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Restricted passenger voyages CDC COS


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My understanding is that skipping the simulated voyages still requires cruise lines to follow these requirements in what's being called "Restricted Voyages" under the CSO. It is also my understanding that these are required even if the cruise lines meet the 95/98% vaccination requirement.

IMO, some of these are not possible (at least not with a full ship), and others essentially diminish the cruise experience to the point of it not being worth it. If you travelled to a city where 95%+ of the people were vaccinated and you still had to do these things I think we'd all call that absolutely ridiculous. Even the CDC estimates that if 70% of the population was vaccinated Covid would likely no longer be a threat. ?

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

I'll call out the ones I believe are the most impactful here from the various "requirements" sections. Quotes from CDC site are in plain text. My opinion is Italicized 

  • While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
    (This means wearing a mask the whole time you're in the MDR and not currently eating)
  • Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.
  • Reduce the bather load for each facility to meet social distancing When social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between bathers is not possible, such as in small whirlpool spas, RWFs should be used by the same family or traveling companions only. This can be accomplished by close monitoring.
    (Social distancing in pools and hot tubs mean very few people will be able to use these facilities at the same time)
  • Place seating area items located in or around RWFs, such as tables, chairs, loungers, sun beds, and poufs, 6 feet (2 meters) apart from each other to adhere to social distancing These items can be grouped together for families and traveling companions.
    (Again significantly reduces available capacity)
  • Elevators and Stairwells, Limit capacity, provide floor markings, and provide marked queuing areas to eliminate congregation
    (Elevators were difficult to get before, with limited 6ft distancing or only 1 party/each, impossible)
  • Change restaurant and bar layouts to ensure that all customer parties remain at least 6 feet (2 meters) apart (such as removing tables, stools, and chairs or marking any that are not for use). Limit seating capacity to allow for social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters).
  • Eliminate self-service food and drink options, such as self-service buffets, salad bars, and beverage stations.
    (I assume you'll need an attendant for any self service like freestyle or soft serve. Or they'll be closed)
  • Prohibit self-guided or independent exploration by passengers during port stops.

    Ensure all shore excursion tour companies facilitate social distancing to allow for at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, mask wearing, cleaning and disinfection, and other COVID-19 public health measures throughout the tour.

    Restrict passenger attendance so that proper social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, and risk mitigation protocols can be met.
    (This one takes the cake. Can't get off the ship without paying for an excursion, and the excursion can't bring parties within 6 feet of each other. Since when does the CDC control what a person does when they get off an airplane or any other conveyance for that matter in a foreign country?)

TLDR: The CDC requirement are still ridiculous, and laughable. It's as if they really don't believe the vaccines are effective. That's what these rules really suggest.

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I am by no means an expert or even all that well read on things but to me it seems as though the CDC wants to create as many unachievable obstacles as possible so that they can simply say, look we tried and you the cruise industry can't  follow them. The why (I always try to understand the why) they wants this doesn't make any sense to me. But them again what sense has the CDC made over the past year or so?

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8 minutes ago, Eirc said:

I am by no means an expert or even all that well read on things but to me it seems as though the CDC wants to create as many unachievable obstacles as possible so that they can simply say, look we tried and you the cruise industry can't  follow them. The why (I always try to understand the why) they wants this doesn't make any sense to me. But them again what sense has the CDC made over the past year or so?

Correct.  With every new update it usually becomes apparent it's more of the same.  

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38 minutes ago, 0_0 said:

My understanding is that skipping the simulated voyages still requires cruise lines to follow these requirements in what's being called "Restricted Voyages" under the CSO. It is also my understanding that these are required even if the cruise lines meet the 95/98% vaccination requirement.

IMO, some of these are not possible (at least not with a full ship), and others essentially diminish the cruise experience to the point of it not being worth it. If you travelled to a city where 95%+ of the people were vaccinated and you still had to do these things I think we'd all call that absolutely ridiculous. Even the CDC estimates that if 70% of the population was vaccinated Covid would likely no longer be a threat. ?

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

I'll call out the ones I believe are the most impactful here from the various "requirements" sections. Quotes from CDC site are in plain text. My opinion is Italicized 

  • While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
    (This means wearing a mask the whole time you're in the MDR and not currently eating)
  • Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.
  • Reduce the bather load for each facility to meet social distancing When social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between bathers is not possible, such as in small whirlpool spas, RWFs should be used by the same family or traveling companions only. This can be accomplished by close monitoring.
    (Social distancing in pools and hot tubs mean very few people will be able to use these facilities at the same time)
  • Place seating area items located in or around RWFs, such as tables, chairs, loungers, sun beds, and poufs, 6 feet (2 meters) apart from each other to adhere to social distancing These items can be grouped together for families and traveling companions.
    (Again significantly reduces available capacity)
  • Elevators and Stairwells, Limit capacity, provide floor markings, and provide marked queuing areas to eliminate congregation
    (Elevators were difficult to get before, with limited 6ft distancing or only 1 party/each, impossible)
  • Change restaurant and bar layouts to ensure that all customer parties remain at least 6 feet (2 meters) apart (such as removing tables, stools, and chairs or marking any that are not for use). Limit seating capacity to allow for social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters).
  • Eliminate self-service food and drink options, such as self-service buffets, salad bars, and beverage stations.
    (I assume you'll need an attendant for any self service like freestyle or soft serve. Or they'll be closed)
  • Prohibit self-guided or independent exploration by passengers during port stops.

    Ensure all shore excursion tour companies facilitate social distancing to allow for at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, mask wearing, cleaning and disinfection, and other COVID-19 public health measures throughout the tour.

    Restrict passenger attendance so that proper social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, and risk mitigation protocols can be met.
    (This one takes the cake. Can't get off the ship without paying for an excursion, and the excursion can't bring parties within 6 feet of each other. Since when does the CDC control what a person does when they get off an airplane or any other conveyance for that matter in a foreign country?)

TLDR: The CDC requirement are still ridiculous, and laughable. It's as if they really don't believe the vaccines are effective. That's what these rules really suggest.

All of the parts about the pool deck violate the CDC's own guidance on mask use by vaccinated people, which was itself a total joke.  The parts about "extended" meals isn't followed at any resaurant in the US.  

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I sent in a question using the "contact the CDC" page on their web site.  Here is the text.  We will see if I get a response.

"I have a question as to why you would require such draconain restrictions for people who are already vaccinated?  Requiring masks outdoors at the pool area violates your own guideance on mask use outdoors by vaccinated individuals.

The requirement for wearing masks during an "extended dinner" is laughable, and not followed in any US state even by those who are not vaccinated.

It is silly to put out there a plan for cruise lines to have 95% vaccinated cruises and make no distinction between those cruises, and those with non vaccinated people.

Please get your act together and as you always say, "follow the science""

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On 5/6/2021 at 7:12 AM, wordell1 said:

I sent in a question using the "contact the CDC" page on their web site.  Here is the text.  We will see if I get a response.

"I have a question as to why you would require such draconain restrictions for people who are already vaccinated?  Requiring masks outdoors at the pool area violates your own guideance on mask use outdoors by vaccinated individuals.

The requirement for wearing masks during an "extended dinner" is laughable, and not followed in any US state even by those who are not vaccinated.

It is silly to put out there a plan for cruise lines to have 95% vaccinated cruises and make no distinction between those cruises, and those with non vaccinated people.

Please get your act together and as you always say, "follow the science""

 

Please report back if the CDC responds. I’d love to see how they try to defend their actions. 

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On 5/6/2021 at 7:43 AM, 0_0 said:

My understanding is that skipping the simulated voyages still requires cruise lines to follow these requirements in what's being called "Restricted Voyages" under the CSO. It is also my understanding that these are required even if the cruise lines meet the 95/98% vaccination requirement.

IMO, some of these are not possible (at least not with a full ship), and others essentially diminish the cruise experience to the point of it not being worth it. If you travelled to a city where 95%+ of the people were vaccinated and you still had to do these things I think we'd all call that absolutely ridiculous. Even the CDC estimates that if 70% of the population was vaccinated Covid would likely no longer be a threat. ?

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

I'll call out the ones I believe are the most impactful here from the various "requirements" sections. Quotes from CDC site are in plain text. My opinion is Italicized 

  • While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order.
    (This means wearing a mask the whole time you're in the MDR and not currently eating)
  • Ensure bathers wear masks while congregating outside of recreational water facilities (RWFs) and while seated on the pool deck area. Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly. This means it is particularly important for bathers to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) when in the water with others who are not traveling companions or part of the same family.
  • Reduce the bather load for each facility to meet social distancing When social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between bathers is not possible, such as in small whirlpool spas, RWFs should be used by the same family or traveling companions only. This can be accomplished by close monitoring.
    (Social distancing in pools and hot tubs mean very few people will be able to use these facilities at the same time)
  • Place seating area items located in or around RWFs, such as tables, chairs, loungers, sun beds, and poufs, 6 feet (2 meters) apart from each other to adhere to social distancing These items can be grouped together for families and traveling companions.
    (Again significantly reduces available capacity)
  • Elevators and Stairwells, Limit capacity, provide floor markings, and provide marked queuing areas to eliminate congregation
    (Elevators were difficult to get before, with limited 6ft distancing or only 1 party/each, impossible)
  • Change restaurant and bar layouts to ensure that all customer parties remain at least 6 feet (2 meters) apart (such as removing tables, stools, and chairs or marking any that are not for use). Limit seating capacity to allow for social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters).
  • Eliminate self-service food and drink options, such as self-service buffets, salad bars, and beverage stations.
    (I assume you'll need an attendant for any self service like freestyle or soft serve. Or they'll be closed)
  • Prohibit self-guided or independent exploration by passengers during port stops.

    Ensure all shore excursion tour companies facilitate social distancing to allow for at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, mask wearing, cleaning and disinfection, and other COVID-19 public health measures throughout the tour.

    Restrict passenger attendance so that proper social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters) between individuals who are not traveling companions or part of the same family, and risk mitigation protocols can be met.
    (This one takes the cake. Can't get off the ship without paying for an excursion, and the excursion can't bring parties within 6 feet of each other. Since when does the CDC control what a person does when they get off an airplane or any other conveyance for that matter in a foreign country?)

TLDR: The CDC requirement are still ridiculous, and laughable. It's as if they really don't believe the vaccines are effective. That's what these rules really suggest.

This is exactly what there will be no cruising from US ports in July 

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9 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

This is exactly what there will be no cruising from US ports in July 

I go back and forth on how optimistic I am about cruises happening in 2021 from the US. 

I've decided I'm going to watch what RCI does with Adventure.  If they extend her stay in the Bahamas, I'll take that as a sign that RCI doesn't expect to start cruises out of the US until Adventure would be scheduled to appear somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, steverk said:

I go back and forth on how optimistic I am about cruises happening in 2021 from the US. 

I've decided I'm going to watch what RCI does with Adventure.  If they extend her stay in the Bahamas, I'll take that as a sign that RCI doesn't expect to start cruises out of the US until Adventure would be scheduled to appear somewhere else.

I agree 100%, I try to be as optimistic as I possibly can.  Reality, however, is creeping in now regarding July.  Short of getting the injunction this week (and I am not confident), I just can not visualize a path for July.

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7 hours ago, HBCcruiser said:

 

Please report back if the CDC responds. I’d love to see how they try to defend their actions. 

No response at all so far. Their actions don't even follow their own guidance on similar activities so how could they be defended?

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On 5/6/2021 at 10:12 AM, wordell1 said:

I sent in a question using the "contact the CDC" page on their web site.  Here is the text.  We will see if I get a response.

"We've printed your comment/question for further review."

Life Lol GIF by America's Funniest Home Videos

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7 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

Short of getting the injunction this week (and I am not confident), I just can not visualize a path for July.

Visualize it ....... how would you like to be a lawyer trying to defend the CDC's NSO and CSO? The NSO, given it's extent is unlawful. The CSO is laughable, unlawful and exceeds the authority of the CDS under U.S.C. 42. The only thing that will prevent the injunction is some kind of delay or technical issue, presented by the defendants, that the Judge hearing the case on Wednesday is required by the law to accept.  

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The CDC is trying to delay as much as they can to allow more people to get vaccinated, I think. They know cruising could safely be happening today, but they don’t want that, so they’re imposing difficult to ridiculous requirements that will by necessity extend the ban until late summer or early fall, when vaccination levels will be as high as they’re going to get. 
 

Then they’ll release their actual rules for cruises. 

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48 minutes ago, Craig 01020 said:

Who is going to enforce all the onerous "requirements" while on the ship? The same folks who enforce the "don't hog lounge chair" rules???

The CDC put into their operations manual that they can monitor cruises remotely or in person. So they've allowed themselves to tap into video monitoring of cruises and determine if there is too much non-compliance, at that point the CDC could forcefully end the cruise. ?

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