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New CDC updates to CSO?


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12 minutes ago, JeffB said:

@twangster That's too dark a take for me. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water applies.

The CDC has a lot of very smart people working inside of it. I could rattle off some significant contributions they've made since they became a government agency in 1946. But as is typical, the CDC has gotten incredibly big. There are over 10K people on the payroll in Atlanta alone and they sport a 1.5B salary budget out of an $11B total budget.

Their size and organizational structure (who's in charge or the Abbot and Costello gig, who's on first) is their biggest weakness and has contributed mightily to their bungling of the SARS2 pandemic. 

I'd advocate to reorganize to make one of their agencies more agile and responsive to the next pandemic that will almost certainly occur. I think that is also in some of the legislation already submitted to Congress but not yet fully deliberated.

During congressional hearing this week Fauci was asked how many people in his organization were vaccinated and he said over half and then said around 60%.

The FDA director gave the same answer as Fauci

The CDC director, Walensky, failed to give a percentage and just deflected and then landed on the answer that the government has not made vaccines mandatory for the CDC

What signal does that send to the general public when their leading Health Orgs dont have a high vaccination rate? How can we get to the 70% of US population to be vaccinated that the CDC and Fauci claims for Herd Immunity when they cant even get to 70% in their own organizations. 

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42 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

During congressional hearing this week Fauci was asked how many people in his organization were vaccinated and he said over half and then said around 60%.

The FDA director gave the same answer as Fauci

The CDC director, Walensky, failed to give a percentage and just deflected and then landed on the answer that the government has not made vaccines mandatory for the CDC

What signal does that send to the general public when their leading Health Orgs dont have a high vaccination rate? How can we get to the 70% of US population to be vaccinated that the CDC and Fauci claims for Herd Immunity when they cant even get to 70% in their own organizations. 

Do as I say, not as I do.

A fundamental principle of the Executive and Legislative branches of our federal government.  Passed down and adopted by the CDC.

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1 hour ago, UNCFanatik said:

During congressional hearing this week Fauci was asked how many people in his organization were vaccinated and he said over half and then said around 60%.

The FDA director gave the same answer as Fauci

The CDC director, Walensky, failed to give a percentage and just deflected and then landed on the answer that the government has not made vaccines mandatory for the CDC

What signal does that send to the general public when their leading Health Orgs dont have a high vaccination rate? How can we get to the 70% of US population to be vaccinated that the CDC and Fauci claims for Herd Immunity when they cant even get to 70% in their own organizations. 

Not that I want to defend those guys, but the gov't can't ask its employees to get vaccinated nor can it ask if they've been vaccinated.

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8 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Not that I want to defend those guys, but the gov't can't ask its employees to get vaccinated nor can it ask if they've been vaccinated.

Why not?  I believe they have every right to “ask.”  They may not be able to demand it and that may be debatable subject to exceptions.

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9 minutes ago, Loops said:

Why not?  I believe they have every right to “ask.”  They may not be able to demand it and that may be debatable subject to exceptions.

Feds can't do anything that could be perceived as a mandate for employees to get an unapproved vaccine. 

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12 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Feds can't do anything that could be perceived as a mandate for employees to get an unapproved vaccine. 

Asking is not a mandate.  Are they not encouraging every eligible citizen and others to get the unapproved vaccine?  Another example of “Do as I say, not as I do”?

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23 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Not that I want to defend those guys, but the gov't can't ask its employees to get vaccinated nor can it ask if they've been vaccinated.

It's still interesting NIH and FDA has rough answers but the CDC had no idea.  

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I've read this thread pretty carefully and it prompted me to go to the CDC web site to review

The complexity of these four documents combined is mindboggling. Delrio's characterization of them that they are "unworkable" and restart in July for NCL "just isn't possible" makes sense to me.....if NCL actually plans on 100% compliance.

I served 20y in the USMC. One of the jobs I had was Occupational Safety Officer for an entire air base. This is OSHA. I thought their regulations were complex and mostly unworkable for military style operations even in peace time. You train for war and getting your aircraft serviced and full systems operationally ready. Worrying about what kinds of ladders you can use, how high they can be, isn't part of the curriculum. We ignored almost everything in the OSHA manuals we were supposed to be complying with. Most of the rules were silly, much like most of the rules in the CSO. Compliance would have drastically down graded our mission ready status. Compliance with the CSO would unnecessarily complicate operating a ship and significantly downgrade the experience of passengers.

What the cruise lines are being asked to comply with, what they are asking employees to implement and supervise compliance with for subordinatecrew and passengers alike, is way worse than anything OSHA wanted Marine maintenance types to comply with......most of which we feigned compliance with and only when an OSHA dude was around. We also pencil whipped logs. Don't get me wrong. Safety was a prime concern but I did not need the feds and OSHA around to tell us how to be safe while maintaining aircraft, runways and hangers. We had very good safety procedures and protocols long before OSHA showed up when it was decided military basis would fall under their control and supervision sometime in the mid to late 70s. Similar situation, different circumstances.

Until I went through and read these docs this afternoon, in their entirety, I was starting to ease into the realizations that, OK, in the absence of a favorable court ruling that enjoins the entire CSO, we can do this. Changed my mind. What I hope is happening out of public view and behind the scenes is that the cruise lines, having prepared what I consider a completely workable infection control plan drawn up by an internal Safe-to-Sail Panel, will implement this if the CSO isn't enjoined and feign compliance with the CSO. I knew how to do this in my line of work back then and I knew how to do it safely and get away with it. I suspect that among the tough and disciplined breed that RCG's Ship's Officers are that they know how to get away with it too.

There really is no reasonable way to comply with everything that is included in the the four documents I list above to the letter and continue to make cruising an enjoyable experience for guests. Where there is alignment with the CSO and what the Safe-to-Sail panel came up with, sure, go for it. Beyond that feign it and pencil whip the logs.

Onward and upward.    

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12 minutes ago, Floski said:

Thank you, Jeff for your service.  I've met a lot of super impressive Marines in my job.

Thank you for all of the great posts and clarifications.

Ditto and I see a job for Jeff at RCG! Kind of a head of counter intelligence but intelligence isn’t the word......head of counter stupidity? Help me out here. 

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On 5/15/2021 at 7:02 AM, smokeybandit said:

Interesting that proof of recovery is only good for the last 90 days.

That's because they believe that natural immunity only lasts 90 days.  That is what a nurse friend of mine told me.  I think it's hogwash.  I think that as normally happens this guidance will be updated once they have more months/years of data. There are always outliers in every situation. 

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13 minutes ago, emmef said:

That's because they believe that natural immunity only lasts 90 days.  That is what a nurse friend of mine told me.  I think it's hogwash.  I think that as normally happens this guidance will be updated once they have more months/years of data. There are always outliers in every situation. 

I think it falls under the category of "government stupidity" ...

Hey someone wants to know how long we think natural immunity lasts, what do we tell them ?

Lets see its been 90 days since the first case showed up so i guess we know it last 90 days ... go with that .

A year later .... yep 90 days sounds good ...

 

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47 minutes ago, emmef said:

That's because they believe that natural immunity only lasts 90 days.  That is what a nurse friend of mine told me.  I think it's hogwash.  I think that as normally happens this guidance will be updated once they have more months/years of data. There are always outliers in every situation. 

Which isn't true based on recent studies showing immunity going strong for 8+ months. Just another random number the CDC has come up with.

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Meh, doesn't look like much.

Looks like just a FAQ added.  Which could be a good thing if this means the cruise lines don't need shore agreements if the local gov't says it doesn't want to.

 

What if a cruise ship operator is unable to document the approval of all local health authorities for a Phase 2A port agreement?

In lieu of documenting the approval of all local health authorities of jurisdiction, the cruise ship operator may instead submit to CDC a signed statement from a local health authority, on the health authority’s official letterhead, indicating that the health authority has declined to participate in deliberations and/or sign the Phase 2A port agreement, i.e., a “Statement of Non-Participation.”

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21 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Another clarification was that disembarkation testing is only required for cruises longer than 4 nights.

Why would the length in time of the cruise matter?  More pure nonsense from the CDC!  If it’s not required for a four day cruise it shouldn’t be required for any length cruise.  What am I missing?

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13 minutes ago, Loops said:

Why would the length in time of the cruise matter?  More pure nonsense from the CDC!  If it’s not required for a four day cruise it shouldn’t be required for any length cruise.  What am I missing?

The length of the cruise matters because longer cruises mean more time/opportunities for potential exposure to Covid.

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9 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

I think it's the incubation period of covid being 5 days.  

So if you embark on day four after exposure you are infected most of the time of your four day cruise.  And if you are exposed on day two or later while on the cruise you may disembark infected and undetected.  I have a serious issue with the reliability of testing… I know numerous people who were tested and received false positives.

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