Discovery of the Seas

[instaGator]

22 hours ago, Jjohnb said:

Just out of curiosity, on the Vision, decks 7 and 8 in the centrum have cabins on both sides, it's looks like they originally had windows and were open.  Does anyone know when the cabins were added?  Were they added to all the Vision class ships?  Does anyone have a picture of the centrum before the cabins were added?  It must have been spectacular.

These old photos are not great, but you can see that the spaces that you are referring to were used for the card room, C&A loyalty, shore excursions office, etc.

[Jjohnb]

2 hours ago, instaGator said:

These old photos are not great, but you can see that the spaces that you are referring to were used for the card room, C&A loyalty, shore excursions office, etc.

 

 

Thanks, that's what it looked like when I sailed Vision last.  It's a shame, it really closed in the Centrum, that was a lot of windows/light to lose.  

[Jill]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:13 PM, Doug_Texas said:

With a name like "Discovery" I hope it's not an Antartica expedition ship. 

I’d love some expedition type ships! 

[Doug_Texas]

I understand that Royal is all in on the 10,000 passenger destination amusement park family ships and there is no doubt they dominate that market.  We are sailing Icon and I respect Royal’s dominance in this market.  The demand and profitability is through the roof so good for Royal.  As we have aged and entered the retired empty nesters group we constantly look for longer and more interesting destination cruises.  With Royal that means Vision and Radiance class ships and B2B sailings.  That means old ships and a lot of polished brass with limited ship features.

As the population ages huge numbers of Diamond + and Pinnacle people will be aging into this demographic.  The most flippant response seems to be “just cruise Celebrity or Siversea”.  There is no loyalty benefit to crossing to those brands.  Even though I have status on RCL and and cruise Royal 80% of the time I don’t find Celebrity compelling and are not interested in the Silversea / Regent price points.  I think eventually Royal will have to expand into the other adult segments or lose lifelong customer to other cruise lines.

[Xaa]

Diamond and Higher match to Celebrity Elite through loyalty sharing.

They'll make their decision, but it appears that they will happily drop the 2k Vision only cruisers and replace them with 7k Icon cruisers and 6k Oasis cruisers.  In spite of your feelings, Celebrity will recapture some amount if not a high amount of the smaller ship only crowd.

[Plumlee2028]

29 minutes ago, Doug_Texas said:

I understand that Royal is all in on the 10,000 passenger destination amusement park family ships and there is no doubt they dominate that market.  We are sailing Icon and I respect Royal’s dominance in this market.  The demand and profitability is through the roof so good for Royal.  As we have aged and entered the retired empty nesters group we constantly look for longer and more interesting destination cruises.  With Royal that means Vision and Radiance class ships and B2B sailings.  That means old ships and a lot of polished brass with limited ship features.

As the population ages huge numbers of Diamond + and Pinnacle people will be aging into this demographic.  The most flippant response seems to be “just cruise Celebrity or Siversea”.  There is no loyalty benefit to crossing to those brands.  Even though I have status on RCL and and cruise Royal 80% of the time I don’t find Celebrity compelling and are not interested in the Silversea / Regent price points.  I think eventually Royal will have to expand into the other adult segments or lose lifelong customer to other cruise lines.

I don't think it is intended to be flippant when saying "try Celebrity."  It is really a view on how the holdings company views the market.  They have targeted "multi-generational family travel" for the RCI brand.  Their hope is you join them with your large family some day.  Celebrity does match Royal on loyalty, depending on what level you are at.  May not be what you want from the benefits, but worth checking out the benefits in case. 

The company has limited resources with which to buy ships.  Its not just the money, its the space in the yard.  There are three major groups building large ships for Western Cruise lines today: Fincantieri, Meyer, and Chantiers de L'Antique.  Combined, they are building 11 cruise ships over 35,000 tons this year, 10 in 2024, and 11 in 2025.  (There are more yards that build smaller ships/expedition ships). One group, Meyer, is making it clear in recent moves they intend to diversify, which may further limit capacity.  MSC is not slowing down building, Carnival Corp is.  Norwegian Holdings has significant orders.  All of this means that when Royal negotiates for slots in the yards and contracts for ships, they are using scarce resources and have to pick the use that they think will make them the most money.  So while they may like  to build smaller ships for Royal, that contract, yard position, and cash may be better used on one of their brand's niches.  I do think this project discovery happens, it just will resemble voyager class or so in size and probably won't be a large class.  25 years ago, nobody thought a voyager class could homeport from anywhere but Florida. Who knows where we are in another 25 years, when these ships are getting ready for a set of Amplifications. 

[JasonOasis]

3 hours ago, Doug_Texas said:

I understand that Royal is all in on the 10,000 passenger destination amusement park family ships and there is no doubt they dominate that market.  We are sailing Icon and I respect Royal’s dominance in this market.  The demand and profitability is through the roof so good for Royal.  As we have aged and entered the retired empty nesters group we constantly look for longer and more interesting destination cruises.  With Royal that means Vision and Radiance class ships and B2B sailings.  That means old ships and a lot of polished brass with limited ship features.

As the population ages huge numbers of Diamond + and Pinnacle people will be aging into this demographic.  The most flippant response seems to be “just cruise Celebrity or Siversea”.  There is no loyalty benefit to crossing to those brands.  Even though I have status on RCL and and cruise Royal 80% of the time I don’t find Celebrity compelling and are not interested in the Silversea / Regent price points.  I think eventually Royal will have to expand into the other adult segments or lose lifelong customer to other cruise lines.

I don't think Project Discovery is going to be another mega class ship like Icon and Oasis, but at the same time is isn't going to be the size of a Vision Class vessel either.  I think as others have pointed out it will probably fall somewhere in size between Radiance and Voyager Class but probably closer in size to Voyager Class than Radiance.  With a ship that size there are still a lot of ports around the world Royal can visit.  And I'd imagine depending on how successful/profitable Royal's upcoming around the world is they could even do another around the world cruise on their new Discovery Class ship at some point. 

When I read your post and saw "there is no loyalty benefits to crossing brands" my mind immediately went to airlines and their loyalty programs, where I can fly Lufthansa but have the miles added into my United Airlines MileagePlus account, that isn't going to happen in the cruise industry.  You can't cruise with Celebrity and have those points added to your Royal Caribbean account.  However just because Royal doesn't allow that does not mean there is no value in crossing brands or no loyalty. What Royal does allow is this Celebrity will match your Royal status on the cruise meaning you will get the benefits on Celebrity of the status that you've earned on Royal.  As far as the points go the points will go into your Celebrity account which they will open for you automatically.  

If your goal is to reach Pinnacle status with Royal I would suggest stay with Royal because as we all know the difference between Diamond Plus and Pinnacle is huge.  However if you are Diamond or even Diamond Plus with Royal and don't care about reaching Pinnacle then by all means book a few cruises with Celebrity especially if they are visiting ports of call that you are interested in exploring.   

[Jill]

9 hours ago, JasonOasis said:

I don't think Project Discovery is going to be another mega class ship like Icon and Oasis, but at the same time is isn't going to be the size of a Vision Class vessel either.  I think as others have pointed out it will probably fall somewhere in size between Radiance and Voyager Class but probably closer in size to Voyager Class than Radiance.  With a ship that size there are still a lot of ports around the world Royal can visit.  And I'd imagine depending on how successful/profitable Royal's upcoming around the world is they could even do another around the world cruise on their new Discovery Class ship at some point. 

When I read your post and saw "there is no loyalty benefits to crossing brands" my mind immediately went to airlines and their loyalty programs, where I can fly Lufthansa but have the miles added into my United Airlines MileagePlus account, that isn't going to happen in the cruise industry.  You can't cruise with Celebrity and have those points added to your Royal Caribbean account.  However just because Royal doesn't allow that does not mean there is no value in crossing brands or no loyalty. What Royal does allow is this Celebrity will match your Royal status on the cruise meaning you will get the benefits on Celebrity of the status that you've earned on Royal.  As far as the points go the points will go into your Celebrity account which they will open for you automatically.  

If your goal is to reach Pinnacle status with Royal I would suggest stay with Royal because as we all know the difference between Diamond Plus and Pinnacle is huge.  However if you are Diamond or even Diamond Plus with Royal and don't care about reaching Pinnacle then by all means book a few cruises with Celebrity especially if they are visiting ports of call that you are interested in exploring.   

But it’s not a true match. I get 5 drinks a day. Anytime, Anywhere. Celebrity limits you to happy hour. That’s not equal. I don’t want to drink 5 drinks in 2-3 hours 

[Xaa]

5 hours ago, Jill said:

But it’s not a true match. I get 5 drinks a day. Anytime, Anywhere. Celebrity limits you to happy hour. That’s not equal. I don’t want to drink 5 drinks in 2-3 hours 

It's not equal, but it's also not nothing as we suggested in the comment "There is no loyalty benefit to crossing to those brands.".  They slot you into their status.  Might not be what you want and I totally understand but it is undeniably something.

If they don't build the smaller ships some folks want, people may be forced to make a choice between 5 drinks anytime and the desired ship size/experience.

[JasonOasis]

20 hours ago, Jill said:

But it’s not a true match. I get 5 drinks a day. Anytime, Anywhere. Celebrity limits you to happy hour. That’s not equal. I don’t want to drink 5 drinks in 2-3 hours 

Where did I say or imply that it was a "true match"? 

Status match does not mean true match you still have to read the conversion chart to see what your Royal Caribbean status gets you on Celebrity.  

[Doug_Texas]

I understand and appreciate all of the comments regarding the RCL strategy of "family only" and "multi-generational".  I love RCL, get great perks, and generally appreciate what you receive for your vacation dollar.  I've got 6 upcoming RCL voyages on the books, 1 NCL, and 1 Oceana (will not sail Celebrity).  After entering retirement my wife and I have sought out longer cruises and interesting ports.  We did a B2B on Quantum class this year that was 21 consecutive nights (and we liked Quantum class - particularly Two70.  Watching the Super Bowl in Two70 was really special).  We really like both the Freedom and Voyager class ships which used to dominate our 7 day sailings from our port here in Galveston.  I could be happy long term with  long cruises Freedom and Voyager.  

Oasis class now dominates the Galveston 7 day cruises and the 7+ nights are now on Jewel.  I don't really mind 2004 vintage Jewel (though we really miss the Royal Promenade) as we have had to sail Radiance / Vision class multiple times since Oasis has hit the market.  I get concerned about relying on 1997 vintage Rhapsody type ships.

I get excited with the rumor that "Discovery" will break the Oasis / Icon streak of megaships.  I'm on Wonder in October and Icon in January and am very excited about those sailings.  But this will be the exception for us rather than the rule.  Really hoping RCL can continue serving the mass market.  

[smokeybandit]

 

[ScottishRobbie]

I think this is the first time we’ve actually seen RCI talk about Project Discovery in writing.  I’m on Quantum of the Seas at the moment, and watching Entertainment Today this morning John our CD mentioned that the Senior Officers info sheet that used to be at Guest Services can now be found on the wayfinders that are near the elevators. So being curious, I went to read through it and found this under our Staff Captain.

[Chili]

3 hours ago, ScottishRobbie said:

I think this is the first time we’ve actually seen RCI talk about Project Discovery in writing.  I’m on Quantum of the Seas at the moment, and watching Entertainment Today this morning John our CD mentioned that the Senior Officers info sheet that used to be at Guest Services can now be found on the wayfinders that are near the elevators. So being curious, I went to read through it and found this under our Staff Captain.

Good detective work,is it ok to post it on the Facebook page?

[ScottishRobbie]

48 minutes ago, Chili said:

Good detective work,is it ok to post it on the Facebook page?

Yeah sure. What’s the link for the Discovery class FB page? I know theres one for Icon etc

[Chili]

28 minutes ago, ScottishRobbie said:

Yeah sure. What’s the link for the Discovery class FB page? I know theres one for Icon etc

https://www.facebook.com/groups/6815738268464288

[Jill]

https://www.schiffe-und-kreuzfahrten.de/news/royal-caribbean-arbeitet-am-project-discovery-neue-auftraege-fuer-die-meyer-werft-aus-papenburg/290350/?fbclid=IwAR2npaBBwHtZABZ529iS5OnwYZcHtxXTpcXGoqwIk7FvbsgI8Fg91lQ3l0Y_aem_AW-4BT96wP7yvPh-ZW1QbxYPyrLbkxjeW9fxZP0H6J73KQq8iYfJhXpH0Qmk1DckdYo#google_vignette
 

Translation: 

Around Royal Caribbean International, there are ongoing rumors about smaller new buildings under the project title Discovery. Royal Caribbean International has now indirectly confirmed that work is being done on new buildings. In the introduction text of staff captain Markus Alander, who has been working in the new building department of Royal Caribbean for several years, states that he is also working on Project Discovery. In recent years, he has accompanied the introduction of numerous new ships for the Royal Caribbean Group.

Project Discovery is supposed to be planning for medium-sized cruise ships. Since with the four ships from the Vision Class and the four ships from the Radiance Class, several Royal Caribbean cruise ships will soon exceed an age of 20, 25 or even 30 years, these cruise ships must be replaced. However, you cannot simply replace these cruise ships with ships of a significantly larger ship class such as the Oasis, Quantum or Icon Class, as these cruise ships are far from being able to sail all routes.

Royal Caribbean International has not yet placed any orders for Project Discovery. Since the ship class is currently in the planning phase, the delivery of the first ships from Project Discovery is not expected until the end of the 2020 years, provided that this ship class is ordered. Presumably, the ship class is medium-sized cruise ships for 3000 to 3500 cruise passengers. This would only mean that these ships would be about half the size of the Oasis or Icon Class ships from Royal Caribbean International.

Allegedly, Royal Caribbean International is also talking to Meyer Werft from Papenburg about Project Discovery. The shipyard from Emsland could well use orders for new cruise ships. Since the current order book for cruise ships from Papenburg only lasts until 2025, the shipyard could build a new ship class for Royal Caribbean International from 2026. In 2026, the oldest Royal Caribbean cruise ship Grandeur of the Seas reaches the age of 30 years, a year later the Rhapsody of the Seas and the Enchantment of the Seas also exceed this age limit. Royal Caribbean International will have to replace these cruise ships towards the end of the 2020s.

The fact that the Meyer Werft on Papenburg will be involved in Project Discovery is well possible but by no means guaranteed. In addition to the shipyard from Papenburg, the competition of Chantiers de l'Atlantique from France has also built several cruise ships for the Royal Caribbean Group in recent years.

[smokeybandit]

That article was amusing because the entire thing is based on that screenshot posted above.

[Crown&AnchorEsq]

The reporting on RCL speaking to Meyer Werft is new info I think? Though the source of that information is conspicuous in its absence.  I have no frame of reference as to whether Schiffe and Kruzharten news is a reliable source of information of German Cruise News.

The last RCL Meyer Werft delivery was Oddyssey I think? Pretty sure they handled all of the Quantum class deliveries if memory serves.

[twangster]

I think it's quite natural that Royal would talk with shipyards they have done business with in the past.  If nothing else they need to get an idea on pricing for such a build.  They are probably also talking with the shipyard that builds Oasis and Icon class.  Before they can approach the board to seek permission to proceed and lenders to finance the concept they need to know what a shipyard might charge and when they have time to fit it in.  

If one shipyard offers to do it for $900M but can't start for four years while the other shipyard wants $1B and can start in a few months they might decide to pay the higher amount to get it done sooner, or vice versa they might delay the project to save money.  They won't know until they talk to the shipyards.  

[Thumper44]

10 hours ago, Crown&AnchorEsq said:

The last RCL Meyer Werft delivery was Oddyssey I think? Pretty sure they handled all of the Quantum class deliveries if memory serves.

I can confirm.  I looked it up and you're right on target.

[Chili]

I found a good video on carbon emissions .

Discovery will have to be a new generation of ship that can run on multiple fuels,probably Diesel and synthetic ethanol.

 

 

[Doug_Texas]

The new Royal ships (Icon, Star, Utopia) run on LNG.  This trend makes Discovery class a must.   2026 a pretty short fuse though.

[Cakemeister]

I would guess that Discovery-class ships will run on LNG. There's plenty of time to finalize the plans, since they need to build Star, Utopia, and Icon 3 first. 

The article suggested that they could order the first ship this year. From ordering to delivery, the first Oasis-class ship took almost four years, and the first Icon-class ship took more than seven. Subtracting time for the global pandemic, if the first Discovery-class ship was ordered this year, then it might be 2028 before it was delivered. This fits well with the delivery of Icon 3.

 

[Robey]

At the Crown and Anchor Society gathering yesterday it was mentioned by our hotel Director that there is a management meeting on icon next week and there is speculation it will be announced about the discovery class.

[smokeybandit]

15 minutes ago, Robey said:

At the Crown and Anchor Society gathering yesterday it was mentioned by our hotel Director that there is a management meeting on icon next week and there is speculation it will be announced about the discovery class.

I would be very surprised if anything is announced about another class while the iron is still hot with Icon class.

[happy cruisers 2]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:41 PM, Jill said:

I’d love some expedition type ships! 

I agree with you, Jill.  Something without the bells and whistles of the mega-ships.

 

 

 

[smokeybandit]

11 minutes ago, happy cruisers 2 said:

I agree with you, Jill.  Something without the bells and whistles of the mega-ships.

 

 

 

Those exist in the RCG portfolio, just not the Royal Caribbean line.

[twangster]

Expedition cruising only works with small loads such as <250. 

Expedition cruising works best under 200 guests, at 229 last week it felt crowded and the volume of guests impacted the ability of the expedition team to deal with everyone compared to a prior expedition cruise with only 98 guests on board.

I don't see Royal Caribbean International ever doing expedition cruising.  Expedition cruising is so far from the mass market nature of RCI it would not be a good fit and would cost substantially more than the mass market cruiser would pay.  Silversea expedition cruises cost a lot of money, substantially more than the non-expedition "Classic" ships in the Silversea fleet.     

Celebrity expedition cruising in the Galapagos is pretty close to the same price as Silversea in the same region so there is no secret sauce to offering a budget expedition cruise.  You can't do expeditions with large numbers, it just doesn't work given the time it takes to load zodiacs and deal with large numbers of guests doing wet landings on shore in places where local regulations often don't allow for more  than 100 passengers on land at any given moment.  This is exactly the appeal to expedition cruising. 

Expedition cruising involves small guests populations and that just isn't the RCI way of how they generate profit.  

[Geezer Of The Seas]

On 5/29/2023 at 5:27 PM, Vancity Cruiser said:

Margaritaville at sea? 

That garbage scow that sails from WPB? Soon to be joined by an old relic they're acquiring from Carnival that will do 4-5 day itineraries in July '24 from Tampa? 

Pass.............

[Geezer Of The Seas]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:24 PM, smokeybandit said:

That article was amusing because the entire thing is based on that screenshot posted above.

This blog posted a loooooooooooooooong column over the weekend regarding a 'Discovery' ship class based on a 1 paragraph Facebook post by Michael Bayley.

Similar to hyperventilation article on Cruisehive breathlessly describing coming massive improvements to NCL's private island............based on a single paragraph on a Miami construction company's website that said way less than the article speculated.  

When the steel is cut and the sand and coquina are turned.........................until then, Internet/Social Media speculation and clickbait.

[Chili]

23 hours ago, Cakemeister said:

I would guess that Discovery-class ships will run on LNG. There's plenty of time to finalize the plans, since they need to build Star, Utopia, and Icon 3 first. 

The article suggested that they could order the first ship this year. From ordering to delivery, the first Oasis-class ship took almost four years, and the first Icon-class ship took more than seven. Subtracting time for the global pandemic, if the first Discovery-class ship was ordered this year, then it might be 2028 before it was delivered. This fits well with the delivery of Icon 3.

 

I don’t think it will have L.N.G. ,it’s just a temporary thing to get emissions down by 25% .

Synthetic ethanol is being pushed by the main marine engine manufacturers like wartsila  and MAN.  Plus they can convert existing ships.

And being a smaller ship you would think they could make it quicker ?

[Doug_Texas]

Vision, Radiance, and Voyager classes are very old.  New NCL Prima class are 142K GT which maps to Voyager class in weight but designed for about 20% fewer passengers.  Two new Prima class ships are coming (which could be a bit larger to accommodate methanol tanks) and as @Chili speculates for RCL, will be “green ethanol” powered.  Viking has two hydrogen fuel cell ships being delivered in 2026.

RCL will definitely build smaller ships because the quarter century old part of the fleet will retire, green is here, and you can’t run a mass market line solely on Quantum, Oasis, and Icon class builds.  I can’t see retrofitting an old Vision class but could see retrofitting an AMPED Voyager class.  There are some design constraints with retrofit.  Some smaller ship action will happen and it’s exciting.

[Nathan adams]

Not expedition but "discovery" cruising.

No zodiacs, still peirside with typical type excursions at places a larger ship can't get into. Less party and bells and whistles for calmer more relaxed cultural experiences.

[Doug_Texas]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:54 PM, Thumper44 said:

I can confirm.  I looked it up and you're right on target.

I was shocked at 2024 ship retirements and Carnival alone has Ecstasy (1991), Fantasy (1990), Fascination (1994), Imagination (1995), Inspiration (1996), Sensation (1993).

Obviously RCL Vision class must have a target for retirements.  Their refurbishments were long ago.

[Chili]

5 hours ago, Doug_Texas said:

I was shocked at 2024 ship retirements and Carnival alone has Ecstasy (1991), Fantasy (1990), Fascination (1994), Imagination (1995), Inspiration (1996), Sensation (1993).

Obviously RCL Vision class must have a target for retirements.  Their refurbishments were long ago.

Even Radiance and Voyager will be uneconomical with the new emission laws in 2030 . That’s only 6 years away.

[Vancity Cruiser]

It will be interesting to see if Royal goes with a more laid back 'relaxed' design with this class or if they go for a smaller scale 'theme park' ship.

[Southern Dan]

2 hours ago, Vancity Cruiser said:

It will be interesting to see if Royal goes with a more laid back 'relaxed' design with this class or if they go for a smaller scale 'theme park' ship.

If the rumors are true and the new Discovery Class ships are going to be a similar size to the Radiance Class then I think you will see a few things that don't take up a massive footprint (Rock Climbing Wall obviously, Mini Golf, Flowrider and perhaps a couple water slides) but you can't put too much on that size of ship.  I'm curious if they will try to do a promenade like Voyager Class and above or will they do the traditional Atrium Style like the older ships.  Also curious if they bring back the Viking Crown Lounge.  Either way I'm looking forward to seeing what's next...

[Jill]

Well one thing that’s a given, in my opinion, it’s got to be small enough to do Alaska inside passage. According to today’s 2023 Q4 call, Alaska is doing very well with bookings. So what’s the largest gross tonnage that can do inside passage? And it has to go through Panama Canal. 

[Zambia-Zaire]

1 hour ago, Southern Dan said:

If the rumors are true and the new Discovery Class ships are going to be a similar size to the Radiance Class 

Hmmm... if that indeed be the case, I would be royally disappointed. A tonnage around 110,000-120,000 I think would be very sufficient.