Vision Class and Radiance Class

[ApexoftheSeas]

When do you think royal caribbean is going to get rid of vision and radiance class? Will they replace them or will their smallest be freedom/voyager class?

[ApexoftheSeas]

I know they tried to get rid of grandeur of the seas in 2021. The newest voyager class is older than the newest radiance class, so voyager class will be gone before radiance fully is.

[Xaa]

When they can make more money without them than they do with them.

[bobroo]

Let's not forget the Radiance class have gas turbine engines. They are environmentally friendly and have almost zero wake. These are important traits for sailing to places like Alaska, Montenegro, New Orleans, and Norway--just to name a few. They also do not have that shudder other ships have from time to time.

My guess is Radiance ships stick around long, long past other classes because of their usefulness. And, if Royal would ever commission another small sized vessel, it will have similar turbines and have a lot of size and weight similarities to Brilliance, Jewel, Serenade, and Radiance.

[WAAAYTOOO]

We are on Serenade right now.  I had forgotten how beautiful and graceful these ships are.  I didn’t realize the smooth ride was a function of the gas turbine engines.  Interesting.  Thanks for that tidbit, @bobroo.

[Plumlee2028]

I imagine one or more of the vision class ships head out over the next 3-4 years to moderate the capacity growth.  With 4 ships in 4 years, and Utopia being the smallest of those, that is a ton of berths to bring in. Partially offsetting 5600 or so berths with 2500 leaving can go a long way towards moderating growth, and helping their Trifecta goals they established.  It's a slightly scaled down version of what became the Carnival Corp playbook over the past few years.  They exited 26 ships that were smaller, older, less efficient to bring in newer ships.  Royal did the same just before the restart when Odyssey came in, and Majesty and Empress were sold.  

[baltodave]

This is an interesting topic I raised with the captain of Radiance during our recent sailing.  The issue is that the Voyager class ships (and larger) won't fit under the bridges in places like Baltimore and Tampa.  In addition, (as @bobroo pointed out) there are some ports the larger ships can't go to.  The captain of Radiance did point out that there will be another class (currently named "Discovery class") that will be built in 2025 or later.  These will be smaller (but I don't know if small enough).  

On our recent Alaska cruise, we took Radiance and loved it.  Last year, I was on Rhapsody (Vision class) for a Greek/Adriatic cruise and it was also great (one of my favorites was Montenegro).  I'm not that interested in an "amusement park on water" and would rather experience the classic cruise experience and visit interesting destinations.

[Curt From Canada]

14 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

We are on Serenade right now.  I had forgotten how beautiful and graceful these ships are.  I didn’t realize the smooth ride was a function of the gas turbine engines.  Interesting.  Thanks for that tidbit, @bobroo.

Radiance Class ships are one of our favourites.  They have the best sea views (from all over the ship).  When sailing to the destinations where scenery is the "star" (Alaska, Norway, Panama Canal, Iceland, Antarctic and Canada [in the fall], etc) they are "must do" ships.  They have very few (maybe no) bells & whistles, but they are ships that help you feel like you are a part of the sea itself.  It will be very difficult to replace these ships.

@WAAAYTOOO ... We are greatly looking forward to Serenade in January.  We are particularly interested in:

1. Centrum Bar and dance floor:  Is it used for lots of live music? (Jewel in June was OK, Radiance in May was fantastic).
2. Speciality Dining:  Is there anything of note? (Chef's Table on Jewel was excellent, but it is hard to mess up a meal with that much wine in one sitting). 
3. Diamond Lounge:  On neither Radiance nor Jewel did they open up the Diamond Lounge at night to the "Viking Crown Lounge".  The Diamond Lounge was always too packed to be of use.  Which arrangement are they using?
4. Name of best Bartender in the Centrum:  We tend to hang out there a lot.
5. Anything special of note?

Our sense is that Serenade to Antartica will be very different.  An Ultimate World Cruise will introduce a very new dynamic.  Still, we are interested in anything special about Serenade.

Curt from Canada

[Shari]

The Vision class ships are currently the only ships used to traverse the St Lawrence River to Quebec.  That area of the river has a maximum ship length of 294 meters and beam of 44 meters. The Radiance class ships barely fit also.  So these itineraries would go away if both of these classes of ships go away.  I do not think that RCL will eliminate the Vision or Radiance class ships any time soon.

[smokeybandit]

I'd say 10+ years from now, unless some great deal on a newer, smaller ship comes along.

[WAAAYTOOO]

2 hours ago, Curt From Canada said:

Radiance Class ships are one of our favourites.  They have the best sea views (from all over the ship).  When sailing to the destinations where scenery is the "star" (Alaska, Norway, Panama Canal, Iceland, Antarctic and Canada [in the fall], etc) they are "must do" ships.  They have very few (maybe no) bells & whistles, but they are ships that help you feel like you are a part of the sea itself.  It will be very difficult to replace these ships.

@WAAAYTOOO ... We are greatly looking forward to Serenade in January.  We are particularly interested in:

1. Centrum Bar and dance floor:  Is it used for lots of live music? (Jewel in June was OK, Radiance in May was fantastic).
2. Speciality Dining:  Is there anything of note? (Chef's Table on Jewel was excellent, but it is hard to mess up a meal with that much wine in one sitting). 
3. Diamond Lounge:  On neither Radiance nor Jewel did they open up the Diamond Lounge at night to the "Viking Crown Lounge".  The Diamond Lounge was always too packed to be of use.  Which arrangement are they using?
4. Name of best Bartender in the Centrum:  We tend to hang out there a lot.
5. Anything special of note?

Our sense is that Serenade to Antartica will be very different.  An Ultimate World Cruise will introduce a very new dynamic.  Still, we are interested in anything special about Serenade.

Curt from Canada

I will check out some of this for you and get back.  The ship is beautiful, but we really love the R class ships anyway. Stay tuned 

[twangster]

3 hours ago, Shari said:

The Vision class ships are currently the only ships used to traverse the St Lawrence River to Quebec.  That area of the river has a maximum ship length of 294 meters and beam of 44 meters. The Radiance class ships barely fit also.  So these itineraries would go away if both of these classes of ships go away.  I do not think that RCL will eliminate the Vision or Radiance class ships any time soon.

Québec City has often had Voyager class ships.  I sailed Adventure from there on a "Snowbird" sailing.  

Montreal is another story.  Only smaller ships can go past Québec City to Montreal.  

[twangster]

Royal's greatest challenge with Vision class is finding a new home for them that won't create or bolster a competitor that would erode bookings in places where Royal operates.  Someone offering short Florida cruises for example, for some crazy low rate.

Empress went to India.  That's perfect since Royal doesn't operate in India.  

What Royal can't afford to do is sell off a ship only to then compete with the new owner who could offer cut rate prices having purchased a ship for very little money.  Faced with that possibility they are better to keep the aging ship and use it service places where their other ships can't go.  Such as Tampa and Baltimore.  At this point the asset, the ship, is paid off, or may have some debt associated with pandemic loans where ships were used to secure the debt.  

It some weird manner it may be better to hold onto the aging asset so long as it doesn't mean losing a lot of money to do so.

[Last Lion]

Both classes provide the “classic” cruise ship experience. I have sailed on six of the eight ships.

Not obsessing on it, but going for the clean sweep in the next couple of years.

Did Empress & Majesty in their last year with the company- although we did not know it at the time.

 

[Sweety]

7 hours ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

We are on Serenade right now.  I had forgotten how beautiful and graceful these ships are.  I didn’t realize the smooth ride was a function of the gas turbine engines.  Interesting.  Thanks for that tidbit, @bobroo.

I love Serenade. We did a B2B.

[Neesa]

47 minutes ago, Sweety said:

I love Serenade. We did a B2B.

+1 we loved her as well. 

[Jill]

I wouldn’t mind if they kept the smaller ships as we are getting to that “age” where the ports are the main focus. Just would like to see them updated. 

[twangster]

20 hours ago, bobroo said:

Let's not forget the Radiance class have gas turbine engines. They are environmentally friendly and have almost zero wake. These are important traits for sailing to places like Alaska, Montenegro, New Orleans, and Norway--just to name a few. They also do not have that shudder other ships have from time to time.

My guess is Radiance ships stick around long, long past other classes because of their usefulness. And, if Royal would ever commission another small sized vessel, it will have similar turbines and have a lot of size and weight similarities to Brilliance, Jewel, Serenade, and Radiance.

They run a mix with around 70-80% of aviation type fuel and the rest conventional MGO fuel.

However aviation fuel isn't "clean" fuel.  Radiance class were "environmentally friendly" by the measure of that claim 20+ years ago.  By today's standards?  Not so much.

You won't find them in Norway's fjords beyond 2025 when their new emission standards go into effect.    If other similar regions follow suit they will be relegated to the Caribbean not much different than old Carnival ships.   

New ships being engineered today for deployment over the next few years will have LNG for "green" technology even though the world recognizes LNG isn't that "green" either.  LNG is just the least of all evils available to ships at the moment.  In 20 years LNG will be viewed just as MGO is today.  

[AlmondFarmer]

44 minutes ago, twangster said:

You won't find them in Norway's fjords beyond 2025 when their new emission standards go into effect.

Extension cord technology has come a long way. I expect a plug in electric vessel will be ready for Norway before 2025.
I’ve also heard it is possible to harness the power of wind to propel a ship. This technology will comply with Norways emission standards, until 2050. 

[smokeybandit]

The only ships going to the fjords by then will be the ones that can run on hydrogen for brief periods.

[Curt From Canada]

4 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

The only ships going to the fjords by then will be the ones that can run on hydrogen for brief periods.

We just spent 12 days in Norway on Jewel and glad that we did.  In each fjord, we spent 2-3 hours on our balcony relaxing, eating, drinking and soaking up as much of the fjord as we could.  It was different than any other cruising experience we have had.  Norway appears to be serious about limiting Cruise Ship traffic in 2025, but the details were not entirely clear when we were there.  One sub-optimal solution is already in place.

There are 100% electric Cruise "ships" that shuttle back and forth within a fjord.  Although I would rather be on my balcony sailing into the fjord, there may be Cruise "ship" shuttles that take you in and back during the day.  Not optimal, but the fjords are worth it.  I think the link below takes you to a website that shows the "ship", the trip and the technology.  My guess is there will be many detailed discussions and modifications between Cruise Lines and Norway to determine how to coordinate between electric Cruise "ship" shuttles and ocean going Cruise Ships.  

https://www.norwaysbest.com/things-to-do/fjords/fjord-cruise-naeroyfjord/

My sense is hydrogen or electric ocean going cruise ships are a long way off.  Norway might make an exception for LNG, but that is unclear currently.

Again, glad we went in 2023.

I hope this helps ...

Curt from Canada

 

[Curt From Canada]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

You won't find them in Norway's fjords beyond 2025 when their new emission standards go into effect.    If other similar regions follow suit they will be relegated to the Caribbean not much different than old Carnival ships.   

Norway is way out in front on this.  My guess is that Alaska, Panama Canal, South America, Antartica, Asia and Canada (we have fjords too ) will take some time.  I hope the Radiance class ships "land" there until newer "connected to the sea" cruise ship options are developed.

Curt from Canada

[Last Lion]

Norway is the world’s 8th largest oil exporter and the 3rd largest natural gas exporter.

Yet they are as fussy as a poodle about emissions from a few cruise ships.

Bit hypocritical don’t you think?

[AlmondFarmer]

Royal could utilize nuclear power. The ship would need to be a bit longer to accommodate the reactor, probably 1,320 feet long.

Quarter mile island of the Seas.

Imagine 12 of these ships lined up. It would be a Three Mile Island. 

This name should probably be focus grouped to determine if it deters travel. 

[smokeybandit]

22 minutes ago, Curt From Canada said:

My sense is hydrogen or electric ocean going cruise ships are a long way off.

Viking already has one. Granted the hydrogen cell has very limited use. 

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/shipbuilding-refurb-equipment/fincantieri-delivers-viking-neptune-hydrogen-fuel-cell-module

[Curt From Canada]

40 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Viking already has one. Granted the hydrogen cell has very limited use. 

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/shipbuilding-refurb-equipment/fincantieri-delivers-viking-neptune-hydrogen-fuel-cell-module

Yes ... the beginning is alway important, and usually in small beta test mode.

Not sure how Norway will view partial electric (I think 100kW is enough energy to power 3-5 houses ... 6,000 to 7,000kW does not cover an entire ocean going ship either).  Norway's 400 passenger Cruise "ships" are 100% electric (and purpose built for fjords, so they are much smaller and carbon-fibre light).  It appears what they are going for zero emissions (This appears to be a long way off for Ocean going Cruise Ships).

My guess is ocean going vessels will need Hydrogen, Nuclear, Wind, Solar or a combination of those to be zero emissions vessels.  I am certain they are all working on it, but it is a costly and very big Engineering task.

Curt from Canada

[smokeybandit]

1 minute ago, Curt From Canada said:

Yes ... the beginning is alway important, and usually in small beta test mode.

Not sure how Norway will view partial electric (I think 100kW is enough energy to power 3-5 houses ... 6,000 to 7,000kW does not cover an entire ocean going ship either).  Norway's 400 passenger Cruise "ships" are 100% electric (and purpose built for fjords, so they are much smaller and carbon-fibre light).  It appears what they are going for zero emissions (This appears to be a long way off for Ocean going Cruise Ships).

My guess is ocean going vessels will need Hydrogen, Nuclear, Wind, Solar or a combination of those to be zero emissions vessels.  I am certain they are all working on it, but it is a costly and very big Engineering task.

Curt from Canada

There was an article I read recently that said that the hydrogen cells would initially only be used for zero emission areas like nature preserves or while docked where shore power wasn't available. Then other areas use traditional fuel sources.

[Curt From Canada]

9 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

There was an article I read recently that said that the hydrogen cells would initially only be used for zero emission areas like nature preserves or while docked where shore power wasn't available. Then other areas use traditional fuel sources.

I am definitely on the Hydrogen "Rowboat of Happiness" [pun intended]   It is a big part of the "answer".  It has the shortest time to implementation and an "OK" fuel density.  

Still, Hydrogen is probably way off in the future for large scale implementation (even to cover a 1-2 hour sail in through a fjord).  Norway introduced 100% short haul electric for a reason (quick, easy to implement [they are in use today] and "fit for use" [rather than the multi-purpose demands of an ocean going vessel]). (Important note ... they were heavily subsidized by the Norwegian Oil Industry.  They were not cheap).  My sense is that the reason we hear so much about LNG is because the technology is here right now, and the Cruising industry hopes that it will be good enough for most jurisdictions.

I am glad my soulmate and I went to Norway when we did ...

Curt from Canada

[steverk]

3 hours ago, Curt From Canada said:

Norway is way out in front on this.  My guess is that Alaska, Panama Canal, South America, Antartica, Asia and Canada (we have fjords too ) will take some time.  I hope the Radiance class ships "land" there until newer "connected to the sea" cruise ship options are developed.

Curt from Canada

I kinda think that Norway is trying to help one of their own cruise lines.

Hurtigruten has the MS Roal Amundsen, which is a hybrid. It is capable of running for several hours on batteries alone. 

I'm not saying this is the future, but it looks like a short term solution to cruising Norway, and it give Hurtigruten a decisive advantage for the near term. ((4) MS ROALD AMUNDSEN ANTARCTIC season 2020/2021 #cruiseship #expitionship #antarctica #hurtigruten - YouTube)

On the main topic of this conversation, I'm always willing to take a SWAG at the future, even when I don't know what I'm talking about!  Therefore, this is my forecast. 

Royal will announce a new class of ship to replace Vision, Radiance and Voyager classes within the next 2-3 years. It will have the following characteristics:

1. It will be "small" when compared to Icon, but larger than the 3 classes it is replacing.  Probably about 140,000 GT. 
2. It will be able it to transit the new Panama Canal and to access ports in places like Norway and Alaska.
3. It will be "zero emissions" for at least short periods of time to allow sailing in and out of environmentally sensitive areas.
4. It will not be able to go under bridges in ports like Baltimore and Tampa.  Ultimately, these ports will either have to relocate their cruise ports to avoid the bridges or be left behind. I'm sorry to those that like these ports, but I just don't see Royal building a new class of ship for these ports.

Royal will operate the Vision, Radiance and Voyager classes as long as possible.  They'll even be operating after the new class is launched, but mostly in secondary markets or in unusual port intensive itineraries. For example, Jewel is going a Greenland cruise this September.  I'd expect this kind of itinerary experimentation to continue using these older ships.

 

[Jill]

I was planning to book alaska in 2025 but now seriously considering Norway. It’s on our bucket list. I thought the changes in Norway were after the 2025 season. I hope so.  
 

I was all excited when it was thought odyssey was replacing anthem in the UK and I wanted to book Odyssey to Norway. Now the port schedule is saying Independence out of the UK. Guess I’ll know come this November when dates are released. 

[Rackham]

36 minutes ago, Jill said:

I was planning to book alaska in 2025 but now seriously considering Norway. It’s on our bucket list. I thought the changes in Norway were after the 2025 season. I hope so.  
 

I was all excited when it was thought odyssey was replacing anthem in the UK and I wanted to book Odyssey to Norway. Now the port schedule is saying Independence out of the UK. Guess I’ll know come this November when dates are released. 

The implantation of zero emission ships in Norway's World Heritage fjords has to start no later than 2026, but certain rules may go into effect before then. Quality information is somewhat hard to come by, but there is a chance certain rules might go into effect in 2025 which would prohibit Royal from running their ships in these fjords. We'll find out later this year if Royal will be able to run itineraries with these stops. Though due to the cruise contract, if Royal is uncertain themselves, they might go ahead and put itineraries with these ports on sale, then change the itinerary later (because the cruise contract allows them to) if they're unable to visit.

[Jill]

1 hour ago, Rackham said:

The implantation of zero emission ships in Norway's World Heritage fjords has to start no later than 2026, but certain rules may go into effect before then. Quality information is somewhat hard to come by, but there is a chance certain rules might go into effect in 2025 which would prohibit Royal from running their ships in these fjords. We'll find out later this year if Royal will be able to run itineraries with these stops. Though due to the cruise contract, if Royal is uncertain themselves, they might go ahead and put itineraries with these ports on sale, then change the itinerary later (because the cruise contract allows them to) if they're unable to visit.

Dang. I can’t swing 2024. Already have Icon and a Viking river cruise booked in Europe. I’m crossing my fingers.