Cancelling the default tips

[Wheeler825]

Debating cancelling the default included tips.  Without knowing the breakdown, we can do some conservative math and decide we want to be crew on a ship.

Lets do math:

Harmony of the seas: 5479 passengers and 2300 crew.  (realistically I believe the passenger count to be much higher, as this assumes double occupancy of 2747 staterooms).

5479*$16*7= $617648 in tips, per week.  If we divide this evenly per crew member 617648/2300=$266.80 per crew member, per week.  Not great, not terrible.  Probably pretty fair considering the crew members' typical home and opportunities for jobs ashore. 

What I hate is that the tips are pooled then split mysteriously.  I'd rather tip my cabin attendee real well knowing it goes straight to his pocket, and my server at dinner the same.  The same way I tip a good bartender well(or any for a first drink)...

I dunno.  Just have a day off with too much time.  Anything wrong with my logic?  Who else gets part of the tip share that I don't actually interact with?  This is probably gonna be a controversial topic, but whatever.

 

[smokeybandit]

Gratuities aren't split mysteriously, per se. We know who they go to. It's just the breakdown that is a bit of a mystery.

[PL8SWPR]

It's such a small amount of money at $16 per day per person considering they are serving you for 3 meals, cleaning your room, and all the interactions in-between.  I don't get the obsession with the tip money.  We tipped $27 on a $100 dinner (3 of us) just the other day... just for dinner.

[Phd1003]

Up to you. We pay the gratuities and tip those who we have direct contact with. It's better than following the person who wipes the tables after we eat at the buffet or Resteraunt. What about those who clean the public restrooms, are we supposed to chase them down for a tip as well.

[Phd1003]

[Wheeler825]

16 minutes ago, PL8SWPR said:

It's such a small amount of money at $16 per day per person considering they are serving you for 3 meals, cleaning your room, and all the interactions in-between.  I don't get the obsession with the tip money.  We tipped $27 on a $100 dinner (3 of us) just the other day... just for dinner.

I think my biggest gripe is that they charge the same tip for my kid, $16 a day for someone we take care of.  Will he be in adventure ocean sometimes, yes.. but once again I'd MUCH MUCH rather tip those employees hansomely, directly.

[RCVoyager]

I think this is a personal preference deal for most of us. 

To me, $112 per person per week for across the board good or better than good service each employee I encounter, is reasonable. And even though we are not rolling in money, I don't think we've been on a cruise where we didn't hand out a few extra 20s to those who went over and above to make out trip better.

That said, I have traveled with a family member who ordered multiple dinners every night and whose wife made nightly special requests, whose son ordered off menu every night, and did not offer a single dollar extra that I saw.  For all I know, they may not have tipped at all.

If I can afford to pay for a cruise in the first place, I am a fortunate person.  I don't mind digging a little deeper into my pocket.  Makes me feel good about myself.  If I were wealthier, I would do more.

[PL8SWPR]

How old is your kid?  Argument isn't valid unless he's an infant.  But even then, your kid is still using towels that need to be picked up for cleaning, cleaned up after at least somewhat in the room, etc.

$48 for a full day of service is not a lot of money.

[DJsMrs]

I wish they'd just add it into the price and get rid of this debate period, and pay the crew a little more.  I appreciate people wanting to tip people directly - but what about the kitchen staff?   Laundry staff?  Support staff without whom your servers and room attendants could not do a good job?  It's impossible to tip them directly, hence the need for a tip pool.

[mistertomatohead]

Is it even considered tips or do they just bake it into the wage like I'm assuming a daily service charge? Your cabin steward who is very new but works much harder than the person that has seniority. What is their share? What do they do with cash? Report it for taxes? Are they forced to put it into the tip pool? I say if you want to go through the hassle just take it out and control your tipping and use cash. By the way, trying to figure out what the share is for each crew member is pointless. There are so many unknowns.  Not every ship is full and I can't imagine all crew members getting the tips. Are the officers included? How about entertainers and their support people? The doctor? I would just take the amount they want to take from you and just distribute at least that much by the end of the cruise. Someone will probably point out that it makes you seem like you're tipping a lot extra so you get better service since the vast majority will not take out the default gratuities.

On Celebrity which I'm assuming is the same, when I went to use OBC to tip my cabin steward extra there was a form and one additional group they showed was housekeeping. These are the folks who clean the ship. Maybe also the laundry people? Those that wash the towels and sheets. There are plenty more people who might be excluded. What about the tender captain/driver? The people helping at ports of calls? Excursion desk people? Anyone tip the captain lately? It'll be very hard to tip them individually. 

They've set up a system that makes it hard to do your own tipping fairly unless you're just tipping extra. Personally, I wouldn't rock the boat.

[Wheeler825]

22 minutes ago, DJsMrs said:

I wish they'd just add it into the price and get rid of this debate period, and pay the crew a little more.  I appreciate people wanting to tip people directly - but what about the kitchen staff?   Laundry staff?  Support staff without whom your servers and room attendants could not do a good job?  It's impossible to tip them directly, hence the need for a tip pool.

I agree, pay them a normal salary instead of split tips for people you never interact with.

[Xaa]

56 minutes ago, Wheeler825 said:

I think my biggest gripe is that they charge the same tip for my kid, $16 a day for someone we take care of.  Will he be in adventure ocean sometimes, yes.. but once again I'd MUCH MUCH rather tip those employees hansomely, directly.

Will your kid be eating?  Using Towels?  Going to the bathroom?  

We have 2 kids and also "take care of them ourselves", but any hotel room, restaurant table etc has required more care with them than without and arguably their share of work made is more than that of us parents.

Unless you're worried about being "beaten" out of and extra 112, just leave the tips on and then tip those who go above and beyond.  Perhaps those tips can be more homely than handsome to make up for your perceived loss.

Also, it's not an all or none thing.  If you really believe that you are getting no service value for your child, you can just have their portion removed.

For those arguing about what the cruise line should do or not do is irrelevant.  Under the current known situation, if you remove them you are punishing the people that can least afford to be punished.

[Wheeler825]

32 minutes ago, Xaa said:

Will your kid be eating?  Using Towels?  Going to the bathroom?  

We have 2 kids and also "take care of them ourselves", but any hotel room, restaurant table etc has required more care with them than without and arguably their share of work made is more than that of us parents.

Unless you're worried about being "beaten" out of and extra 112, just leave the tips on and then tip those who go above and beyond.  Perhaps those tips can be more homely than handsome to make up for your perceived loss.

Also, it's not an all or none thing.  If you really believe that you are getting no service value for your child, you can just have their portion removed.

For those arguing about what the cruise line should do or not do is irrelevant.  Under the current known situation, if you remove them you are punishing the people that can least afford to be punished.

Yeah he'll eat, but again we pay for UDP, which again adds tips.  Will he use the bathroom and towels, yes.. but we're paying for a stateroom too.. It seems they're nickel and diming you with tips, and the price of your cruise fair only goes to gas for the ship?

[monctonguy]

I don't know of any other industry that uses "tips" to help offset their employees pay like this or try to make the vacation seem cheaper by not adding them to the end.

 

Either way its a bit of a game and not really fair to the customer or the employee IMHO. Hotel rooms, All- inclusive etc don't add tips  automatically..and they clean, rooms, wash dishes etc....

 

A tip is suppose to be VOLUTANRY as appreciation or recognition for good service. Requiring everyone to pay the same no matter what the experience, before you even receive or never receive the service is not a fair practice at all.

 

And don't get me started on the pre-selected tip amounts now a lot of service industry is starting..with the minimum often starting between 15-20%....that's a defn turn off and a great way not to get a tip from me at all.

[Xaa]

The choice is yours @Wheeler825  I can see where you want to go with it.  Justifying it with your math in the OP and your child later on and now UDP is really just for your own conscience.   You do what you feel is right for you.  Those that don't serve you directly or aren't convenient for your handsome offerings will make do.

[Phd1003]

17 minutes ago, Xaa said:

The choice is yours.  I can see where you want to go with it.  Justifying it with your math in the OP and your child later on and now UDP is really just for your own conscience.   You do what you feel is right for you.  Those that don't serve you directly or aren't convenient for your handsome offerings will make do.

Well said...

[Censored]

50 minutes ago, Xaa said:

Will your kid be eating?  Using Towels?  Going to the bathroom?  

We have 2 kids and also "take care of them ourselves", but any hotel room, restaurant table etc has required more care with them than without and arguably their share of work made is more than that of us parents.

Unless you're worried about being "beaten" out of and extra 112, just leave the tips on and then tip those who go above and beyond.  Perhaps those tips can be more homely than handsome to make up for your perceived loss.

Also, it's not an all or none thing.  If you really believe that you are getting no service value for your child, you can just have their portion removed.

For those arguing about what the cruise line should do or not do is irrelevant.  Under the current known situation, if you remove them you are punishing the people that can least afford to be punished.

Ok, so crew members rely on tips to supplement low wages. To forego auto tipping is lowering the pool of funds. That amount is probably minuscule.  I chose to tip cash amounts to people who serve me directly.  The real punishment comes from the corporation who choses to pay those low wages to begin with.  I hope one day Royal makes the decision to pay them more and a "no tipping rule" implemented.  This is common on luxury all inclusive land resorts and luxury brand cruise ships. 

[PL8SWPR]

25 minutes ago, monctonguy said:

I don't know of any other industry that uses "tips" to help offset their employees pay like this or try to make the vacation seem cheaper by not adding them to the end.

 

Either way its a bit of a game and not really fair to the customer or the employee IMHO. Hotel rooms, All- inclusive etc don't add tips  automatically..and they clean, rooms, wash dishes etc....

 

A tip is suppose to be VOLUTANRY as appreciation or recognition for good service. Requiring everyone to pay the same no matter what the experience, before you even receive or never receive the service is not a fair practice at all.

 

And don't get me started on the pre-selected tip amounts now a lot of service industry is starting..with the minimum often starting between 15-20%....that's a defn turn off and a great way not to get a tip from me at all.

 

I see the $16 as an absolute bare minimum to ensure their service employees are tipped.  If my wife and I just went out to eat 3 times in a day, we'd easily exceed that.  My wife worked her way from waiting tables to the General Manager of a restaurant with multiple 7 figure revenue so we know the value of tipping.  The $16 is akin to leaving just something for not so great service and as we all know, the vast majority of service people on a cruise ship are well above that level.

[wordell1]

I would rather they include it with the fare or call it a service fee, which is what it really is.

Having said that, right or wrong, it's how the crew are compensated. Don't take it off. Instead, tip extra for those who go above and beyond.

[smokeybandit]

Unless you plan to tip the back of the house folks (laundry, etc) that you otherwise never would see, then removing tips is doing a disservice.

Just think of gratuities as service fees (c'mon RC, you need to make this change, too).

[monctonguy]

44 minutes ago, PL8SWPR said:

 

I see the $16 as an absolute bare minimum to ensure their service employees are tipped.  If my wife and I just went out to eat 3 times in a day, we'd easily exceed that.  My wife worked her way from waiting tables to the General Manager of a restaurant with multiple 7 figure revenue so we know the value of tipping.  The $16 is akin to leaving just something for not so great service and as we all know, the vast majority of service people on a cruise ship are well above that level.

There is NO minimum of a tip..it is supposed to be based on the service received. if you want to argue that they deserve $16 more from every person..then add it to the fare.

 

Its NOT fair the way they market and use "tips"....its NOT a tip to be honest. its a Fee.  Just because You like to leave money doesn't mean that I should have to or need to.  

it is always going to be an issue till them just include it in the fare.

 

Do you tip the gas fueler for the flight you took...do you tip the flight attendant for your meal? Did you tip the gate agent for getting you on the plane in time? Do you tip the pilot for the flight......No, you paid for the service/product and that's the end of it.

 

Its not an argument about tipping or not tipping for me...its the fact its a mandatory fee that they try to pass off as a tip in hopes that most people will buy into it or feel badly for some reason for the cruise crew. There is nothing else I have ever used or taken or stayed at or bought etc in my life that  is similar to the way cruise lines do it....

 

That is the issue

[monctonguy]

43 minutes ago, wordell1 said:

I would rather they include it with the fare or call it a service fee, which is what it really is.

Having said that, right or wrong, it's how the crew are compensated. 

That's the problem. For some reason, cruisers seem like its their patriotic duty to take care of the laundry people on the cruise.  Or whatever hidden department they come up with when tips are discussed.

Perhaps we should start blaming the cruise lines for NOT paying their staff properly..imagine that??!!

 

And you think that its all fair and given to the person who washed your sheets?..lol. Or the random person who wiped your table in the windjammer? You have no idea who gets it and if they deserve it.

 

Plus..bottom line.......a  fee is not the same as a tip...ever.

[monctonguy]

56 minutes ago, PL8SWPR said:

 

.  The $16 is akin to leaving just something for not so great service and as we all know, the vast majority of service people on a cruise ship are well above that level.

really....so you think that the $300 plus dollars we "leave" as a tip on week on a cruise is akin to leaving NOTHING??.....

($16USDx2x7 =$300CAD)

 

Plus we pay another $300 in drink tips or should I say fee.s

 

So $600 plus in "tips" that are mandatory and required before we leave an extra cent??!

 

 

[ChessE4]

1 hour ago, monctonguy said:

I don't know of any other industry that uses "tips" to help offset their employees pay like this or try to make the vacation seem cheaper by not adding them to the end.

 

 

In a lot of states the minimum wage for servers may be reduced by the employer due to expected tips.  My state is one.  Times are changing, but actual compensation laws are far behind...

[Mike.s]

2 hours ago, Wheeler825 said:

I agree, pay them a normal salary instead of split tips for people you never interact with.

Isn't this the same as the hospitality industry in the US, server is paid a very low wage and has to rely on tips to make up the difference?

I agree pay a reasonale salary and just tip to those who truly deserve it?

[Phd1003]

I think the cruise lines should issue specific colored key cards to those who opt out. Like a scarlet letter. See what kind of service they get then.

[monctonguy]

14 minutes ago, ChessE4 said:

In a lot of states the minimum wage for servers may be reduced by the employer due to expected tips.  My state is one.  Times are changing, but actual compensation laws are far behind...

I am from Canada, doesn't work that way here. $35k is minimum salary for any worker pretty much in Canada..and free healthcare and benefits in most cases.

 

So perhaps cruise line should start basing their ships out of Canada and pay their staff living wages..problem solved I guess.

[Wheeler825]

14 minutes ago, monctonguy said:

I am from Canada, doesn't work that way here. $35k is minimum salary for any worker pretty much in Canada..and free healthcare and benefits in most cases.

 

So perhaps cruise line should start basing their ships out of Canada and pay their staff living wages..problem solved I guess.

Aren't most flagged out of the bahamas and staffed mostly by people from low income caribbean nations?

[monctonguy]

18 minutes ago, Wheeler825 said:

Aren't most flagged out of the bahamas and staffed mostly by people from low income caribbean nations?

BINGO!...

 

And why do they do that? Answer that question, and you will get the reason why they try to mask extra fees as "mandatory tips" on their ships!

[Phd1003]

Even if they included it in the fare, people would complain how they don't have kids so they shouldn't have to pay wages for the kids club. Or that they don't drink so they shouldn't have to supplement the bar staffs wages. The long and short of it is people can do what they want (and they will) no matter what is said on this board, it won't change your position 

[PL8SWPR]

57 minutes ago, monctonguy said:

really....so you think that the $300 plus dollars we "leave" as a tip on week on a cruise is akin to leaving NOTHING??.....

($16USDx2x7 =$300CAD)

Plus we pay another $300 in drink tips or should I say fee.s

So $600 plus in "tips" that are mandatory and required before we leave an extra cent??!

 

 

Where did I say it was nothing?  I said it was akin to a bare minimum tip for nothing special service.  I've never stiffed a server even when the service was pretty below normal industry expectations. 

$16 per person per day as a tip is in my opinion a very low tip, well below what I'd be tipping going to 3 restaurants in a day some serving multiple courses.

I look at the "forced" gratuity being a huge bargain.  People spending several thousand on a vacation complaining about a $16 a day tip...

[monctonguy]

 

Well you said that it was akin to leaving something for not so great service.....

 

I thought leaving a bad  or low tip in the service industry was akin to leaving nothing. It is not seen as an insult?

 

Perhaps its a cultural thing between Americans and Canadians?

What if the cruise I paid for was $299(and i have paid less than that before)....then does a $600 tip minimum make sense? So the tip is 200% of the cruise fare and it could be the worst cruise and service ever....but yup, pay up??!...lmao

 

Its assinine to call it a tip at $16/day for good or bad or no service. for a short cruise or long cruise. Whether you use everything or nothing on the ship etc...

 

Again..its a fee, not a tip. 

 

Therein lies the problem......

 

 

 

[PL8SWPR]

16 minutes ago, monctonguy said:

 

Well you said that it was akin to leaving something for not so great service.....

 

I thought leaving a bad  or low tip in the service industry was akin to leaving nothing. It is not seen as an insult?

 

Perhaps its a cultural thing between Americans and Canadians?

What if the cruise I paid for was $299(and i have paid less than that before)....then does a $600 tip minimum make sense? So the tip is 200% of the cruise fare and it could be the worst cruise and service ever....but yup, pay up??!...lmao

 

Its assinine to call it a tip at $16/day for good or bad or no service. for a short cruise or long cruise. Whether you use everything or nothing on the ship etc...

 

Again..its a fee, not a tip. 

 

Therein lies the problem......

 

 

 

A bad tip is not akin to leaving nothing.  A bad tip can still be used to pay bills.

If they called it something different, you'd still be paying the same amount in the end.  No big deal.  Some people may appreciate that they can pay for some of the trip (tips) after the cruise as a means of spreading out the cost.  If added to the cruise fare, that money is due much sooner.  I don't pay anything earlier then I need to.

 

[Psycho and Barb]

We would never consider canceling our tips.  We do provide extra tips to crew members who have made our cruise memorable or crew members who don’t get the recognition that others do.   On one cruise we heard two of the pool deck attendants talking…One was wishing the other a happy birthday.  Psycho went and bought a birthday card and we put 20 bucks in it.   When the young man came back by, we handed him the card and wished him happy birthday.   The look on his face was priceless and we will never forget it…He did asks how we knew it was his birthday.  

[Xaa]

55 minutes ago, monctonguy said:

What if the cruise I paid for was $299(and i have paid less than that before)....then does a $600 tip minimum make sense? So the tip is 200% of the cruise fare and it could be the worst cruise and service ever....but yup, pay up??!...lmao

I think it may be cultural.   Canada (which I love!) is different when it comes to gratuity.  

In the US, if you get a discounted or even free meal, it's customary to tip in the pre-discounted value.

If you're getting a cruise for 299 CAN for 7 nights it's surely discounted.   Discounts you earned, but gratuity would customarily be paid on the full value.

The part about fee vs tip and if this tipping "should" be a part of the model aren't really important after you've booked, because you book with an understanding that this custom exists and is part of the model for the cruise you're choosing.

A high ground stance isn't saying "I don't believe in supporting that system so I will have them removed", the high ground would be "I don't believe in that system so I won't book."

[twangster]

3 hours ago, monctonguy said:

I don't know of any other industry that uses "tips" to help offset their employees pay like this

There is almost the entire service based restaurant industry of the US.  Take fast food restaurants out of the equation and the majority of every other restaurant where you are served at a table in America uses tips as part of the total compensation.  A few states are or have implemented a form of minimum wage for the service industry but many states have not or they excluded wait staff from it.   

[twangster]

4 hours ago, Wheeler825 said:

I agree, pay them a normal salary instead of split tips for people you never interact with.

None of us could afford cruising if they paid North American wages on cruise ships.  

Then again few of the folks that come from poorer nations come from a nation where anyone in that nation can make North American wages in their home country.  Doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. - none of them make North American equivalent wages in their home countries. 

So a cabin attendant working on a cruise ship should make more than a highly educated working professional back in their home country?

Many folks who work on cruise ships do so because it far greater pay then they can make back home.  

 

[DoomSlayer]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

None of us could afford cruising if they paid North American wages on cruise ships.  

 

Agree 100%.  And to prove this point, try pricing a trip on Pride of America and compare it to a normal RC cruise in the Caribbean.

[tjcruisers]

2 hours ago, Xaa said:

I think it may be cultural.   Canada (which I love!) is different when it comes to gratuity.  

In the US, if you get a discounted or even free meal, it's customary to tip in the pre-discounted value.

If you're getting a cruise for 299 CAN for 7 nights it's surely discounted.   Discounts you earned, but gratuity would customarily be paid on the full value.

 

1 hour ago, twangster said:

There is almost the entire service based restaurant industry of the US.  Take fast food restaurants out of the equation and the majority of every other restaurant where you are served at a table in America uses tips as part of the total compensation.  A few states are or have implemented a form of minimum wage for the service industry but many states have not or they excluded wait staff from it.   

In both cases up here it is the same. 

[BennyandBo]

Pointless conversation. If you want to remove the automatic gratuities you can and should. If you don't want to remove them don't. Everyone is going to do what they want anyway. Why discuss it endlessly. Royal offers the choice. You are not forced to be part of the system if you do not wish to.