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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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On 7/16/2019 at 11:30 AM, FManke said:

I don't know who is right and who is wrong.

If the windows couldn't open, it wouldn't have happened. If grandpa hadn't put the little girl on the railing, it wouldn't have happened. 

I think it's pretty obvious who is right and who is wrong.  If the grandfather set the baby on a railing on a balcony or an open area on one of the upper decks, same thing would have happened.  If the window had been closed and the baby fell into the window, it's likely the pane would've held the weight but not guaranteed.  A screen probably wouldn't have.  And the baby still could've been severely injured or killed. 

Their Today Show performance disgusted me.

I don't think this is anything more than trying to gin up public outrage against Royal Caribbean and pushing them to settle to shut them up.  It isn't about protecting other children, it isn't about restitution for Royal Caribbean's negligence, it's about taking advantage of self-inflicted tragedy to blame somebody else for their own stupidity and get a big check in the process.

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It seems that the lawyer is smartly taking the only path that could be a good result for the family: winning the publicity war and forcing Royal to settle to keep the family quiet. 

The lawyer likely knows that if he took this case to court a victory is not a sure thing. Proving the cruise line was negligent by having a window open is a long shot (as everyone here has been saying). The criminal investigation is still ongoing and at best what will come of that is the police call it an accident. Worst case they charge the grandfather with something. The police are unlikely to say anything that would hurt Royal. 

So while the story is still fresh have the family make the rounds and get their story out there hoping that public opinion will be enough to force a settlement. 

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Chances are Royal will settle with the family for a couple million with no admittance of fault. The sad thing is that it was an accident. Accidents happen. It's part of life. Not every accident is someone's fault (although I will say I think the grandfather is totally at fault in this situation).  However, we have to remember that none of us were there to see what happened and until all the facts are revealed to the public (which will probably be if it goes to trial), everything is speculation. I do think the lawyer is pushing the family to make a case out of this, maybe for his own greed (he'd take at least 33% of any settlement).

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6 hours ago, Orange Crush said:

I think it's pretty obvious who is right and who is wrong.  If the grandfather set the baby on a railing on a balcony or an open area on one of the upper decks, same thing would have happened.  If the window had been closed and the baby fell into the window, it's likely the pane would've held the weight but not guaranteed.  A screen probably wouldn't have.  And the baby still could've been severely injured or killed. 

Their Today Show performance disgusted me.

I don't think this is anything more than trying to gin up public outrage against Royal Caribbean and pushing them to settle to shut them up.  It isn't about protecting other children, it isn't about restitution for Royal Caribbean's negligence, it's about taking advantage of self-inflicted tragedy to blame somebody else for their own stupidity and get a big check in the process.

Agreed!  Well put.  Why do so many people in the world today believe they are entitled?  Such a sad state of humanity...

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3 minutes ago, MattCasey said:

Chances are Royal will settle with the family for a couple million with no admittance of fault. The sad thing is that it was an accident. Accidents happen. It's part of life. Not every accident is someone's fault (although I will say I think the grandfather is totally at fault in this situation).  However, we have to remember that none of us were there to see what happened and until all the facts are revealed to the public (which will probably be if it goes to trial), everything is speculation. I do think the lawyer is pushing the family to make a case out of this, maybe for his own greed (he'd take at least 33% of any settlement).

@MattCasey  Hi Matt, Welcome to the RCB forums!

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2 hours ago, MattCasey said:

Chances are Royal will settle with the family for a couple million with no admittance of fault. 

Hmmm....I honestly don't think Royal will...especially when the video is in play. Royal is doing what it should do...not comment until authority finish their investigation & reach a determination. The authorities are doing their do diligence, ensuring there wasn't anything more than an accident; as well as, fault/negligence. 

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I think deep down in his heart, grandpa knows whos fault it is, and it is something he will have to live with the rest of his life. The lawsuit is a way to deflect the blame away from him by his family. In todays nannie state that we live in, there is no personally accountability for anything. Everything bad that happens to someone is somebody else's fault.  

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I just saw 2 photos posted by someone, of the windows in H2O. I see what looks like blue glass, clear glass, blue glass, clear etc. But apparently the "clear glass" are wide open. I can't tell from the photos. Why hasn't Royal upgraded the standard from 2006 for windows that open only 2-3 inches? I'm not casting a first stone against this poor man for Royal's laxity. 

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IMHO Royal Caribbean is only a target because their net worth is near 10 billion and because the family will not accept responsibility for their own stupidity.


The bottom of the window is about 3 feet off the deck, about the same as any guard rail at the edge of any precipice. It would take an absolute fool to not recognize the window is open for anyone of a number of reasons including sight, sound and feel. The same thing could have happened from similar scenarios or construction in virtually unlimited places almost anywhere in the world. You can only protect the public through reasonable safety measures to a point before stupidity takes over.


In my opinion grandpa was holding her up the to window, she was squirmy and he lost his grip. Now he is just too butt hurt to admit his stupidity and the family is trying to blame cash cow RCCL in hopes of reducing grandpas guilt and striking it rich.

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35 minutes ago, MaureenNYC said:

I just saw 2 photos posted by someone, of the windows in H2O. I see what looks like blue glass, clear glass, blue glass, clear etc. But apparently the "clear glass" are wide open. I can't tell from the photos. Why hasn't Royal upgraded the standard from 2006 for windows that open only 2-3 inches? I'm not casting a first stone against this poor man for Royal's laxity. 

Royal's laxity? All the actual glass on Freedom is tinted blue. There is always noticeable noise and breeze/wind coming through the open windows if the ship is moving or not. The windows are not set up to have every other one open.

If you joined this site just to run down Royal Caribbean, you're not going to get a lot of support here. This is a fan site full of experienced RCCL cruisers that see how much of this story just doesn't add up to place blame on the cruise line. The grandfather made a horrible, unfortunate, fatal mistake, plain and simple.

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23 minutes ago, Ditchdoc said:


In my opinion grandpa was holding her up the to window, she was squirmy and he lost his grip. Now he is just too butt hurt to admit his stupidity and the family is trying to blame cash cow RCCL in hopes of reducing grandpas guilt and striking it rich.

I totally agree that Grandpa used poor judgement resulting in a tragic mistake. But I don't think the family is necessarily trying to "strike it rich" - because I remember how I felt when tragedy struck my family, albeit under different circumstances. One of the early symptoms of grief is anger, and certainly this family has a lot to be angry about (Mom is angry at Dad for letting Grandpa take the baby over to the window, Dad is angry at Grandpa for lifting the baby up to the window, Grandpa is angry at himself for being responsible for the tragedy, Grandma is angry at Grandpa for causing the death of the baby, etc.) and when people are angry, they flail around looking for someone to blame. When my daughter was killed, I was angry at EVERYONE with whom I could find anything to be angry about, and her father was so angry he drove people away (a phenomenon you may have observed in other bereaved parents), but that was just a normal grief reaction that gave way, eventually, to the deep grief that comes when the energy provided by anger is spent.

The only person I blame is the lawyer, who I think is the one trying to get rich by inventing this cockamamie story of it being a "kids area" and parading this family in front of the media. I don't hate lawyers, by any means. My dad was a lawyer, but he never chased an ambulance or a cruise ship or dragged his clients into the limelight. He honored the confidentiality of the lawyer/client relationship, that this lawyer apparently never heard of.

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1 hour ago, MaureenNYC said:

I just saw 2 photos posted by someone, of the windows in H2O. I see what looks like blue glass, clear glass, blue glass, clear etc. But apparently the "clear glass" are wide open. I can't tell from the photos. Why hasn't Royal upgraded the standard from 2006 for windows that open only 2-3 inches? I'm not casting a first stone against this poor man for Royal's laxity. 

You made the effort to join here to post that?  "Royal's laxity"??  

 

There is so much I want to say, but in deference to the situation, I'll just leave you with this:

Image result for rolls eyes gif

 

Mods, if this is out of line or crosses a border, please delete.

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3 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

I totally agree that Grandpa used poor judgement resulting in a tragic mistake. But I don't think the family is necessarily trying to "strike it rich" - because I remember how I felt when tragedy struck my family, albeit under different circumstances. One of the early symptoms of grief is anger, and certainly this family has a lot to be angry about (Mom is angry at Dad for letting Grandpa take the baby over to the window, Dad is angry at Grandpa for lifting the baby up to the window, Grandpa is angry at himself for being responsible for the tragedy, Grandma is angry at Grandpa for causing the death of the baby, etc.) and when people are angry, they flail around looking for someone to blame. When my daughter was killed, I was angry at EVERYONE with whom I could find anything to be angry about, and her father was so angry he drove people away (a phenomenon you may have observed in other bereaved parents), but that was just a normal grief reaction that gave way, eventually, to the deep grief that comes when the energy provided by anger is spent.

The only person I blame is the lawyer, who I think is the one trying to get rich by inventing this cockamamie story of it being a "kids area" and parading this family in front of the media. I don't hate lawyers, by any means. My dad was a lawyer, but he never chased an ambulance or a cruise ship or dragged his clients into the limelight. He honored the confidentiality of the lawyer/client relationship, that this lawyer apparently never heard of.

I concede to your experience and agree with your viewpoint about anger and grief over greed. I am sure there is a big hole in the life of the parents right now that is a storm of emotion from sadness to disbelief, anger and even confusion. They will grasp at most anything that will explain,  resolve and maybe through some miracle change what happened. In their anger they are striking out. It has to be extremely hard to put the blame on a close family member. RCCL is an obvious target. They should have done something, anything to prevent this. All this and more is probably going through their minds. No doubt attorneys are right there like buzzards looking for a meal and trying to turn emotion into cash.

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I just came off of Adventure (8 nights).  This was the topic on day1.  Seasoned cruisers all agreed come next yr the windows will no longer open at all.  Leave the tinting and opening of windows alone.  The fact is the HANDrailing...note I say HAND is probably 3-3 1/2 feet high and at least 2 feet from the window.  On top of that the windows slant out towards the ocean.  

I also looked around and you can see cameras everywhere on the pool deck.  We were laughing at the bar because there is a sign that says SMILE you are on camera.  So 10 of us, waived and smiled to the camera.

It is horrific it happened, but like my husband has said if that happened while he was holding our 2 yr old grandbaby he would have dove out the window after her in hopes to break her fall.

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10 minutes ago, Pima1988 said:

I just came off of Adventure (8 nights).  This was the topic on day1.  Seasoned cruisers all agreed come next yr the windows will no longer open at all.  Leave the tinting and opening of windows alone.  The fact is the HANDrailing...note I say HAND is probably 3-3 1/2 feet high and at least 2 feet from the window.  On top of that the windows slant out towards the ocean.  

I also looked around and you can see cameras everywhere on the pool deck.  We were laughing at the bar because there is a sign that says SMILE you are on camera.  So 10 of us, waived and smiled to the camera.

It is horrific it happened, but like my husband has said if that happened while he was holding our 2 yr old grandbaby he would have dove out the window after her in hopes to break her fall.

If they seal all the windows shut, that'll have an "interesting" effect on the smokers, and the ability of the smoke to drift away.

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1 hour ago, Ditchdoc said:

I concede to your experience and agree with your viewpoint about anger and grief over greed. I am sure there is a big hole in the life of the parents right now that is a storm of emotion from sadness to disbelief, anger and even confusion. They will grasp at most anything that will explain,  resolve and maybe through some miracle change what happened. In their anger they are striking out. It has to be extremely hard to put the blame on a close family member. RCCL is an obvious target. They should have done something, anything to prevent this. All this and more is probably going through their minds. No doubt attorneys are right there like buzzards looking for a meal and trying to turn emotion into cash.

Very well stated! Thanks for the validation. I think we're pretty much in agreement, here.

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Like most people said, this was a horrific accident that was the grandfathers fault.  I can’t imagine the horror this family went through.  Them suing RC is just them trying to shift the blame from the grandpa and get money from it.  There is no way the grandpa didn’t know that window was open.  Out of all the windows in the area he happened to place the kid on the only open one by accident?  I think he wanted her to get air and lost his grip.  It’s not like this railing is feet deep, there is no way he didn’t see it was open.

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I Honestly hope that the RCI don't pay out any money in Compensation to the Toddler's Family the Grandfather should now accept his Guilt about dropping his Granddaughter from an open window on the 11 deck and now let the matter rest for the family to be able to move on I Honestly don't see how RCI can now be held responsible after the Grandfather Changing His Mind After Thinking About This And Knowing And Realising He Could Be Charged For Her Death Himself if RCI do pay out this will no doubt come from their Insurance? And For Them To Admit That They Are At Fault In Some Way when by the Grandfathers own admission this was his fault by holding her from an open window? Also if RCI did pay out through their Insurance how would they recoup this money? He no doubt didn't wish his Granddaughter any harm when she Tragically Lost Her Life In The Fall From The 11 Deck? But how can he and the rest of her family live with themselves after the Grandfather Changed His Mind After Making A Statement? Be True To Your Loyal Customers Who Come Back To You Year After Year RCI Don't Allow Your Prices To Rise After Paying Out Insurance Money To A Family Who's Little Girl Tragically Lost Her Life After Her Grandfather Held Her From An Open Window On The 11 Deck Saying He Lost His Grip Of Her This Isn't Right In My Opinion He Should And Must Be Charged For Her Tragic Loss Of Life He Does Really Deserve To Be Charged Now Along With Other Family Members After Changing His Mind After Giving His Statement?

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13 hours ago, LindaN said:

Like most people said, this was a horrific accident that was the grandfathers fault.  I can’t imagine the horror this family went through.  Them suing RC is just them trying to shift the blame from the grandpa and get money from it.  There is no way the grandpa didn’t know that window was open.  Out of all the windows in the area he happened to place the kid on the only open one by accident?  I think he wanted her to get air and lost his grip.  It’s not like this railing is feet deep, there is no way he didn’t see it was open.

I agree with this. It's a horrible tragedy that none of them will get over.  If the window was at a kids eye level, then you can blame Royal. But the grandfather lifted her up and wasn't holding on. How was that Royal's fault?

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The police in Puerto Rico could charge him in a criminal case, but I doubt they will, seeing how he suffered the loss of his granddaughter in what was apparently an accident. And the parents could sue him in a civil case, but I don't think they would charge their own father/father-in-law unless they thought he did it deliberately. There's no one else to bring suit against the grandfather. RCCL will do what their lawyers advise them will be best for the cruise line, which could be to settle and pay to make the case go away. I trust RCCL.

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15 hours ago, coneyraven said:

If they seal all the windows shut, that'll have an "interesting" effect on the smokers, and the ability of the smoke to drift away.

If the windows are sealed, the ONLY solution is to ban smoking on the pool deck.

The smoke and smell is already bad enough that as an asthmatic I cannot walk through the smoking-permitted area most of the day.

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42 minutes ago, HeWhoWaits said:

If the windows are sealed, the ONLY solution is to ban smoking on the pool deck.

The smoke and smell is already bad enough that as an asthmatic I cannot walk through the smoking-permitted area most of the day.

My wife has to always remind me which side of the pool deck NOT to walk on.  You are right, it is bad enough as it is.

Shutting and locking all windows on a cruise ship isn't a solution.  Next should they prevent you from walking on outside decks?  Then maybe prevent balcony usage?  There are plenty of other ship railings where passengers can use bad judgement.  If the Cruise Lines had to fully protect against bad judgement they would go out of business.

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1 hour ago, tiny blonde said:

The police in Puerto Rico could charge him in a criminal case, but I doubt they will, seeing how he suffered the loss of his granddaughter in what was apparently an accident. And the parents could sue him in a civil case, but I don't think they would charge their own father/father-in-law unless they thought he did it deliberately. There's no one else to bring suit against the grandfather. RCCL will do what their lawyers advise them will be best for the cruise line, which could be to settle and pay to make the case go away. I trust RCCL.

There is no requirement to file a suit against someone.  It was a tragic accident and the grandfather is at fault.  The outcome is something they will all have to live with somehow.  What they should do is begin to move on without suing anyone.

I'm wondering if they played their cards too soon.  At this point the damage they've done by spreading falsehoods and outlandish claims is done.  There is no taking that back.  The only reason for Royal to settle would be the cost of on-going litigation and the fear of losing should it go to trial.  The lawyer moved very quickly and went public so fast, followed soon after with the national news interview.   In doing so he may have damaged the opportunity for a settlement.  What's next for him?  Trying for another interview on another news outlet? 

They've played most of their cards and no settlement so far.  Settling now has the appearance of an admission of guilt.  

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The powers-that-be at Royal are very smart, but I hope they don't knee-jerk this and 

just decide to make the windows non-openable just because of this one incident (esp

since it obviously (at least to 90% of people with an opinion) isn't negligent on their

part).  I love having the breeze come rushing through the windows, especially in 

areas such as the Solarium.

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1 hour ago, Floski said:

The powers-that-be at Royal are very smart, but I hope they don't knee-jerk this and 

just decide to make the windows non-openable just because of this one incident (esp

since it obviously (at least to 90% of people with an opinion) isn't negligent on their

part).  I love having the breeze come rushing through the windows, especially in 

areas such as the Solarium.

I don't know much about science but I'm thinking that closing all the windows on that deck will affect the aerodynamics of the ship.  There is an open area in the middle opening up to the open deck above.  If the windows down below are closed, wouldn't the incoming air from the balcony "bounce away" like a stone skipping over the water?  

 

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42 minutes ago, RatedPG said:

I don't know much about science but I'm thinking that closing all the windows on that deck will affect the aerodynamics of the ship.  There is an open area in the middle opening up to the open deck above.  If the windows down below are closed, wouldn't the incoming air from the balcony "bounce away" like a stone skipping over the water?  

 

Windows account for such a small percentage of the surface area on the side of the ship.   I doubt they make any measurable difference.

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It appears to me that the Grandfather in question is at least the 2nd husband of the maternal grandmother.  According to the obituary there are 2 sets of maternal grandparents, with the 2nd set having the last name of the mother, nee making that set the mothers father.  Personally I can only see that as making accepting blame on the part of the subject grandfather even harder to comprehend.

I don't know all the facts and probably never will, but I cannot see where RCCL has any blame based on when we do know.

Also glad that this forum has allowed and open and civil discussion, I think we all know who shut it down and deleted all posts.

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16 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

It appears to me that the Grandfather in question is at least the 2nd husband of the maternal grandmother.  According to the obituary there are 2 sets of maternal grandparents, with the 2nd set having the last name of the mother, nee making that set the mothers father.  Personally I can only see that as making accepting blame on the part of the subject grandfather even harder to comprehend.

I don't know all the facts and probably never will, but I cannot see where RCCL has any blame based on when we do know.

Also glad that this forum has allowed and open and civil discussion, I think we all know who shut it down and deleted all posts.

I'm still quite new, here, so I didn't know anyone had shut down the discussion and deleted all posts. I've appreciated having some friends to talk about it with here. 

So the grandfather is actually the STEP-grandfather - oh, the poor man. I'm a step-grandmother and I know that being a step-anything is yet one step farther from being totally accepted, we're on probation for a long time, until all the results are in . . . . and this is the worst result possible. Have marriages ended over incidents like this?

 

Edited by tiny blonde
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4 hours ago, twangster said:

Windows account for such a small percentage of the surface area on the side of the ship.   I doubt they make any measurable difference.

I'm sure you're right (being a bot and all...), but I'm liking PG's line of thought.

It is science, after all.

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