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Do you think RC will force passengers to take the vaccine in order to cruise?


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Few points on this:

  1. Cruise lines already have some boilerplate language in their cruise passenger contracts that states passengers are responsible for having all vaccinations required by destination ports before boarding (e.g., you need a "yellow card" in your passport when traveling to Ghana, showing you got the required Yellow Fever vaccination; not the best example when there are no cruises to Ghana that I'm aware of, but it's a real example my daughter ran into). So even if the cruise lines themselves don't make any explicit statements about this, and even allow you to board without any proof at all, you could find yourself stuck on board when you get to the destination port of your dreams because they require proof of vaccination and you never got the vaccine or brought whatever proof was needed.
     
    Be sure to do all due diligence about your destination ports before boarding, and if you want to be able to cancel with full refund then do it before final payment date.
     
  2. Be reassured that while the news about people having anaphylaxis reactions to the shot are making big headlines, the actual percentage of people this is happening to is quite small compared to the number of shots already given. High single-digit / barely double-digit numbers of allergic reactions, vs. hundreds of thousands of injections so far. The concern is mostly coming from the fact that some of the people who've had bad reactions never reacted to a vaccine shot before now. Scientists are already scrambling to put together a study and isolate the cause, so we'll likely have an initial answer in a few months.
     
  3. I realize that cruising out of the US is a big focus here because we're principally a US- and Canada-based forum; but keep in mind that even if the US takes an extra year to get our spit together, cruising out of other countries (IMO) has a much better chance of getting back in shape by next summer simply because those other countries have been getting their spit together and working their butts off to keep cases decently low. Now that the vaccine is going out, I think there'll be a better shot of being able to take a cruise overseas next year than we'll ever see out of the US; but you can bet your bippy that the government of whatever country you sail out of in '21 (and quite possibly '22) will be demanding proof of vaccination before letting you in, no matter what country you hail from.

 

 

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I object to the use of the term "force".  "Require" is a much better term.  Since cruising is a voluntary activity, nobody's ever "forced" to do anything.

The news always takes the "doom and gloom" approach because it garners way more ratings than "things will be fine".   They always latch onto the worst case scenario discussions because it gets th

I am going to try a positive spin on this (with some less than positive "bits of data"): 1).  The Vaccines (and there will be many of them) are proving to be safe and extremely effective.  No amo

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12 minutes ago, Ray said:

This section does not say mock sailings can only be from US, what it does say is 

 

If you want to sail be it a mock or restricted sailing from any US port then you have to get approval from the ports the ships plan to sail from or visit prior to sailing.

 

 

Mock sailings from U.S. port needs to be made in order to get the Certificate from the C.D.C. The C.D.C. only has jurisdiction in the U.S.A. and not international. If you read the entire C.D.C. Framework, it will explain everything and you will understand. This Order applies to all cruise ships operating in U.S. waters as well as cruise ships operating outside of U.S. waters if the cruise ship operator intends for the ship to return to U.S. waters while the Order remains in effect. This Order does not apply to non-cruise ships such as cargo ships.

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4 minutes ago, princevaliantus said:

Mock sailings from U.S. port needs to be made in order to get the Certificate from the C.D.C. The C.D.C. only has jurisdiction in the U.S.A. and not international. If you read the entire C.D.C. Framework, it will explain everything and you will understand.

Kl however 

Having dealt in H&S for a number of years, being Nebosh Certified, having written Risk Assessments and safety procedures in line with various government regulations, carried out safety Audits and incident investigations i can honestly say the part you posted didnt say what you said it did.

But hey what do i know 🤔 

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It seems to me that the CSO may not apply to foreign vessels as they intended.  

On page 28 of the CSO in the section Applying for a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate part (4) states:

  • (4) A copy of the USCG Certificate of Inspection issued in accordance with 46 CFR § 2.01-5 that was in effect for the six months preceding the application.

The problem is that 46 CFR § 2.01-5 applies to United States vessels where as 46 CFR § 2.01-6 applies to foreign vessels.  

I'm not sure a foreign vessel can even get a COI as they tend to sail under the COC in accordance with international conventions.

It also seems the CDC really harps on and on about 18 U.S.C. § 1001.  It's like a junior lawyer went crazy fresh out of law school.  

Ironically the vessels that can get a COI under 46 CFR § 2.01-5 are part of the fleet of smaller American cruise companies doing mostly river cruisers yet many ships in their fleet have less than 250 combined passenger capacity so the CSO does not apply to them.  

So that begs the question if only United States vessels can apply under the CSO?

They may have out lawyered themselves with this one.  

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4 hours ago, monctonguy said:

They have stated the a vaccine wont stop you from getting it or spreading it....so untill everyone has it..its never going to go away.....its not a vaccine IMHO like they have produced in the past.

 

If you have a measles vaccine or polio etc, you arent scared of getting or or giving it to ppl..thats the point of a vaccine. Seems not to be the case with this..

 

It's a mess....and with the  US saying it iwlll be fall of 2021 before they can vaccinate all those want want to be(which leaves about 40% of th epopulation NOT vaccinated).....its a disaster.

 

 

I wonder what’s left regarding the big 3 cruise lines after the dust settles from COVID-19? I don’t see this mess going away in 2021. I hate to be negative but it’s very possible that cruising is done for good. It doesn’t help that the cruise industry is the # 1 COVID-19 scapegoat at all and the media is constantly dispersing the negativity. 

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8 minutes ago, twangster said:

It seems to me that the CSO may not apply to foreign vessels as they intended.  

On page 28 of the CSO in the section Applying for a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate part (4) states:

  • (4) A copy of the USCG Certificate of Inspection issued in accordance with 46 CFR § 2.01-5 that was in effect for the six months preceding the application.

The problem is that 46 CFR § 2.01-5 applies to United States vessels where as 46 CFR § 2.01-6 applies to foreign vessels.  

I'm not sure a foreign vessel can even get a COI as they tend to sail under the COC in accordance with international conventions.

It also seems the CDC really harps on and on about 18 U.S.C. § 1001.  It's like a junior lawyer went crazy fresh out of law school.  

Ironically the vessels that can get a COI under 46 CFR § 2.01-5 are part of the fleet of smaller American cruise companies doing mostly river cruisers yet many ships in their fleet have less than 250 combined passenger capacity so the CSO does not apply to them.  

So that begs the question if only United States vessels can apply under the CSO?

They may have out lawyered themselves with this one.  

Ummm... Lawyers, explain please?!?

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4 hours ago, twangster said:
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 Full stop until the pandemic is over.  

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If we have people coming from an area with higher prevalence traveling through areas to reach an area of low prevalence won't that contribute to spread and tend to increase prevalence in the local area where a cruise ship is home ported?  

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  Won't the CDC consider this effect knowing it is powerless to stop domestic travel?

 

These are relevant questions. let me take them from top to bottom:

Will the CDC demand that the pandemic is at an end before they greenlight a restart of cruising from US Ports?

I think there is a risk of this with the proviso that no US economic sector has been singled out for the kind of draconian measures that essentially shuts down a business like the cruise industry has been shut down. IMO, there is a distinct possibility that SARS-CoV-2 will not be eradicated such that an end to the pandemic can be declared. However, I believe that disease burden will be reduced to the extent that it parallels that of say, heart disease or cancer; we learn how to manage and live with these.  

Given that and juxtaposed with what I consider to be an outstanding Safe to Sail Plan that is ready for testing and implementation, I can see a court challenge to the CDC's continued shuttering of cruise ship operations from US ports. It's impossible to say what criteria might be used by the CDC to greenlight cruise ship operations but the continued shut down by government fiat is unprecedented and unjustified given operating standards in other sectors of the travel and leisure industries.

Will Inter and intrastate travel become unacceptable wrt potential for disease spread?

To me, this becomes a risk benefit calculation that with over a year of the presence of a highly infectious virus taking an immense human, social and economic toll, authorities are just now recognizing that lock-downs, even lock-down light, while they work in reducing community spread of the virus, are not sustainable. Therefore, as macabre as it sounds, hard nosed choices have to be made. Yes, some will become infected, become seriously ill and die. But most will not. Death is inevitable and some level of excess death due to viruses are going to become a realty that the human race, if it is to prosper socially and economically, has to live with and manage the human toll as best that our technology and medical knowledge allows.  

Won't the CDC consider this effect knowing it is powerless to stop domestic travel?

This is an important political question with significant implications. This question cannot be answered definitively without evaluating the world view that one has. Fundamentally, we know that the authority of government in the US to mandate behavior has been questioned. Can the wearing of a mask be mandated for the public good is just one example of many. Can the CDC implement regulations that prohibit domestic travel is another example? These kinds of mandates are coming under increasing scrutiny and governments are being challenged in the courts. For me, I think this is good. I believe governments have to show just cause and if they can't, like has already been seen in some court challenges to state wide mandates (Governors Whtimer in MI and Newsom in CA), mandates can be struck down. I think that continued CDC regulations that amount to unjustified restrictions to commerce are, in time, going to be found to be illegal and will be struck down.  Others can disagree.    

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10 hours ago, JeffB said:

These are relevant questions. let me take them from top to bottom:

Will the CDC demand that the pandemic is at an end before they greenlight a restart of cruising from US Ports?

I think there is a risk of this with the proviso that no US economic sector has been singled out for the kind of draconian measures that essentially shuts down a business like the cruise industry has been shut down.

 

I think this section is most relevant because no other US economic sector is subject to the CDC the way the cruise industry is. The rest of the economy is subject to a balancing act between the CDC's mission to control the spread of a disease and the other governing agencies need to have the economic sector prosper.

The cruise industry has no offsetting agency that is interested in getting them restarted .. thus no restart.

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On 12/21/2020 at 12:32 AM, Martha4god said:

I hope that getting the vaccine is not a forced requirement in order to cruise.  I’ve started to hear how the vaccine has caused a reaction in some and I don’t want to take it until i see that ppl are not getting any dangerous reactions from it.   I don’t want to be forced to take a vaccine.  I don’t mind being tested, wearing masks, social distancing and extreme “washee, washee” but not forced to put something into my body that I don’t know how it will affect me in order to cruise.   Everyone is different so what may not do anything to some, may cause danger to others.

 

dont fall victim to social media misinformation. I've taken the vaccine. Less than 10% of people will experience short lived side effects that are common to vaccines.(headache, injection site pain, fever). 12 hours or less. Zero people have died from the vaccine....COVID??

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On 12/21/2020 at 3:27 PM, JeffB said:

Some facts that pertain to recent posts: .......The individual on the United Airlines flight who allegedly had COVID-19, to my knowledge, has not been declared as having it. He is believed to have suffered cardiac arrest and because of unsubstantiated statements from passengers who witnessed his demise he is being presumed to have had COVID by United Airlines. The airlines and the CDC are working together to contact trace passengers who potentially came in contact with the deceased pending the release of information regarding his COVID status.   

  1. Within the last few hours the coroner's office responsible for determining the cause of death previously assigned as Cardiac Arrest by the ER attending where he was declared deceased did, in fact, die from respiratory failure with a secondary cause of COVID-19.
  2. While many will conclude from this single incident that airline travel is unsafe and the news media will breath oxygen on this story, the millions of passengers that have travelled safely on aircraft and the hard work the airlines have put into reducing the risk of COVID spread will not be recognized.
  3. What this does do is shed light on the importance of individuals taking responsibility for themselves in the current COVID circumstance. It is layering of mitigation measures, including taking person responsibility for recognizing illness and not going out when such illness suggesting COVID is recognized, that will reduce spread of the virus and keep us all safe. 
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On 12/21/2020 at 12:34 PM, monctonguy said:

They have stated the a vaccine wont stop you from getting it or spreading it....so untill everyone has it..its never going to go away.....its not a vaccine IMHO like they have produced in the past.

 

If you have a measles vaccine or polio etc, you arent scared of getting or or giving it to ppl..thats the point of a vaccine. Seems not to be the case with this..

 

It's a mess....and with the  US saying it iwlll be fall of 2021 before they can vaccinate all those want want to be(which leaves about 40% of th epopulation NOT vaccinated).....its a disaster.

 

 

thats totally incorrect. the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing COVID infection. As far as vaccines go that is historically very high efficacy 

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16 minutes ago, loki007 said:

thats totally incorrect. the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing COVID infection. As far as vaccines go that is historically very high efficacy 

I took issue with that post too, but chose not to respond at the time.

At this point it is unknown whether the vaccine prevents transmission. I assume this is because there has not been enough time pass since its trials to make an accurate determination. The ongoing phase IV trial will presumably give us an answer to this.

What we know that it does achieve, is provide a 95% likelihood of an infection not progressing to the covid19 disease.

Apologies for my layman's description, JeffB and others feel free to tighten up some of my terminology and descriptions where appropriate.

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Not in Canada..they had told us numerous times from our Chief Medical officer that the vaccines does NOT mean that you can't get it or spread it....that's why masks and social distancing will remain the norm for at least a year and they will not relax restrictions any time soon. This is all over every news channel, government website, Health sites, news sites etc.....

 

Do YOU know more than all the doctors and scientists and the government in Canada?

 

Even if vaccinated...you are still locked down and made to wear a mask and stay home here in Canada...perhaps different countries are telling their people different things.

 

I am not a scientist..I am just like the rest of the sheep, taking commands and obeying our fearless leaders who know all. Even vaccinated people can carry and spread it..that's been pretty common news/doctor speak here in Canada now ever since the vaccines have been made available.

 

 

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13 hours ago, KWofPerth said:

I took issue with that post too, but chose not to respond at the time.

At this point it is unknown whether the vaccine prevents transmission. 

LOL...what??!...IF the vaccines prevents you from getting Covid, then you cant spread what you don't have!!!!!....

 

On the other hand, if you get Covid..then the vaccine didn't work AND of course you can transmit it....

 

Please tell me all about the other vaccines we have that have eradicated certain diseases......but you could still get the disease and spread it if you had the vaccine......

 

 

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1 hour ago, monctonguy said:

LOL...what??!...IF the vaccines prevents you from getting Covid, then you cant spread what you don't have!!!!!....

 

On the other hand, if you get Covid..then the vaccine didn't work AND of course you can transmit it....

 

Please tell me all about the other vaccines we have that have eradicated certain diseases......but you could still get the disease and spread it if you had the vaccine......

 

 

I think the media headlines have led the public in general to believe the vaccine is some sort of 'cure-all bubble shield'. The number of hospitalizations and deaths will certainly plummet considerably overall...the population will be far 'less sick'. Discontinuation...nope.

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7 hours ago, monctonguy said:

Please tell me all about the other vaccines we have that have eradicated certain diseases......but you could still get the disease and spread it if you had the vaccine......

 

 

The last naturally occurring case of smallpox was reported in 1977. In 1980, the World Health Organization declared that smallpox had been eradicated. Currently, there is no evidence of naturally occurring smallpox transmission anywhere in the world.
Parent disease: Infectious disease
Causes: Variola virus
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11 hours ago, monctonguy said:

LOL...what??!...IF the vaccines prevents you from getting Covid, then you cant spread what you don't have!!!!!....

 

On the other hand, if you get Covid..then the vaccine didn't work AND of course you can transmit it....

 

Please tell me all about the other vaccines we have that have eradicated certain diseases......but you could still get the disease and spread it if you had the vaccine......

 

 

Covid19 is the disease that results from getting the coronavirus infection (SARS-Cov-2).

At this stage it is unknown if being vaccinated prevents someone from spreading the infection. What is known is that it greatly reduces the likelihood of the virus progressing to the disease (Covid) stage.

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10 hours ago, monctonguy said:

LOL...what??!...IF the vaccines prevents you from getting Covid, then you cant spread what you don't have!!!!!....

 

On the other hand, if you get Covid..then the vaccine didn't work AND of course you can transmit it....

 

Please tell me all about the other vaccines we have that have eradicated certain diseases......but you could still get the disease and spread it if you had the vaccine......

 

 

Just because you don't have it don't think for a second you can't give it. It rides on your hair, clothes, hair, skin etc...  To your question about other vaccines, Measles comes to mind. I was one of the early  recipients of that vaccine from a Dr. Peebles (The Originator of the Vaccine)  in Boston as a toddler. I still contracted the disease and carried it to the neighbors family.  I would venture a guess there are many such  stories for a myriad of vaccines and diseases... 

 

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On 12/22/2020 at 6:36 PM, KWofPerth said:

I took issue with that post too, but chose not to respond at the time.

At this point it is unknown whether the vaccine prevents transmission. I assume this is because there has not been enough time pass since its trials to make an accurate determination. The ongoing phase IV trial will presumably give us an answer to this.

What we know that it does achieve, is provide a 95% likelihood of an infection not progressing to the covid19 disease.

Apologies for my layman's description, JeffB and others feel free to tighten up some of my terminology and descriptions where appropriate.

You are correct, they do not have enough information or evidence that you can't spread Covid even after vaccination. They are pretty sure to almost very sure but scientists need hard evidence of something before they declare it so. My guess is once a good portion, 20-30 million people have been vaccinated to know 100% whether you can spread. Its the reason masks will still be required for some time, distancing as well.

All I know is I cannot wait for the day its my turn. I will gladly go to my local Walgreens [same one I get my flu shot each year] and get my Covid vaccine. Cruise on August 22 on Oasis believe it or not, to me is still in danger, that far out. 😭

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RC won't require vaccinations but the CDC might.  The entire purpose of the Health Sail Panel and the CDC's CSO was on the premise that there was no vaccine at the time the work was done.  The protocols were created based on no vaccine and they are believed to be enough to allow ships to sail absent of a vaccine.

Personally I don't think the CDC plans to let ships sail until it doesn't matter if you have a vaccine or not.  Lobbyists and politicians may attempt to accelerate the date when ships sail and if that is successful then the CDC might require vaccinations as a condition to sail.

Time will tell.

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