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There actually is an update to the CSO


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I'm glad you mentioned this, because this is the source of the problem with the CDC. The CDC is still looking at cruises through the prism of March 2020. That is like saying airplanes and ai

Ever flown through the LaGuardia airport?  Pretty much a prison.  Small confined spaces, low ceiling, hot, smelly, packed with zero chance of social distancing.  Marked safe by CDC standards.  

An additional comment on my post above ......... Most of us, including myself, have little understanding of the complexity of various US government regulations. I'm working from distant memory he

19 minutes ago, twangster said:

So every American is supposed to be vaccinated or have an appointment in May yet the CDC wants the cruise lines to vaccinate port workers?

I'm confused.

 

 

The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with 😉

 

 

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8 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with 😉

 

 

That is just sad. At least it makes me not regret booking a Nassau cruise!

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12 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with 😉

 

 

Clearly the CDC doesn't believe our President and thinks his vaccination plan is a bunch of...

Joe Biden Debate GIF by CBS News

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I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache  that could make an onion cry.  Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? 

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7 minutes ago, deep1 said:

I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache  that could make an onion cry.  Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? 

The original CSO had a generic "You have to have agreement with local health officials to handle any issues"

 

This clarifies what "issues" are any actually what needs to be in place to handle them. It also throws in "hey try to get your people vaccinated, too" as an after thought.

 

What I'd love to know is how far along the cruise lines had these agreements in place or if since the original guidance was so vague it wasn't worth the discussions.

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11 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

The original CSO had a generic "You have to have agreement with local health officials to handle any issues"

 

This clarifies what "issues" are any actually what needs to be in place to handle them. It also throws in "hey try to get your people vaccinated, too" as an after thought.

 

What I'd love to know is how far along the cruise lines had these agreements in place or if since the original guidance was so vague it wasn't worth the discussions.

They need to cut the verbiage  by a lot and get really specific as to dates and straight forward step by step instructions as to exactly what the f it is that they want and a very specific time line...  

 

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I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too.

First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports.  Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context.

Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for  cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time.  Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted.  Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update.

As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. 

The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time.  

I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO.   

I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking.

It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO.

I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July.

   

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58 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too.

First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports.  Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context.

Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for  cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time.  Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted.  Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update.

As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. 

The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time.  

I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO.   

I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking.

It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO.

I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July.

   

Wow, well said. Thank you.

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My brain is hurting after only reading a portion of if this updated guidance.   On the one hand I'm happy the CDC is feeling the heat and has finally done something, but on the other hand from what I've read so far there are still a lot of built in roadblocks.  Clearly the CDC has been sitting on this additional guidance for months I guess they thought the cruise industry would just take it laying  down and they have inserted roadblocks that will make it difficult but not impossible for cruising to resume in the US in July or August.

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This update is your classic...

Be Careful Wish GIF by Apple TV

Let me translate this latest update.

  • You really shouldn't think about trying to sail before Nov. 1st but if you are that stupid here is the first mountain you'll need to move to do so.  We'll let you know about the next mountain you'll need to move in the next update once you are finished moving the first mountain, or you could just wait until Nov. 1st, wink, wink.   
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9 hours ago, deep1 said:

I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache  that could make an onion cry.  Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? 

Translation to plain english -

 

NO

 

 

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8 hours ago, JeffB said:

I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too.

First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports.  Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context.

Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for  cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time.  Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted.  Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update.

As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. 

The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time.  

I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO.   

I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking.

It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO.

I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July.

   

So the CDC is the perfect example of a bloated, useless government entity.

They have had a bunch of high priced scientists and lawyers spend the entire duration of the pandemic writing up a massive complicated legal document that they are finally starting to release just in time for the whole thing to be rendered worthless by the fact that the pandemic is ending ...

 

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8 hours ago, JeffB said:

I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO.   

167988980_2933877000157661_7218209095451

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58 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

So the CDC is the perfect example of a bloated, useless government entity.

They have had a bunch of high priced scientists and lawyers spend the entire duration of the pandemic writing up a massive complicated legal document that they are finally starting to release just in time for the whole thing to be rendered worthless by the fact that the pandemic is ending ...

 

This is what bureaucrats do.  Its why the government never does anything well. They are not comfortable making decisions, they like to enforce things.

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An additional comment on my post above .........

Most of us, including myself, have little understanding of the complexity of various US government regulations. I'm working from distant memory here on an article I read a long time ago that the US is one of the least friendly nations to business interests due to the complex and difficult to understand  regulatory environment. Well, the glimpse we got of it from the CDC is an eyeopener confirming that finding. 

I mention this only to say that, while I've never read the regulations that airlines, food and the trucking industries, for example, have to deal with, I'm going to assume those regulatory documents are as complex as what the CDC just issued on Friday.

This isn't an excuse for the CDC. Like some here who have expressed opinions critical of the government's role in regulating everything that goes on in the US, I'm with you. But it is a reality that right now. We have to accept the impact of that reality on the cruising life we all want to return to.

I don't want to politicize this post breaking forum rules but, I'll try to say this politely:  Americans need to be wary of the expansion of government into our lives and businesses that the Public Health Emergency Declaration allowed. Tell your elected officials you're concerned about making sure we back out of this gracefully as the pandemic comes to a close.  

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BREVARD COUNTY • PORT CANAVERAL, FLORIDA – Capt. John Murray, Port Canaveral CEO, expressed his displeasure with the latest  announcement by the CDC on Friday by issuing the latest phase of the conditional sail order for cruise ship operators.

 

“For a year now, we have been working closely with our cruise partners and directly with the CDC to find a way forward for the return of cruising from Port Canaveral,” said Capt. John Murray.

“Just today, CDC announced that vaccinated Americans could safely travel internationally. We’re disappointed that this guidance for the cruise industry appears to be nothing more than an incremental step in a far-reaching process to resume passenger sailings in the U.S. with no definitive or target start date.”

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Guess it's not a surprise after observing how the agency operates.  (Under an assumption of proceeding with no risk)  They will eventually publish that everyone who touches the ship will need to be vaccinated and I'm sure will even reach back to the suppliers. Expected we wound need to start with vaccinated crew and guests, but as I've pondered, you're really not testing safety  protocols much with immuned samples of people.  You're testing the effectiveness of vaccines on a floating hotel.  Maybe if the expanded cruising from non-US ports show good results a few steps might be modified.

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