed several data bases and what is being said by Governor Whitmer in MI and echoed by Dr. Walenski of the CDC isn't precisely born out in the data I'm looking at. Youth sports, for example, is being touted by Governor Whitmer as a prime source of viral spread and increased new cases in MI. But, from a baseline, it's not under 18s - I would suppose that's who participates in youth sports programs -  that this increase is being seen. It is predominantly in the 20-39 yo group. So????? I've become very skeptical of COVID related pronouncements coming from politicians and the CDC. 

The issue for cruise lines and kids is not one of increasing disease burden in this age cohort (hospitalizations and deaths), it is one of the risks of undetectable viral loads in early infections that get missed by molecular (PCR) or antigen testing as part of a pre-boarding health screening process and then asymptomatic transmission aboard ship as the infection progresses. It's also one of the lines evaluating the risks versus the benefits obtained of allowing families with kids under 18 to sail in the current environment.

My take is that allowing under 18s to sail without vaccination (or 16s if you want to include soon to be available Pfizer vaccines) and with only a negative PCR test to board, does increase the risk of a shipboard COVID outbreak but probably only among other kids who boarded. It's still an outbreak, it should be a medical concern worthy of trying to avoid even though it's not likely to be one that produces serious illnesses. I also believe that the risk of transmission from an infected kid to a vaccinated older adult is very low. However, on any re-start scenario approved by the CDC and within the next few months the best strategy is to not take that risk of allowing kids to sail.

So, if I were providing input to the Healthy Sail Panel that involves decisions about sailing in the current circumstance, I'd say vaccines should be required for al. passengers. At some point, COVID will be a manageable infectious disease similar to influenza, norovirus or the common cold. Kids can sail then. That point gets moved up as kids and everyone else gets vaccinated. But until either of those points are obtained, I'd advice against unvaccinated persons being allowed to board regardless of a pre-boarding  negative test result.  

This is a great resume about vaccinations and sailings but did you know in Europe and Asia cruise lines have been sailing with unvaccinated guests for many months now?

Royal Caribbean has now passed more than 100 000 passengers in its cruises from Singapore and MSC and TUI have been sailing from Europe for many months with only one or two family break outs which were swiftly contained.

RC is sailing from Cyprus this summer on Jewel and kids are allowed on already with a negative PCR test. I fully expect there to be the usual temp checks testing and social distancing rules in place and I don't see any problems arising on their sailings. I think the American cruise industry is doing too much hand wringing about all of this and hope this bill to limit the CDC in cruise ship protocols works as they really have went far beyond their remit as far as cruising is concerned. 

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