Conditional Sail Order - Extended or Expired?

[wordell1]

Anyone hearing about whether this gets extended? It expires next Sunday.

I doubt that a lot would change right away, but this needs to happen before the cruise lines can make reasonable changes to get things back to normal as the pandemic winds down.

[smokeybandit]

99% chance it gets extended. 50% chance it becomes more strict

[Matt]

I expect whatever decision is reached, it takes to the last minute to be announced.

This lack of a decision yet by the CDC is partly to blame why Royal Caribbean hasn't released November protocols

[Neesa]

10 minutes ago, Matt said:

I expect whatever decision is reached, it takes to the last minute to be announced.

This lack of a decision yet by the CDC is partly to blame why Royal Caribbean hasn't released November protocols

I am anticipating the protocols for November 2021 for our Thanksgiving 2021 sailing. I will and am able to comply with what is in place now, but my fingers are crossed for just a little less every month.  

My eDocs are all blank, @Sharla is looking into it but I am just a little concerned. Anyone else or is it just me? I did land a really great price back when we booked.

[twangster]

32 minutes ago, Neesa said:

My eDocs are all blank, @Sharla is looking into it but I am just a little concerned. Anyone else or is it just me? I did land a really great price back when we booked.

I've seen blank eDocs and discovered it was my browser.  Using a different browser worked.  YMMV.

[wordell1]

37 minutes ago, Neesa said:

I am anticipating the protocols for November 2021 for our Thanksgiving 2021 sailing. I will and am able to comply with what is in place now, but my fingers are crossed for just a little less every month.  

My eDocs are all blank, @Sharla is looking into it but I am just a little concerned. Anyone else or is it just me? I did land a really great price back when we booked.

Are you able to print the luggage tags?

[Neesa]

12 minutes ago, twangster said:

I've seen blank eDocs and discovered it was my browser.  Using a different browser worked.  YMMV.

Thanks so much, I did try this, I believe they were even blank for @Sharla but I so appreciate it.

8 minutes ago, wordell1 said:

Are you able to print the luggage tags?

No, not even luggage tags....sigh....

[Jennifer Burke]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I expect whatever decision is reached, it takes to the last minute to be announced.

This lack of a decision yet by the CDC is partly to blame why Royal Caribbean hasn't released November protocols

Wasn't the PHE extended for another 3 months? Wonder if CDC goes by that. I just want the masks gone for vaccinated people!!

[wordell1]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer Burke said:

Wasn't the PHE extended for another 3 months? Wonder if CDC goes by that. I just want the masks gone for vaccinated people!!

I agree!  That was the protocol on Adventure when the CDC wasn't involved so I'm hoping no masks on board would return quickly if Royal were setting their own protocols.

[sk8erguy1978]

28 minutes ago, Jennifer Burke said:

Wasn't the PHE extended for another 3 months? Wonder if CDC goes by that. I just want the masks gone for vaccinated people!!

 

21 minutes ago, wordell1 said:

I agree!  That was the protocol on Adventure when the CDC wasn't involved so I'm hoping no masks on board would return quickly if Royal were setting their own protocols.

I was on the second to last Adventure sailing where masks were mandated again. Honestly I was upset at first, one of the reasons for picking it was no masks. It wasn't that bad. A lot of venues were no masks required. Basically had to wear it from place to place (hallways, elevators, etc) didn't ruin the cruise for me.

I lost my mask on the pool deck and I made a dash to room for another. I missed that suggestion on the survey but a box of masks from outside area to inside for those "lost on pool deck" masks would have been nice.

Heck, even around the ship too, those disposable masks always have straps breaking.

Edited October 23, 2021 by sk8erguy1978
Clarify

[cruisellama]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

I've seen blank eDocs and discovered it was my browser.  Using a different browser worked.  YMMV.

What's interesting, mine were emailed in a pdf format this week so I didn't even log into my account.  Haven't sailed since early March 2020, so been awhile, can't remember if they were previously emailed.   I know in the past I have down loaded from my RCL account.

[twangster]

16 minutes ago, cruisellama said:

What's interesting, mine were emailed in a pdf format this week so I didn't even log into my account.  Haven't sailed since early March 2020, so been awhile, can't remember if they were previously emailed.   I know in the past I have down loaded from my RCL account.

Do you use a travel agent?

[Done]

Carnival Cruises extended their health protocols based off the current CDC sail guidelines so one could deduce Carnival believes it will be extended.

[Neesa]

21 minutes ago, cruisellama said:

What's interesting, mine were emailed in a pdf format this week so I didn't even log into my account.  Haven't sailed since early March 2020, so been awhile, can't remember if they were previously emailed.   I know in the past I have down loaded from my RCL account.

Mine were also sent in a PDF without logging into my account & yes they are still blank. I was just excited to print my luggage tags because I enjoy ANYTHING having to do with a sailing. Blank on my account and the PDF come on Royal IT get with it!

[cruisellama]

43 minutes ago, twangster said:

Do you use a travel agent?

Not on that one.   (Usually we do)

[WAAAYTOOO]

Sometimes my edocs will come to me directly in an email and sometimes I have to download them from the website.  Who knows why....

[TXcruzer]

Received my E-Docs this morning for Liberty November 21, complete with luggage tags

[MrMarc]

I think there is a 100% chance it is extended.  But my guess is that it won't change except for requiring children to be vaccinated since that should be approved next week for Pfitzer.  It seems to be working, so I do not think they will change it.  It would be interesting to see them remove the penalties and word it as a recommendation, which would end the Florida lawsuit as moot without a decision that could permanently affect them. 

[gatorskin76]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

I expect whatever decision is reached, it takes to the last minute to be announced.

This lack of a decision yet by the CDC is partly to blame why Royal Caribbean hasn't released November protocols

It’s really ridiculous that they haven’t released them IMO.  I have a Nov 21 sailing booked and I don’t know the protocols and can’t get a refund until they tell me what is 99.9% likely going to be the case.  They can hide behind it’s out of their control, but if it’s not extended are they really going to drop vaccine requirements?  So what are we really talking about some mask nuances.  Silly.

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, Canadian-Cruiser said:

Even if his is the case, the crew would still all be and generally the crew would feel more comfortable

You know, I had not even considered this.  Since very few are American, they don't have the political overlay that we do.  I wonder how they would feel about no masks for themselves and/or passengers.  I know they have done it on one ship, but it may be different fleetwide.

[UNCFanatik]

4 minutes ago, Canadian-Cruiser said:

I'd think they'd be very apprehensive if for some reason the guests didn't have masks and they were masked because as we all know, their on contract and a positive test due to an inadvertent interaction(s) with unmasked but fully vaccinated passengers could basically mean a lost of income or being sent home to their overseas countries without being able to get income. So for this reason as the crew is on board for six months or more and having their guests unmasked would be quite an apprehensive feeling for them and they'd probably not want to engage as much with unmasked guests. So while everyone here cites masks and so on, THINK about the crew and those crew members aka cabin attendants and cleaners from lower income countries. They do not have the same political overlay and all they want to do is make an income to remit to Indonesia, India or Phillipines.

 

What should be done about areas of the ship that are designated as fully vaccinated areas? 

1. Do you think crews in those areas feel apprehensive?

2. Do you think Royal should go with 100% masking on the ship regardless of vaccination status of guests?

How about dining room staff where guests regardless of vaccination status are all unmasked while dining

1. Do you think the dining room staff feel apprehensive?

And cabin attendants. Masks are not required in cabins. We know Covid is spread through aerosols. 

1. Do cabin attendants feel apprehensive when they enter a cabin right after a guest leaves that was unmasked where aerosols are still lingering in the air?

 

[MrMarc]

33 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

What should be done about areas of the ship that are designated as fully vaccinated areas? 

1. Do you think crews in those areas feel apprehensive?

2. Do you think Royal should go with 100% masking on the ship regardless of vaccination status of guests?

How about dining room staff where guests regardless of vaccination status are all unmasked while dining

1. Do you think the dining room staff feel apprehensive?

And cabin attendants. Masks are not required in cabins. We know Covid is spread through aerosols. 

1. Do cabin attendants feel apprehensive when they enter a cabin right after a guest leaves that was unmasked where aerosols are still lingering in the air?

 

None of us know, unless there is some crew following this.  If I were on the ship, those issues would bother me, because of coming into contact with so many different people increases their chance of getting it greatly.  So anything that would reduce those odds would be better.  They have more risk and exposure than the passengers do.  I don't think a lot of us, me included, had thought of the crew, and have been imposing our own views on them.    I wonder if they have a union or other group looking out for their interests, rather than having their situation be dictated by the comfort or discomfort and/or political views of the passengers. 

[wordell1]

32 minutes ago, Canadian-Cruiser said:

I'd think they'd be very apprehensive if for some reason the guests didn't have masks and they were masked because as we all know, their on contract and a positive test due to an inadvertent interaction(s) with unmasked but fully vaccinated passengers could basically mean a lost of income or being sent home to their overseas countries without being able to get income. So for this reason as the crew is on board for six months or more and having their guests unmasked would be quite an apprehensive feeling for them and they'd probably not want to engage as much with unmasked guests.

So while everyone here cites masks and so on about it not being a thing, THINK about the crew and those crew members aka cabin attendants and cleaners from lower income countries. They do not have the same political overlay as the cruise capital of the world; and all they want to do is make an income to remit to Indonesia, India or Philippines so the onus is on them more so than the guests to not get a breakthrough as that means a loss of income so regardless of whatever happens with mask policies, one can be sure that indoors regardless, the crew will be in masks for the foreseeable future; that probably will not be going away anytime soon for them as employees. So even if it becomes optional, I trust they would still see it as a a sign of caring for their well-being rather than as 'theatre'.

 

I'm pretty sure they just have to quarantine on the ship for 10 days - they aren't losing any income.  The crew is fully vaccinated and largely health young adults - not a group that needs to fear covid.

 

[gatorskin76]

12 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

None of us know, unless there is some crew following this.  If I were on the ship, those issues would bother me, because of coming into contact with so many different people increases their chance of getting it greatly.  So anything that would reduce those odds would be better.  They have more risk and exposure than the passengers do.  I don't think a lot of us, me included, had thought of the crew, and have been imposing our own views on them.    I wonder if they have a union or other group looking out for their interests, rather than having their situation be dictated by the comfort or discomfort and/or political views of the passengers. 

None of us know….enough said

[wordell1]

14 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

None of us know, unless there is some crew following this.  If I were on the ship, those issues would bother me, because of coming into contact with so many different people increases their chance of getting it greatly.  So anything that would reduce those odds would be better.  They have more risk and exposure than the passengers do.  I don't think a lot of us, me included, had thought of the crew, and have been imposing our own views on them.    I wonder if they have a union or other group looking out for their interests, rather than having their situation be dictated by the comfort or discomfort and/or political views of the passengers. 

I work in retail and have been dealing with the general public since the start of the pandemic - masked and unmasked.  I have no idea whether my customers are vaccinated, and they are certainly not covid tested immediately before they enter my store.  I work in one store, but stores and restaurants are open all over the US, and even the world.

Just like the crew, there is a small chance that I could be exposed to a live covid case and be within 6ft long enough to contract it - This is the reason that I chose to be vaccinated!  By doing so, I have reduced my risk to almost zero of having anything more than mild covid symptoms - I am no more worried about covid than I would have been 2 years ago about getting the flu.  I have a job to do and cruises to pay for - there is a very small risk, but I take it willingly.

 

[MrMarc]

22 minutes ago, wordell1 said:

I work in retail and have been dealing with the general public since the start of the pandemic - masked and unmasked.  I have no idea whether my customers are vaccinated, and they are certainly not covid tested immediately before they enter my store.  I work in one store, but stores and restaurants are open all over the US, and even the world.

Just like the crew, there is a small chance that I could be exposed to a live covid case and be within 6ft long enough to contract it - This is the reason that I chose to be vaccinated!  By doing so, I have reduced my risk to almost zero of having anything more than mild covid symptoms - I am no more worried about covid than I would have been 2 years ago about getting the flu.  I have a job to do and cruises to pay for - there is a very small risk, but I take it willingly.

 

And I and my customer's opinion is different.  That's why I don't think we can assume anything about what the crew would want.  I don't know that they would be honest if asked.  I'm just a little embarrassed that I had never thought about it until this thread.

[sk8erguy1978]

14 hours ago, MrMarc said:

I'm just a little embarrassed that I had never thought about it until this thread.

Me too. Thank you for bringing it up. 

[JeffB]

I just returned from a 14n west bound transatlantic crossing on Celebrity Apex. Up until a day before boarding, Apex had a no-mask policy outdoors and indoors. I received an email from Celebrity the day before the sail date announcing masks would be required, regardless of vax status, both indoors and outdoors except when dining or drinking.

I learned 2nd hand that the reason for this change was that on the sailing just before ours - 7n transit from Piraeus (Athens) via a few Greek Isle stops to Barcelona - there were 7 positive COVID tests among both passengers and crew. There were 56 close contacts identified and quarantined. 

First, cruise ships most likely have unpublished protocols that determine what mitigation measures are required aboard based on certain metrics or the COVID policies of nations they are calling on (BTW, Spain requires masking on all commercial conveyances and this may have been playing a part as well). In this case some number of positive tests among guests and crew may have triggered the indoor masking mitigation measure. Alternatively, mitigation measures within the EU suffer from a dizzying number of options. We had just sailed from Piraeus on Apex in August. Despite Greece formally requiring masks in doors in restaurants, bars, ferryrs and so forth, They weren't required in doors on Apex for that sailing. See the helpful link below to sort through these.

The reason I'm posting here is to relate one crew members take on the positives - all Europeans - on the cruise just prior to mine. I rarely if ever hear a Celebrity Crew member say anything disparaging about other passengers or crew policies. So, I was surprised to hear a server in Al Bacio (Celebrity's version of Starbucks) go off about how irresponsible and disrespectful of other passengers and crew that those passengers who had somehow contracted COVID were. The sentiment was that clearly those passengers didn't take adequate precautions to avoid getting sick.

That may or may not be true. I also think this crew member was aware of other specifics, she did not disclose to me .... antimaskers?), about how these 7 got infected such specifics casting doubts about how safety conscious they had been before boarding. The point is that this crew member - sample size of one but they talk among each other so I'm assuming this is a wide spread sentiment - are very aware of the risks of passengers who either unknowingly or knowingly take risks that increases their potential to get COVID.

Why is that? Well, this server was one of the 56 contacts. She was quarantined for 10 days and tested twice before getting released back to work. Crew hate quarantine. They did it on joining ship's staff for 2 weeks, hate it, and hate being sent back into it because of some passenger who she believes - maybe for good reason - behaved in risky ways and got infected. 

So, yes, crew are watching the behaviors of passengers and fellow crew members. They care deeply about their jobs and hate missing work and the potential of getting sent home if they become infected. It behooves us to respect those fears and do what we can to keep ourselves from being exposed and potentially infecting them and the consequences they will suffer because of that.

https://reopen.europa.eu/en  

[Sharla]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:17 AM, Neesa said:

Thanks so much, I did try this, I believe they were even blank for @Sharla but I so appreciate it.

No, not even luggage tags....sigh....

I had them redone- I'll send them to you

[LizzyBee23]

3 hours ago, JeffB said:

So, yes, crew are watching the behaviors of passengers and fellow crew members. They care deeply about their jobs and hate missing work and the potential of getting sent home if they become infected. It behooves us to respect those fears and do what we can to keep ourselves from being exposed and potentially infecting them and the consequences they will suffer because of that.

https://reopen.europa.eu/en  

The question that should follow this attitude is would the crew care about the way passengers behave if they weren't required to quarantine as a result of a close contact? 

The crew member you're talking about is committing the false choice logical fallacy. If they really hate quarantine, the anger should be directed at the protocol which requires quarantine of presumably healthy people (like her), not the fact that a passenger triggered it (and let's not even get started on our ability to predict which behavior may have resulted in the original passenger(s) catching the virus). The more likely thing is that you stumbled upon some latent nationalistic or other prejudicial attitude being expressed by someone who thought they'd have a friendly ear in you.

[Neesa]

2 hours ago, Sharla said:

I had them redone- I'll send them to you

I now have them, @Sharla thank you! 

[UNCFanatik]

28 minutes ago, Canadian-Cruiser said:

The crew are the ones who will bear the brunt of whatever happens with masks down the road as we can expect that in the event the masks on board become optional for the guests, the crew will have to continue donning them in all indoor venues regardless. As @MrMarc and @JeffB said, we ought to think about how they factor into all this. Sure as guests I'm sure all of us would LOVE to not be able to donne the masks once they become optional but crew have no such choice and it remains to be seen how willing they will be to be engaging with guests. Granted I'm sure we can agree that the cleaner's and cabin attendants have the most difficult jobs as opposed to some entertainment person or guest services and most will not want to be quarantined due to an inadvertent exposure.

As North Americans we tend to think more about our vacation experiences with the focus on us more than them and how inconvenient things are or why is this done this way or that way @LizzyBee23 especially if ones hails from the cruise capital of the world which tends to be a bit of a different mindset but at the end of the day its he crew who will essentially be the folks who will have to deal with whatever comes their way. These are low wage workers who only want to support their families and really don't want to have to be quarantined and lose wages by doing so. I know personally I will continue to be respectful of them as opposed to citing theatre when I'm in their presence and I'm sure the crew deeply appreciated the guests having their best interests in mind for something as simple as a covering. Think of the crew and be kind. 

Point taken

However, you still haven't addressed the question of the dining room attendants and crew that work in unvaccinated indoor areas of the ship where passengers are not masked currently and how that would differ moving forward. I wont get in trouble again but then there is the whole question of the efficacy of cloth masks and if they would truly protect the crew. One would think that masks will not be a requirement forever on cruise ships as the pandemic wanes. I will not mention theater in front of the crew but I do recognize that some protocols in place do not stop the spread of covid (EX: Crew filling your soda cup at Freestyle machine). However, I am choosing to sail during a pandemic and agree to the protocols. Just as crew have chosen to work on a cruise ship and assume the inherent risks of doing so

I think the best protection for the crew is to get vaccinated and as other people have mentioned, the crew skews younger where their risks from serious outcome should be minimized especially being vaccinated. 

There is no way to keep Covid cases from happening on cruise ships. All they can do is effective protocols that have proven to slow the spread. 

As cruise ship customers, we do have a choice to spend our money on sailings during the pandemic with the listed protocols. It is a reasonable expectation that Royal will provide protection for their crews as Royal does not want to lose revenue. Also, it is up to the personal responsibility of the crew to protect themselves as well by being vaccinated and not work a cruise ship if they have medical conditions that would make them more susceptible to Covid. My cruise dollars during this pandemic help support the crew as well as me choosing to sail during a pandemic. 

I sail in November and I will follow all safety protocols that Royal has set.  

[LizzyBee23]

Masking has already become a class issue (see the MOMA spectacle for a recent example here) and part of the reason I sincerely oppose mask mandates for anyone, crew included. @Canadian-Cruiser is committing the same type of logical fallacy. Because an injustice is being committed on the basis of flimsy (at best) science and is forcing the crew to mask at the behest of a corporation catering to the whims of scared passengers, then we should all do it too. The problem is with the requirement in the first place.

 

[WAAAYTOOO]

1 hour ago, LizzyBee23 said:

The problem is with the requirement in the first place.

Amen to that !

[TXcruzer]

Responding to the original topic of this thread:  The CSO has been extended 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

Responding to the original topic of this thread:  The CSO has been extended 

Discussion here: