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59 minutes ago, Matt said:

I agree they can't stop the virus, but they can mitigate the spread and risks associated with it onboard their ships.

Cruise lines cannot just throw their hands up and let cases pile up onboard. Just like how car manufacturers didn't just say "cant stop car crashes, so we don't need to bother trying to make cars safer", cruise lines cannot stop doing what they need to ensure their business can continue to operate while assuring the public (and government regulators) ships can sail safely.

Oh I fully agree and never would I suggest cruise lines stop all mitigation methods but I would implore that they evaluate what is and isn’t effective vs this virus especially among the vaccinated passengers. 

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37 minutes ago, Danielle OG said:

For those saying that the only reason we hear about this is because it happened on a cruise, I disagree. I'm constantly reading about flights landing with positive covid cases, full ICU's and high case counts. None of which have to do with cruise lines at all. 

Really? Are you looking for those articles or are they massive banner headlines like every cruise related one ?

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24 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

Really? Are you looking for those articles or are they massive banner headlines like every cruise related one ?

I check Reddit news everyday. Here is an example of what the front page looks like. Obviously there are more articles if you scroll down. Each one can be clicked on to read the full article. I see a variety of Covid-related news there. As for covid cases on flights, I get that information from Canadian news. 

IMG_1660.jpg

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

I agree they can't stop the virus, but they can mitigate the spread and risks associated with it onboard their ships.

Cruise lines cannot just throw their hands up and let cases pile up onboard. Just like how car manufacturers didn't just say "cant stop car crashes, so we don't need to bother trying to make cars safer", cruise lines cannot stop doing what they need to ensure their business can continue to operate while assuring the public (and government regulators) ships can sail safely.

Not an appropriate metaphor...  No one is talking about parking every vehicle in the country over the risk associated with driving. And we as citizens of a democracy have a direct responsibility for shaping public policy... If politicians are framing the public health choices in a way that isn't palatable to most of us given our own assessment of the risk, it's our job to let them know that, irrespective of the obvious truth that RCL has to play by the rules.

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4 hours ago, LizzyBee23 said:

Not an appropriate metaphor...  No one is talking about parking every vehicle in the country over the risk associated with driving. And we as citizens of a democracy have a direct responsibility for shaping public policy... If politicians are framing the public health choices in a way that isn't palatable to most of us given our own assessment of the risk, it's our job to let them know that, irrespective of the obvious truth that RCL has to play by the rules.

But the problem here is we don't have control over the actions of other people which affect our own risk.  People are acting like this is an individual choice that does not affect anyone but themselves, and that simply is a false statement.  We are facing a conflict of rights situation, and in the past the solution was a fairly straightforward examination of what would be best for the public in general.  That is why it is "We, the people" not "I, the individual."    However, that is clearly not the type of analysis going on right now.  To be honest, I cannot figure out what, if any, type of rational, logical analysis of our current situation is being done.  Rationality, logic and reason have been replaced with fear, paranoia and emotions.  Social benefit has to move over for rugged individualism.  Both have their place, but it's pretty much impossible to satisfy both at the same time.  I am confident that we will work ourselves out of this mess and calm down at some point.  I just don't really know how or when.

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When we get in a car, we don’t have control over others? Should we all stop driving cause others speed and are reckless and kill others even though we have done everything in our control to stay safe when driving? 
 

by the same token, I don’t have control over drunk drivers when I drive. Should we ban alcohol? 
 

should we suspend school during flu season? 
 

We could go on and on about things in our society that pose a risk to us that are beyond our control. We don’t live in a zero risk society and we shouldn’t set policy on a single issue esp with a virus with an over 99% survival rate. 
 

Everyone who is 12 and older has access to the vaccine now. People can do their own risk mitigation and that comes to cruising as well.

I’m vaccinated and have cruises planned for Nov and Dec. I understand the risk of cruising during these times. I don’t agree with every step Royal has taken or policies they have but I think they have done a great job with their protocols when a case of Covid is identified. I just hope some passengers don’t become victims of false positives. I think Carnival has fallen behind Royal in regards to his cases have been handled. People tend to forget there are other contagious illnesses that people board cruise ships with now and in the past. Some more harmful to children than Covid. 
 

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14 hours ago, MrMarc said:

But the problem here is we don't have control over the actions of other people which affect our own risk.  People are acting like this is an individual choice that does not affect anyone but themselves, and that simply is a false statement.  We are facing a conflict of rights situation, and in the past the solution was a fairly straightforward examination of what would be best for the public in general.  That is why it is "We, the people" not "I, the individual."    However, that is clearly not the type of analysis going on right now.  To be honest, I cannot figure out what, if any, type of rational, logical analysis of our current situation is being done.  Rationality, logic and reason have been replaced with fear, paranoia and emotions.  Social benefit has to move over for rugged individualism.  Both have their place, but it's pretty much impossible to satisfy both at the same time.  I am confident that we will work ourselves out of this mess and calm down at some point.  I just don't really know how or when.

You have absolute control, if you arent comfortable out in the environment ... stay in your house.

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20 hours ago, LizzyBee23 said:

No one is talking about parking every vehicle in the country over the risk associated with driving.

That's not what I suggested. I said car manufacturers cant build vehicles that simply drive and "good luck" if they get into an accident. They added air bags, seat belts, crumple zones, and a host of other safety features.

Why? Because federal regulators (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) demanded it, and the public did too. They wanted safer cars that would protect people inside if there was an accident. People did not want to be in a "death trap" no more than being on a "floating petri dish".

By the same token, federal regulators (CDC) want cruise ships to be safer for anyone onboard. And there is a lot of demand from the public to have health protocols onboard.

We're well past the notion of shutting down the cruise industry, so now cruise ships are doing what's necessary to add health protocols onboard to protect their business.

This isn't about the shutdown last year, this is about what cruising is like going forward. And just like other industries, cruise lines have to adjust their protocols.

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Meanwhile back to cruising...

For my upcoming Mardi Gras sailing there are still families with children waiting for exemptions to come through with 5 days to go.  Unvaccinated have to apply for an exemption including families of vaccinated adults with unvaccinated children due to age. 

Carnival didn't do CDC simulation cruises so they absolutely must maintain 95% vax rates.  The problem is some vaccinated are cancelling this week which is messing with their ability to maintain 95%.  Families with children are not at all pleased.  In some cases 2 out 3 children have received exemptions forcing families to decide what to do.  In other cases two vaccinated grandparents are cancelling because one grandchild with their parents in another cabin doesn't get an exemption so this further messes with the ability to maintain 95%. 

Now we are seeing vaccinated immunocompromised cancelling based on CDC guidelines for a 3rd dose leading to fewer exemptions for children.

What a mess.  Thanks CDC.  

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21 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

At the risk of heading into a Matt thread lock ...

Why isn't it? 

Yay CDC.

Because there’s steps that we all can take to help slow the spread that a lot of people aren’t doing. Mask up and get vaccinated the two biggest. The “personal responsibility “ line we hear Governors tout makes no sense. To use Matt’s car analogy that’s like removing the law that seatbelts are required and just letting everyone use their own “personal responsibility “ to use seatbelts. 
So I believe we can all do things to help stop the spread and put a end to this. But I’m not all for “anything goes” and those who don’t like that can stay home. 

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19 minutes ago, spursfreak21 said:

Because there’s steps that we all can take to help slow the spread that a lot of people aren’t doing. Mask up and get vaccinated the two biggest. The “personal responsibility “ line we hear Governors tout makes no sense. To use Matt’s car analogy that’s like removing the law that seatbelts are required and just letting everyone use their own “personal responsibility “ to use seatbelts. 
So I believe we can all do things to help stop the spread and put a end to this. But I’m not all for “anything goes” and those who don’t like that can stay home. 

We agree to disagree on personal responsibility, to me if you have chosen to get vaccinated you are basically bulletproof ... go ahead about your business and dont worry about what others are or are not doing.

Matt - no more comments from me since we are heading off course.

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11 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

We agree to disagree on personal responsibility, to me if you have chosen to get vaccinated you are basically bulletproof ... go ahead about your business and dont worry about what others are or are not doing.

Matt - no more comments from me since we are heading off course.

I think we’re not too far off from being on same page here. I guess the only caveat for me is that I have small kids who can’t get vaccinated yet. Once the vaccine is approved for all then I’m more likely to be more comfortable ignoring what others are or aren’t doing.  Thanks for the dialogue - it’s still possible to have a good dialogue even if you don’t 100% agree!! 

back to cruise talk!

I’m hoping royals protocols continue to work and we don’t see widespread cases on royal ships. My wife and I are booked to sail on Independence at the end of September and each time these headlines come out our families (who are going to be sitting our kids if we go) give us a hard time.  Fingers crossed!!
 

 

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38 minutes ago, spursfreak21 said:

Because there’s steps that we all can take to help slow the spread that a lot of people aren’t doing. Mask up and get vaccinated the two biggest. The “personal responsibility “ line we hear Governors tout makes no sense. To use Matt’s car analogy that’s like removing the law that seatbelts are required and just letting everyone use their own “personal responsibility “ to use seatbelts. 
So I believe we can all do things to help stop the spread and put a end to this. But I’m not all for “anything goes” and those who don’t like that can stay home. 

It IS about personal responsibility though. I am confused when you say that people should get vaccinated and mask up and then you say when governors tout "personal responsibility" it makes no sense. You are advocating for personal responsibility by saying people should mask up and then its not OK when governors say it? 

And yet, there are people everyday that dont use seatbelts regardless of the law. 

The cruise lines making people wear masks is pure theater unless they moved to enforcing passengers to wear N95 masks. Especially requiring vaccinated guests wear masks. Guess what? people are still getting Covid on cruise ships even wearing masks. 

I hope, once the delta variant wanes, the Cruise Lines will drop the masking requirement. I would hate to see masking become a permanent thing on cruises. I am all for EFFECTIVE and SANE mitigation methods for ALL kind of illnesses on cruise ships (guess what?? Covid isnt the only contagious illness you can catch on a cruise ship!) but I am not for security/medical theater just to please the panic/fear stricken, unscientific CDC. 

 

 

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I can tout personal responsibility all I want but no one has to listen to me. I don’t have any authority. 
If you get caught not wearing a seatbelt you get a ticket. The government doesn’t say “we’ll that’s your right”. 
Bottom line: the more people who get vaccinated the sooner we can say good riddance to masks. 

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19 minutes ago, spursfreak21 said:

I can tout personal responsibility all I want but no one has to listen to me. I don’t have any authority. 
If you get caught not wearing a seatbelt you get a ticket. The government doesn’t say “we’ll that’s your right”. 
Bottom line: the more people who get vaccinated the sooner we can say good riddance to masks. 

If I am personally responsible and have been vaccinated, why should I have to wear a mask? Why are masks required on fully vaccinated cruise ships now? All people are vaccinated on a ship but we cant say good riddance to masks? 

All because of an inept CDC

 

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33 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

Why are masks required on fully vaccinated cruise ships now? All people are vaccinated on a ship but we cant say good riddance to masks? 

As you know, Royal ships aren't fully vaccinated, and neither is Carnival.

As for why, it's a combination of the delta variant concern generated by a lot of media coverage about it, CDC policy changes, and I really think cruise lines are not necessarily fighting the protocol. After all, Royal was requiring masks on ships for vaccinated on all ships except for Adventure (until just recently).

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11 minutes ago, Matt said:

As you know, Royal ships aren't fully vaccinated, and neither is Carnival.

As for why, it's a combination of the delta variant concern generated by a lot of media coverage about it, CDC policy changes, and I really think cruise lines are not necessarily fighting the protocol. After all, Royal was requiring masks on ships for vaccinated on all ships except for Adventure (until just recently).

Yes, I understand the overblown fear climate we are in now. As stated, I am just hoping the cruise lines will drop mask use for vaccinated after the Delta variant wanes and definitely after the end of the current CSO on October 31st. 

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13 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

NCL at 100% vax currently has no mask mandate, at least according to their website.

That's what Carnival said so I booked it.   Then a week after their first cruises they implemented a mask mandate.   

I'm fairly certain the same will happen if I book NCL.  

Don't book based on protocols, they change daily in some cases.

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2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

I am just hoping the cruise lines will drop mask use for vaccinated

I’m going the other way on this one.  The Asian in me has gotten used to wearing masks for every epidemic that has showed up in recent years—swine flu, avian flu, H1N1, SARS, etc. I’ll probably be wearing a mask for a while whenever in a public setting.  I’d respect those who don’t like to wear masks and I hope my choice to wear one is also respected.

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