smokeybandit Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 Gives some added guidance to the part of the CSO about local agreements (haven't read through it enough yet to see if it makes things more clear or just muddier). Also some vaccine guidance https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html SpeedNoodles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 Skimming over it, I can see why Bayley was concerned that amendments to the CSO would be outdated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 So every American is supposed to be vaccinated or have an appointment in May yet the CDC wants the cruise lines to vaccinate port workers? I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanS Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 I'd love to hear more about this... it almost seems like nothing has happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jticarruthers Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, twangster said: So every American is supposed to be vaccinated or have an appointment in May yet the CDC wants the cruise lines to vaccinate port workers? I'm confused. The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with twangster, AshleyDillo and RyanS 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanS Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, jticarruthers said: The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with That is just sad. At least it makes me not regret booking a Nassau cruise! Biff215 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 12 minutes ago, jticarruthers said: The CDC wrote this back in November, before there were vaccines .... it just made it out of all the committees and working groups required to sign off on it. It might be slightly obsolete but dont worry the recommendations from the group that met in December should be voted on shortly and we can see what they came up with Clearly the CDC doesn't believe our President and thinks his vaccination plan is a bunch of... RyanS, Ogilthorpe, coneyraven and 2 others 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinFC Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Still not getting hyped about this until ships are actually sailing. CDC has dragged this out for so long, I have lost faith that they will do anything in a timely manner. Linda R 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep1 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache that could make an onion cry. Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, deep1 said: I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache that could make an onion cry. Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? The original CSO had a generic "You have to have agreement with local health officials to handle any issues" This clarifies what "issues" are any actually what needs to be in place to handle them. It also throws in "hey try to get your people vaccinated, too" as an after thought. What I'd love to know is how far along the cruise lines had these agreements in place or if since the original guidance was so vague it wasn't worth the discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep1 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: The original CSO had a generic "You have to have agreement with local health officials to handle any issues" This clarifies what "issues" are any actually what needs to be in place to handle them. It also throws in "hey try to get your people vaccinated, too" as an after thought. What I'd love to know is how far along the cruise lines had these agreements in place or if since the original guidance was so vague it wasn't worth the discussions. They need to cut the verbiage by a lot and get really specific as to dates and straight forward step by step instructions as to exactly what the f it is that they want and a very specific time line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, deep1 said: They need to cut the verbiage by a lot and get really specific as to dates and straight forward step by step instructions as to exactly what the f it is that they want and a very specific time line... That would make too much sense deep1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too. First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports. Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context. Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time. Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted. Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update. As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time. I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO. I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking. It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO. I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July. RWDW1204, Linda R, Tanner and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruising With JT Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 58 minutes ago, JeffB said: I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too. First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports. Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context. Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time. Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted. Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update. As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time. I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO. I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking. It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO. I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July. Wow, well said. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonOasis Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 My brain is hurting after only reading a portion of if this updated guidance. On the one hand I'm happy the CDC is feeling the heat and has finally done something, but on the other hand from what I've read so far there are still a lot of built in roadblocks. Clearly the CDC has been sitting on this additional guidance for months I guess they thought the cruise industry would just take it laying down and they have inserted roadblocks that will make it difficult but not impossible for cruising to resume in the US in July or August. sammy79 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 We are going to let you do test cruises.....we just dont know when!!!! Big Tule and Tanner 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 This update is your classic... Let me translate this latest update. You really shouldn't think about trying to sail before Nov. 1st but if you are that stupid here is the first mountain you'll need to move to do so. We'll let you know about the next mountain you'll need to move in the next update once you are finished moving the first mountain, or you could just wait until Nov. 1st, wink, wink. RWDW1204, Ray, danv3 and 2 others 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jticarruthers Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 9 hours ago, deep1 said: I have just tried to read the statement. No closer to understanding and a headache that could make an onion cry. Is it open and we have to document that we meet local health requirements? Is it closed and we now have more hurdles to jump over? Its clear that not only was this penned by lawyers but government ones at that. Jeeziz! Worse than sitting through a home owners association meeting!!! Any chance we have anybody in our ranks that could translate it to English? Translation to plain english - NO deep1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jticarruthers Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 8 hours ago, JeffB said: I've read the entire CDC update to the CSO. It has to be understood in the context of the original NSO and the initial CSO issued right after the NSO expired in October, '20. I went back and read that 88 page monster too. First, both documents are incredibly complex and reveal the extent of interagency involvement in the NSO and CSO. The Modification issued this afternoon outlines the steps to take the cruise industry from Phase 1 to Phase 2A. Phase 1 dealt with crew health status on ships operating in international waters and wishing to call on US ports for supplies and fuel. Phase 1 extended and codified the color coding system that had evolved, described these and required cruise ships to be coded as green before they could port in US ports. Phase 1 has been applicable since that system was codified, I believe, sometime in late December shortly after the issuance of the CSO. What's happening now makes sense in that context. Phase 2A lists, in great detail, a requirement for cruise lines and port authorities to enter into separate contract agreements (by cruise company and cruise ship) for doing typical cruise ship embarkation and debarkation things as well as handling a passenger or passengers with suspected or confirmed COVID without stressing local and federal resources - like happened in March and April. There are recommendations that cruise ports figure out how they are going to handle multiple ships embarking and debarking in a single port with an eye towrd setting limits to how many ships can operate from a port at one time. Everything you'd expect would be required is required to insure the chaos that occurred as countries imposed lock-downs last March isn't repeated when cruise ship operations are green-lighted. Some of the chaos involved the refusal by port authorities to allow cruise ships to port and disembark passengers. This can't happen - ships with sick passengers cannot be barred from porting - and that is in the CDC phase 2A update. As well there were some pretty harry medevac scenarios carried out at sea for seriously ill passengers. You'll need to read the document in it's entirety to see all the requirements. Given my limited understanding, outside of observing them myself, of what's involved when a cruise ship with passengers ports, what's in the most recent CDC update is complete and extensive. I don't have any problems with what the CDC is requiring in Phase 2A and, IMO, it is definitely moving the process of getting cruise ships operating again. One can argue it's typical government over-reach and unnecessary regulatory intervention. Fine. Complain all you wish to. It won't matter. The path forward is clear and it involves a lot of stuff many of us think is unnecessary but it is what it is - accept it. The stuff released today certainly doesn't come close to what I think people wanted - a green-light to go ahead and start cruising your hearts out. That IS NOT going to happen. It's a process that is going to take a while to work through. My gut tells me it will move quickly considering the scope of what's required but I'd say a July restart could happen if the lines get through phase 2A quickly but there will be only a few ships per company starting out and this will slowly expand over time, a long time. I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO. I would not be surprised at all that the cruise lines, having experience with such agreements between themselves and ports that have already authorized cruise ship operations in Europe, Israel, Asia and now the Caribbean, can comply quickly with all the technical aspects that were revealed today and identified as Phase 2A. That includes submitting these contract agreements to the CDC for review and approval on a company and then on a ship by ship basis. I've also read that port authorities in FL have been doing extensive preparations to restart cruise ship operations. It seems to me all parties should move ahead quickly in satisfying the CDC requirements for 2A. I also could be harboring a lot of wishful thinking. It's noteworthy that in several places within the modification document, there is mention of considering the role of vaccines and vaccinations in fashioning the contracts. For example, the CDC requires that ports establish standards for embarkation and debarkation within terminals that provide for mitigation measures consistent with those required by the CDC for congregate, housing facilities or federal transportation hubs (e.g., similar to prisons or government provided/subsidized housing, airports, bus terminals, train stations). In the case of cruise ports, that would be masks and distancing for porters, guest relations staff and all port employees that might have contact with arriving or departing passengers. Certainly, if everyone involved in embarkation and debarkation at a port is vaccinated, that changes the dynamic of mitigation measures and the CDC acknowledges that. But mandating vaccinations for port authorities is left up to individual ports. That's the CDC acknowledging that there are legal implications here for requiring employees to be vaccinated to work. As I said, I'm all for this, just like I'm for mandatory vaccinations for children to attend school or adults to go to college. Israel has made it very clear to their citizens, "you'll be left behind" if you don't get vaccinated. YMMV, JMO. I think the cruise lines were caught of-guard with the CDC release late on Friday afternoon before Easter weekend. The CDC was definitely feeling the heat. It's clear to me that the requirements detailed in Phase 2A didn't just get done in a week. They are incredibly robust and cover all manner of things that involve reducing the risk of a COVID outbreak on a cruise ship producing the scenes we saw last March and into April. I think the lines will get their act together quickly after some obvious scurrying today and will get through Phase 2A as quickly as they can .... and the CDC handles their review role expeditiously. I'm going to take a wait and see approach. Let's give the parties time to absorb all of this and react. I'll start ranting again if the entire month of April passes without some indication that stuff is getting done. I expect this is going to affect June sailings you might have booked from US ports. I think those will be cancelled sometime this month. July cruises are at risk but there's a chance, especially those after mid July. So the CDC is the perfect example of a bloated, useless government entity. They have had a bunch of high priced scientists and lawyers spend the entire duration of the pandemic writing up a massive complicated legal document that they are finally starting to release just in time for the whole thing to be rendered worthless by the fact that the pandemic is ending ... stevendom57 and wordell1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 8 hours ago, JeffB said: I believe it will go like this after Phase 2A is completed: 2B involves test cruises, crew and ship's company only, and a by ship certification process for that. Phase 3 involves test cruises with select live passengers, phase 4 is closely monitored revenue sailings. This isn't defined anywhere I could find in the two documents (the CSO and today's mod of it). I'm reading between the lines and I may have missed it in that monster 88 page CSO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonOasis Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Welcome to the CDC........ can't you tell we are moving very fast on this issue. Big Tule, Ray and RWDW1204 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordell1 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 58 minutes ago, jticarruthers said: So the CDC is the perfect example of a bloated, useless government entity. They have had a bunch of high priced scientists and lawyers spend the entire duration of the pandemic writing up a massive complicated legal document that they are finally starting to release just in time for the whole thing to be rendered worthless by the fact that the pandemic is ending ... This is what bureaucrats do. Its why the government never does anything well. They are not comfortable making decisions, they like to enforce things. Goodwood248 and cruisellama 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 An additional comment on my post above ......... Most of us, including myself, have little understanding of the complexity of various US government regulations. I'm working from distant memory here on an article I read a long time ago that the US is one of the least friendly nations to business interests due to the complex and difficult to understand regulatory environment. Well, the glimpse we got of it from the CDC is an eyeopener confirming that finding. I mention this only to say that, while I've never read the regulations that airlines, food and the trucking industries, for example, have to deal with, I'm going to assume those regulatory documents are as complex as what the CDC just issued on Friday. This isn't an excuse for the CDC. Like some here who have expressed opinions critical of the government's role in regulating everything that goes on in the US, I'm with you. But it is a reality that right now. We have to accept the impact of that reality on the cruising life we all want to return to. I don't want to politicize this post breaking forum rules but, I'll try to say this politely: Americans need to be wary of the expansion of government into our lives and businesses that the Public Health Emergency Declaration allowed. Tell your elected officials you're concerned about making sure we back out of this gracefully as the pandemic comes to a close. Goodwood248, cruisellama, jticarruthers and 4 others 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 BREVARD COUNTY • PORT CANAVERAL, FLORIDA – Capt. John Murray, Port Canaveral CEO, expressed his displeasure with the latest announcement by the CDC on Friday by issuing the latest phase of the conditional sail order for cruise ship operators. “For a year now, we have been working closely with our cruise partners and directly with the CDC to find a way forward for the return of cruising from Port Canaveral,” said Capt. John Murray. “Just today, CDC announced that vaccinated Americans could safely travel internationally. We’re disappointed that this guidance for the cruise industry appears to be nothing more than an incremental step in a far-reaching process to resume passenger sailings in the U.S. with no definitive or target start date.” jticarruthers and cruisellama 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisellama Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Guess it's not a surprise after observing how the agency operates. (Under an assumption of proceeding with no risk) They will eventually publish that everyone who touches the ship will need to be vaccinated and I'm sure will even reach back to the suppliers. Expected we wound need to start with vaccinated crew and guests, but as I've pondered, you're really not testing safety protocols much with immuned samples of people. You're testing the effectiveness of vaccines on a floating hotel. Maybe if the expanded cruising from non-US ports show good results a few steps might be modified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danv3 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 2 hours ago, twangster said: You really shouldn't think about trying to sail before Nov. 1st but if you are that stupid here is the first mountain you'll need to move to do so. We'll let you know about the next mountain you'll need to move in the next update once you are finished moving the first mountain, or you could just wait until Nov. 1st, wink, wink. This seems about right...until the CDC extends the CSO beyond November 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, danv3 said: This seems about right...until the CDC extends the CSO beyond November 1. I would say that is the sum of all fears right now jticarruthers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 There's a lot of liability at stake for both sides in cruise lines putting together these unnecessary shore agreements. That's going to take a long time for the lawyers to do their things. Then you have to wait for the CDC to bless them to even start test cruises. I don't see how cruising starts this summer at all. JasonOasis, Tanner and sammy79 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: There's a lot of liability at stake for both sides in cruise lines putting together these unnecessary shore agreements. That's going to take a long time for the lawyers to do their things. It's almost like you read the minds of the CDC team who authored the update. jticarruthers, mjb1127 and Tanner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Switching my July cruise from Allure to Adventure is proving to be the right move more and more each day. teddy, danv3, Biff215 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancity Cruiser Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 While the entire industry realizes that the CSO is outdated and no longer valid (with the rollout of vaccines and the info and proof that cruises can be conducted safely in many other parts of the world) the CDC is blissfully ignorant of this. They are sticking with their outdated protocols and not budging. I wonder if Miami mayor stands by her comment ‘I am impressed by the Director’s knowledge of the industry, and her empathy to the economic hardships that the loss of this business has caused’? emmef, 4ensic and danv3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancity Cruiser Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 So under the ‘purpose’ section of the technical instructions is a sentence that states ‘for the purpose of these instructions, CDC considers cruise ships to constitute a residential congregate setting’. In the CDC’s updated COVID instructions yesterday they excluded non-healthcare congregate settings from the update. They describe non-healthcare congregate settings as prisons and detention Centers. So the CDC in their infinite wisdom classify cruise ships the same as prisons and detention centers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Time for DeSantis to circle the wagons and lawyer up. Bring Pam Bondi in to help AG Moody. I’m tired of this crap. Snotarni and coneyraven 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Disneyworld should be a residential congregate setting, too, then. emmef and bryresangel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Let's be clear. Here is how the CDC defines shared (also known as congregate) housing: ......shared housing includes a broad range of settings, such as apartments, condominiums, student or faculty housing, national and state park staff housing, transitional housing, and domestic violence and abuse shelters. Special considerations exist for the prevention of COVID-19 in shared housing situations .... I'd say a cruise ship at sea for an extended period of time where people congregate, sleep and eat constitutes a shared housing or congregate setting. Disney parks, airline travel, concerts and sporting events don't fall within CDC's definition of congregate settings. So, there's guidance for these places - a ton of it in normal times and 5 tons of it for the current pandemic times . It is very likely that all the CDC had to do was cut and paste some of verbiage that's been on the books for infection control in congregate settings that heretofore didn't include cruise ships. They do now. Then they added MORE. Look, I get this. Would you pillory the CDC for infection control that applies to a hospital? Surgery suites? Isolation wards? I've seen this stuff. It is immensely complicated and vitally important to stop the spread of infections in a hospital setting. While it's true, cruise ships aren't hospitals and infection control onboard is going to be different than in a hospital but, given the chaos in March of 2020, I can see why the CDC is being overly cautious here. That does not mean I like it. Practicing medicine within a hospital system and following infection control rules can be a giant pain in the ass. But, man, the consequences of ignoring this sort of stuff can be deadly. I personally think that what's being done with COVID related infection control aboard a ship is insufficiently bounded by adequate application of risk assessment tools. That's another matter entirely and what I think matters not. RWDW1204 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 I don't see hotel or resorts on that list. And that's what a cruise ship is. All those other examples are high density, possibly low budget or cleanliness, living conditions among unrelated people. There's a clear and obvious difference with a cruise ship, and it's embarrassing the CDC goes out of its way to try to lump cruises in with those others. 4ensic, bryresangel and cruisellama 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 18 hours ago, Vancity Cruiser said: So under the ‘purpose’ section of the technical instructions is a sentence that states ‘for the purpose of these instructions, CDC considers cruise ships to constitute a residential congregate setting’. Can you share the link where they mention this? I'm totally missing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted April 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 25 minutes ago, Matt said: Can you share the link where they mention this? I'm totally missing it https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html Second to last paragraph in the Purpose section. Matt and Tanner 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 19 hours ago, JeffB said: given the chaos in March of 2020, I can see why the CDC is being overly cautious here. I'm glad you mentioned this, because this is the source of the problem with the CDC. The CDC is still looking at cruises through the prism of March 2020. That is like saying airplanes and airports are unsafe from terrorists because you only look at airline security pre-9/11. No cruise ship is going to operate in 2021 like it did in March 2020. I'm not sure how many more times cruise lines can state their extensive and unparalleled new health protocols before the CDC stops using March 2020 as the baseline. jticarruthers, Jill, Vancity Cruiser and 8 others 7 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancity Cruiser Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 2 hours ago, smokeybandit said: https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html Second to last paragraph in the Purpose section. Thanks for jumping on this. I just woke up here on the west coast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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