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DeSantis/Florida wins prelim injunction over CDC


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The preliminary injunction finds that in the present scheme regulating the cruise ship industry CDC has acted athwart the Administrative Procedure Act and exercised authority not granted to CDC by statute. CDC’s motion (Doc. 96) for a stay — a stay that would serve to extend the unwarranted, unprecedented, and injurious exercise of governmental power by one person, the Director of CDC — is DENIED.

 

I thought that it was great that he called out the Director of the CDC in his brief and that he stated the CDC had no authority granted to them by any statute to do anything they have been doing. 

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30 minutes ago, Justwanttocruise said:

What happens to other states and territories like Alaska Cruises and cruises out of Puerto Rico in the caribbean? Does the CSO also turn into a guideline for them?

In my opinion as I am no legal expert, no...as the lawsuit was Florida vs the CDC. Other states will need to do the as same Florida.

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3 hours ago, Justwanttocruise said:

What happens to other states and territories like Alaska Cruises and cruises out of Puerto Rico in the caribbean? Does the CSO also turn into a guideline for them?

My understanding is the injunction only applies to Florida ports. So Puerto Rico or Seattle departures unaffected and would still be subject to the CSO

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3 hours ago, Justwanttocruise said:

What happens to other states and territories like Alaska Cruises and cruises out of Puerto Rico in the caribbean? Does the CSO also turn into a guideline for them?

The injunction, as written, prevents the CSO from being enforced on cruises that go from, to, or visit a Florida port. This could affect sailings from Baltimore and Port Liberty that visit Port Canaveral (and sailings from other East Coast ports if any visit a Florida port), but otherwise leaves the CSO in place everywhere else. Then the case proceeds on its merits and the outcome could involve the CSO being invalidated completely, everywhere, but that will be later. On July 18, 2021, as things currently stand, it's that preliminary injunction which goes into effect while the case proceeds.

Other jurisdictions presumably could choose to file suit as well, or to seek whatever other remedies may be available while this case continues. It may also open a door for the CDC to relax things a bit elsewhere, ostensibly so the CDC could argue how nice they're being, et. al. Who knows where things go next. I think it's clear the judge expects the CDC to appeal the preliminary injunction, too. So at the moment, maybe we just have to wait until July 18.

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5 hours ago, DunwoodyDad said:

Twangster, I very much respect your knowledge of the cruise industry, but if you are trying to say that the Florida law over vaccine requirement is a greater hurdle than the CSO, then I think that is a really flawed take.
 

Although it’s clearly not in line with RCLs ideal situation, they were able to manage through this law with the Vax/No Vax zones and sail last weekend at 86% vaccination rate. Meanwhile, because of the CSO they have a ridiculous amount of expensive red tape like test cruises and port agreements, and a requirement for vaccinated passengers to wear masks inside (despite that being a complete break from the guidance the CDC has given indoors while on land if vaccinated). 
 

To be clear, I am not defending the Fla law, but to suggest it’s a bigger impediment to get sailing again vs the CSO is just silly if you look at the facts. 

I don't recall saying SB2006 is a bigger screw up than the CSO is/was.  If that is how my post read I apologize.

The cruise lines have navigated the CSO and SB2006 and they have been able to cruise.  That outcome doesn't justify either the CSO or SB2006.

Both the CSO and SB2006 are example of government overreach.  SB2006 greatly complicates the cruise lines having insight into guest booking trends and how they need to or can adapt protocols to reflect the makeup of cruise manifests next week, next month, 3 months and 6 months from now. 

Government laws and regulations are fixed and not agile or flexible.  They don't adapt as this situation changes.  Right now the situation is changing rapidly yet with one arm held behind their back by the CSO and one arm tied with a rope by SB2006 cruise lines are facing substantially more effort to make cruises work.    

It doesn't have to be this way.  Government could do what it does best, get out of the way.  That applies equally to the federal and state governments. 

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20 minutes ago, twangster said:

It doesn't have to be this way.  Government could do what it does best, get out of the way.  That applies equally to the federal and state governments. 

Cheers to this! 
Although I would rephrase slightly to say, “Government should do what it doesn’t do best, get out of the way.”

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Reading this right Alaska withdraws its motion to intervene. 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.100.0.pdf

 

This is after Merryday deferred temporarily the Alaska and Texas motions to intervene.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.99.0.pdf

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54 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Reading this right Alaska withdraws its motion to intervene. 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.100.0.pdf

 

This is after Merryday deferred temporarily the Alaska and Texas motions to intervene.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.99.0.pdf

Thank you for finding these.  I hope Texas will continue to try to be a part of the final solution.

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1 hour ago, CGTLH said:

Reading this right Alaska withdraws its motion to intervene. 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.100.0.pdf

 

This is after Merryday deferred temporarily the Alaska and Texas motions to intervene.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.99.0.pdf

Looks like he is trying to resolve the central issue without adding any decisions that could be appealed and cause further delay or bring in more parties that could bring in issues not directly related to solving the main issue.  I might not agree with his ruling, but I admire his speed and attempt to keep the focus on the main problem.   He sounds like a very intelligent, practical, though irritable, Judge.

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2 hours ago, twangster said:

 

It doesn't have to be this way.  Government could do what it does best, get out of the way.  That applies equally to the federal and state governments. 

Totally agree with this and I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

Bottom line to me is that the CSO going away will be a giant boost for the cruise lines if the current ruling sticks.

And If they also could run their Florida based cruises the way they are doing on Adventure, I am sure they would and yes the Florida law is holding them back from doing that. 
 

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I just realized something I think is really ironic.  A lot of us have been arguing as to whether these decisions were being made by scientists or politicians.  We have now moved on and resolved that question, the decisions are being made by politicians and judges,  I'm just not sure that is a good thing.

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25 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I just realized something I think is really ironic.  A lot of us have been arguing as to whether these decisions were being made by scientists or politicians.  We have now moved on and resolved that question, the decisions are being made by politicians and judges,  I'm just not sure that is a good thing.

In Royal's case the judge is allowing them to follow their Healthy Sail Panel - made up of scientists and experts in the fields.  Royal also knows guests want safe cruises. 

Royal is not going to throw away all protocols just because it might be able to soon.  No cruise line can afford a major outbreak.   

I realize the CDC is convinced that cruise lines are poised to drop all protocols and cruise likes its 2019 tomorrow but I don't see that happening.  Once again, the CDC is wrong. 

 

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9 minutes ago, twangster said:

In Royal's case the judge is allowing them to follow their Healthy Sail Panel - made up of scientists and experts in the fields.  Royal also knows guests want safe cruises. 

Royal is not going to throw away all protocols just because it might be able to soon.  No cruise line can afford a major outbreak.   

I realize the CDC is convinced that cruise lines are poised to drop all protocols and cruise likes its 2019 tomorrow but I don't see that happening.  Once again, the CDC is wrong. 

 

You are absolutely right. I don’t actually expect much to change on the 18th if the CSO goes away. The reps for the lines have already talked about the difficulty in trying to bring so many ships back on line in a short period. Crew needs to be trained, supply chains need to be ramped up, itineraries need to be planned and scheduled. It will make all those plans easier to make without the CSO hanging over them but don’t expect a switch to flick and all ships will be back sailing. Even without the CSO I would be shocked to see all ships back in service before first quarter of 2022

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34 minutes ago, twangster said:

In Royal's case the judge is allowing them to follow their Healthy Sail Panel - made up of scientists and experts in the fields.  Royal also knows guests want safe cruises. 

Royal is not going to throw away all protocols just because it might be able to soon.  No cruise line can afford a major outbreak.   

I realize the CDC is convinced that cruise lines are poised to drop all protocols and cruise likes its 2019 tomorrow but I don't see that happening.  Once again, the CDC is wrong. 

 

I realize you know much more about the cruise lines than I do.  And I mean that as a compliment, not in a snarky way.  I tend to agree with you, and that is what I would hope would happen.  However, with no monitoring or authority behind the rules, I think they will be less followed and less effective.   Without the lawsuit and judge getting involved,  the CDC was approaching the the recommendations of the HSP, admittedly slowly.  My fear is that competition will erode the rules too quickly.  I also fear the unintended consequences that this ruling may have, which might actually be the biggest pitfall involved.  But my views on the Law or what should happen are meaningless.  The Judge has ruled, now it is up to the Appellate Courts and possibly the Supreme Court.  

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29 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I realize you know much more about the cruise lines than I do.  And I mean that as a compliment, not in a snarky way.  I tend to agree with you, and that is what I would hope would happen.  However, with no monitoring or authority behind the rules, I think they will be less followed and less effective.   Without the lawsuit and judge getting involved,  the CDC was approaching the the recommendations of the HSP, admittedly slowly.  My fear is that competition will erode the rules too quickly.  I also fear the unintended consequences that this ruling may have, which might actually be the biggest pitfall involved.  But my views on the Law or what should happen are meaningless.  The Judge has ruled, now it is up to the Appellate Courts and possibly the Supreme Court.  

My view about the case and how it has progressed goes beyond cruising.  Cruise ships fell through a crack and the CDC got away with exceeding their powers.  Emboldened by that they ramped it up and it got worse.  Unchallenged after that they extended it and took it up a notch.  No one stopped them.  How giddy they must have been.

I've long said that if the CDC could have, they would have locked us all in our homes very early on.  

The progression of this case has impact beyond cruising because in next public health emergency we would have seen the CDC attempting those types of locks down in so many other aspects of our lives except now they have had their magic undue powers put back in the bottle. They would have looked at how they got away with killing this industry and adapted to take on another.  No airlines left after the next PHE.

It's a major wakeup call for everyone - there was no check or balance to what the CDC did with the cruise industry.  

Look to the future and where the CDC would have gone...

Without this ruling if the CDC didn't like the way a flu season was progressing they would lock down the cruise industry.  

Without this ruling if the CDC didn't like some other virus with negligible impact to society the CDC would lock down the cruise industry.  

Without this ruling we all might find ourselves locked in our home in 20 years time if the government is fearful something might happen.  "Could be a virus next year, better lock up America 'cuz the CDC says so."

That's not freedom and that's not American.  

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12 hours ago, twangster said:

It's a major wakeup call for everyone - there was no check or balance to what the CDC did with the cruise industry.  

Look to the future and where the CDC would have gone...

Without this ruling if the CDC didn't like the way a flu season was progressing they would lock down the cruise industry.  

Without this ruling if the CDC didn't like some other virus with negligible impact to society the CDC would lock down the cruise industry.  

Without this ruling we all might find ourselves locked in our home in 20 years time if the government is fearful something might happen.  "Could be a virus next year, better lock up America 'cuz the CDC says so."

That's not freedom and that's not American.  

I completely agree with you on this! The CDC had no one watching them nor governing them. They just went ahead and did what they wanted to do. 

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I am confused as to some opinions on here. Seems at least one of us believes the CDC has the right to make a law, all be it temporary, that closes an entire industry down for 15 months and by extension the judge does not have the authority to block said law.

Then others of us believe the State of Florida is over reaching by insuring that ALL Floridians are FREE to shop, go to the movies, attend sporting events and dine in our favorite restaurants.

Do I understand this correctly?

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26 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

I am confused as to some opinions on here. Seems at least one of us believes the CDC has the right to make a law, all be it temporary, that closes an entire industry down for 15 months and by extension the judge does not have the authority to block said law.

Then others of us believe the State of Florida is over reaching by insuring that ALL Floridians are FREE to shop, go to the movies, attend sporting events and dine in our favorite restaurants.

Do I understand this correctly?

According to the brief by Judge Merryday, the CDC exercised authority not granted to it by statue. Basically they did something that they should not have been able to do, but did it any way. You certainly did not see this same overreach of power with the airlines, hotels, resorts, theme parks. 

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