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Guess i was wrong thinking that Celebrity wanted to be fined so they would have standing in court to sue the state of Florida.

But they are going to charge those un-vaccinated passengers for both the embarkation and debarkation Covid Tests.  Also those pasenger will be required to mask at all time indor other than drinking and eating.

What remains to be seen is just how much that charge will be

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There's some excellent comments following Matt's home page post on Celebrity's updated policy of not "asking for proof of vaccination." I'd recommend you go to the home page and read them.

One has to be very clear when stating what Celebrity has decided to do. They aren't asking for proof of vaccination. Statements made by Celebrity officials indicates this is to comply with FL's law. These officials also state that Celebrity ships will still sail at 95% of passengers being vaccinated.

It appears that this is a carrot and stick approach and in Matt's report at the home page, Lutof-Perlo states it's on Celebrity to insure they sail at 95% for health and safety reasons and the sailing will be "managed" at the corporate level to accomplish that.

I can see exactly how they can do that:

  • (1) If you do not volunteer that you've been vaccinated and prove it, you'll be considered unvaccinated.
  • (2) If unvaccinated and you are over 18 you will be required to undergo an RT-PCR test at the passenger's expense; under 18s, under 16s after August first will be provided an antigen test at Celebrity's expense....... around $200-$300 for the RT-PCR test for adult couples, then sit and wait for the results before you can board, probably for a long time. If you become uncooperative guess what? Denied boarding.
  • (3) If you clear check in screening and testing protocols for those that by their unwillingness to volunteer vaccination status and are therefore considered unvaccinated, once you are aboard, you will be subject to the rules of the ship's master and protocols he may require that those who volunteered their vaccination status and could prove it will not be subject to. Masks, distancing, potential for denied disembarkation in ports of call, cabin reassignment/restrictions, regular testing, dining and activity restrictions, etc. 
  • (4) This is what Perloff means by managing the sailing for the purpose of health and safety - and it's in the cruise contract that steps like this can be taken by the Master of the ship. 

But, but, but, I'm being treated differently which is what the FL law is fundamentally about. Well, nope. The approach above is entirely legal aboard a vessel that is working to provide the safest and healthiest environment for guests and employees. Back at ya, CSO and Ron, you can't touch this.

I'd call this a work-around to comply with the FL law and to invoke the powers of the vessel's Master.  I would not call it "backing down." 

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20 minutes ago, JeffB said:

There's some excellent comments following Matt's home page post on Celebrity's updated policy of not "asking for proof of vaccination." I'd recommend you go to the home page and read them.

One has to be very clear when stating what Celebrity has decided to do. They aren't asking for proof of vaccination. Statements made by Celebrity officials indicates this is to comply with FL's law. These officials also state that Celebrity ships will still sail at 95% of passengers being vaccinated.

It appears that this is a carrot and stick approach and in Matt's report at the home page, Lutof-Perlo states it's on Celebrity to insure they sail at 95% for health and safety reasons and the sailing will be "managed" at the corporate level to accomplish that.

I can see exactly how they can do that:

  • (1) If you do not volunteer that you've been vaccinated and prove it, you'll be considered unvaccinated.
  • (2) If unvaccinated and you are over 18 you will be required to undergo an RT-PCR test at the passenger's expense; under 18s, under 16s after August first will be provided an antigen test at Celebrity's expense....... around $200-$300 for the RT-PCR test for adult couples, then sit and wait for the results before you can board, probably for a long time. If you become uncooperative guess what? Denied boarding.
  • (3) If you clear check in screening and testing protocols for those that by their unwillingness to volunteer vaccination status and are therefore considered unvaccinated, once you are aboard, you will be subject to the rules of the ship's master and protocols he may require that those who volunteered their vaccination status and could prove it will not be subject to. Masks, distancing, potential for denied disembarkation in ports of call, cabin reassignment/restrictions, regular testing, dining and activity restrictions, etc. 
  • (4) This is what Perloff means by managing the sailing for the purpose of health and safety - and it's in the cruise contract that steps like this can be taken by the Master of the ship. 

But, but, but, I'm being treated differently which is what the FL law is fundamentally about. Well, nope. The approach above is entirely legal aboard a vessel that is working to provide the safest and healthiest environment for guests and employees. Back at ya, CSO and Ron, you can't touch this.

I'd call this a work-around to comply with the FL law and to invoke the powers of the vessel's Master.  I would not call it "backing down." 

Right, but it’s still a win for Desantis.  I don’t think he probably cares to go to the mattresses on this one, he just wants to be able to say he fought the fight.  It’s a win for both sides.  

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1 hour ago, CruiseGus said:

But they are going to charge those un-vaccinated passengers for both the embarkation and debarkation Covid Tests.  Also those pasenger will be required to mask at all time indor other than drinking and eating.

What remains to be seen is just how much that charge will be

Wonder if this was what Richard Fain had hinted at the other day in his video.

 

I'm going to assume Celebrity has a lot faith that 95 percent of their guests will be willing to show proof of vaccination. Problem that comes into play are the two ships that have requested a Conditional Sailing Certificate on the basis of having a 95 percent passenger vaccination rate. Unless Celebrity plans on back tracking and going with simulated voyages. This snip below is from an exhibit with the FL vs CDC/HHS case

image.png.1126b0c1a3f1aeb0d271ce0cdbc740a0.png

 

Only question I ponder is on the off chance a ship using the 95 percent exemption for the CSC is unable to meet the requirements.

 

44 minutes ago, JeffB said:

(2) If unvaccinated and you are over 18 you will be required to undergo an RT-PCR test at the passenger's expense; under 18s, under 16s after August first will be provided an antigen test at Celebrity's expense....... around $200-$300 for the RT-PCR test for adult couples, then sit and wait for the results before you can board, probably for along time.

This has been one of my theories for a while. 

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I have many thoughts about the comment section on Matt’s blog post but I will keep them to myself…lol

But this has raised a few questions for me that may have been answered before:

1. When someone books with Celebrity on a 95% vaccinated sailing, are they asked about their vaccination status?

2. Will there be a CDC or health official  in the terminal on embarkation day verifying that the sailing is indeed 95% vaccinated? 
 

3. If so, what is the criteria to authorize a sailing to commence to verify 95% of passengers are vaccinated? 
 

4. How will CDC/health officials verify at the terminal if the cruise passengers are truly vaccinated? Do they take the word of Celebrity? Will they require guest to show vaccination record at the terminal when checking in? Without verifying vaccination status of guest, can the CDC actually confirm that Celebrity is meeting the vaccine threshold? 
 

5. what happens if the sailing is 90-94% vaccinated for instance, game over? 
 

In summary, regardless of what Celebrity does, how does the CDC enforce and verify the condition of the CSO is being met? How does the CDC enforce this in the terminal prior to sailing without running afoul of FL vaccine passport law? 
 

 

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Good questions. I'll try by offfering my two cents:

1. When someone books with Celebrity on a 95% vaccinated sailing, are they asked about their vaccination status?

No, not as I understand it. I think that kind of approach runs afoul of the FL law which RCG (all brands sailing from FL ports) seems to want to comply with - or at least avoid a confrontation with Desantis (the not a hill I want to defend approach). I remain 99% certain the law would fail a court challnge but as I've also opined, why challenge it in a costly and time consuming court battle. Maybe Delrio wants to do that - fine - let him. RCG? Nope.

2. Will there be a CDC or health official  in the terminal on embarkation day verifying that the sailing is indeed 95% vaccinated? 

Probably not but I suspect there will be federal PH officials there to observe operations as the CSO allows for. There will also be CDC health officials on board during the sailing to inspect records the CSO requires. Among those are going to be a record of passengers who did not volunteer their vaccination status. Total Pax, minus that number, divided by 100 determines if Celebrity achieved what they said they would ..... if not it won't end the cruise but the CSC could be revoked preventing future revenue sailings on Edge out of PEV.

3. If so, what is the criteria to authorize a sailing to commence to verify 95% of passengers are vaccinated? 

No red-light, green light at the terminal. See above.

4. How will CDC/health officials verify at the terminal if the cruise passengers are truly vaccinated? Do they take the word of Celebrity? Will they require guest to show vaccination record at the terminal when checking in? Without verifying vaccination status of guest, can the CDC actually confirm that Celebrity is meeting the vaccine threshold? 

Not at the terminal but aboard ship and during the sailing verification. I don't think the CDC (or FL State Troopers!) will be there to play bad guys. See above.

5. what happens if the sailing is 90-94% vaccinated for instance, game over? 

After the fact. See below.

In summary, regardless of what Celebrity does, how does the CDC enforce and verify the condition of the CSO is being met? How does the CDC enforce this in the terminal prior to sailing without running afoul of FL vaccine passport law? 

Determining the actual count of unvaccinated pax aboard isn't difficult given records that the ship is going to have and are available for inspection by CDC officials sailing with Edge. It is clearly in Celebrity's interests to accurately know whether or not the ship reached the 98/95% threshold. That is because their application for and approval of Edge's CSC is dependent on proving that they reached that threshold. Since any CDC enforcement action would likely be after the fact, terminal enforcement isn't necessary. After the fact enforcement would be in the form of revocation of Edge's CSO and a need for Celebrity to reapply for one potentially under a test cruise pathway.  

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13 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Good questions. I'll try by offfering my two cents:

1. When someone books with Celebrity on a 95% vaccinated sailing, are they asked about their vaccination status?

No, not as I understand it. I think that kind of approach runs afoul of the FL law which RCG (all brands sailing from FL ports) seems to want to comply with - or at least avoid a confrontation with Desantis (the not a hill I want to defend approach). I remain 99% certain the law would fail a court challnge but as I've also opined, why challenge it in a costly and time consuming court battle. Maybe Delrio wants to do that - fine - let him. RCG? Nope.

2. Will there be a CDC or health official  in the terminal on embarkation day verifying that the sailing is indeed 95% vaccinated? 

Probably not but I suspect there will be federal PH officials there to observe operations as the CSO allows for. There will also be CDC health officials on board during the sailing to inspect records the CSO requires. Among those are going to be a record of passengers who did not volunteer their vaccination status. Total Pax, minus that number, divided by 100 determines if Celebrity achieved what they said they would ..... if not it won't end the cruise but the CSC could be revoked preventing future revenue sailings on Edge out of PEV.

3. If so, what is the criteria to authorize a sailing to commence to verify 95% of passengers are vaccinated? 

No red-light, green light at the terminal. See above.

4. How will CDC/health officials verify at the terminal if the cruise passengers are truly vaccinated? Do they take the word of Celebrity? Will they require guest to show vaccination record at the terminal when checking in? Without verifying vaccination status of guest, can the CDC actually confirm that Celebrity is meeting the vaccine threshold? 

Not at the terminal but aboard ship and during the sailing verification. I don't think the CDC (or FL State Troopers!) will be there to play bad guys. See above.

5. what happens if the sailing is 90-94% vaccinated for instance, game over? 

After the fact. See below.

In summary, regardless of what Celebrity does, how does the CDC enforce and verify the condition of the CSO is being met? How does the CDC enforce this in the terminal prior to sailing without running afoul of FL vaccine passport law? 

Determining the actual count of unvaccinated pax aboard isn't difficult given records that the ship is going to have and are available for inspection by CDC officials sailing with Edge. It is clearly in Celebrity's interests to accurately know whether or not the ship reached the 98/95% threshold. That is because their application for and approval of Edge's CSC is dependent on proving that they reached that threshold. Since any CDC enforcement action would likely be after the fact, terminal enforcement isn't necessary. After the fact enforcement would be in the form of revocation of Edge's CSO and a need for Celebrity to reapply for one potentially under a test cruise pathway.  

Thanks for the response!

Interesting that there will be no CDC enforcement of vaccine thresholds prior to sailing only post cruise penalties

Yes, I agree its in Celebrity's best interest to comply fully with the vaccine conditions that the CDC has granted them. 

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Buck, is there something in the literature that leads you to believe that there will be CDC officials onboard to " inspect records the CSO requires" ?  That seems a little Gestapo to me.  I can't believe that they would allow the ship to completely board and THEN try and determine whether they have any violators aboard.  I haven't perused the new protocols carefully so maybe there is language in there that indicates that the records would be evaluated after boarding.  I understand that the FL law is complicating things but this doesn't seem like a rational approach to me.

Thanks !

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1 hour ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

Buck, is there something in the literature that leads you to believe that there will be CDC officials onboard to " inspect records the CSO requires" ?  That seems a little Gestapo to me.  I can't believe that they would allow the ship to completely board and THEN try and determine whether they have any violators aboard.  I haven't perused the new protocols carefully so maybe there is language in there that indicates that the records would be evaluated after boarding.  I understand that the FL law is complicating things but this doesn't seem like a rational approach to me.

Thanks !

It's in the 77 page CSO. No time to go back and find it but I distinctly remember that (1) the CSO specifies certain records that must be kept that appeared tome to be above and beyond what the ships would normally keep. (2) There is verbiage in the CSO that stipulates that the CDC at it's sole discretion can place PH personnel on the ship during a cruise to observe operations, check they are in compliance with the updated VSP and are not to be interfered with in the accomplishment of their duties ..... yes, it was when it was published and will be in practice pretty "gestapo like."

The lines have become fairly comfortable it appears with CSO compliance in all it's spectacular regulation. It seems they've taken on the meme, "don't rock the boat." I'm getting used to the idea it is going to be a part of the new cruising life for a while. I can live with it. Getting back aboard, even under potentially less desirable circumstances, is my objective at this time. I'm done complaining about stuff. I'll adjust. Let me cruise. 

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12 hours ago, JeffB said:

(2) If unvaccinated and you are over 18 you will be required to undergo an RT-PCR test at the passenger's expense; under 18s, under 16s after August first will be provided an antigen test at Celebrity's expense....... around $200-$300 for the RT-PCR test for adult couples, then sit and wait for the results before you can board, probably for a long time. If you become uncooperative guess what? Denied boarding.

  • (3) If you clear check in screening and testing protocols for those that by their unwillingness to volunteer vaccination status and are therefore considered unvaccinated, once you are aboard, you will be subject to the rules of the ship's master and protocols he may require that those who volunteered their vaccination status and could prove it will not be subject to. Masks, distancing, potential for denied disembarkation in ports of call, cabin reassignment/restrictions, regular testing, dining and activity restrictions, etc. 
  • (4) This is what Perloff means by managing the sailing for the purpose of health and safety - and it's in the cruise contract that steps like this can be taken by the Master of the ship. 

But, but, but, I'm being treated differently which is what the FL law is fundamentally about. Well, nope. The approach above is entirely legal aboard a vessel that is working to provide the safest and healthiest environment for guests and employees. Back at ya, CSO and Ron, you can't touch this.

I'd call this a work-around to comply with the FL law and to invoke the powers of the vessel's Master.  I would not call it "backing down." 

ok I will agree "backing down" might just be the wrong wording. 

Like you thoughts on approach, though I think $200-$300 per couple for testing is a little low to deter un-vaccinated passengers from wanting to board.  Just a point of reference last month or maybe April we were waiting at DFW for a flight and siting right next to the on-site testing station and I saw someone go there who was flying internationaly and need a test as his results hadn't come in, he told me that charged him $225 for a test.

 

BTW good to see @WAAAYTOOO back posting again

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9 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

Like you thoughts on approach, though I think $200-$300 per couple for testing is a little low to deter un-vaccinated passengers from wanting to board. 

Not @JeffBbut for me, I agree that the cost of testing would not deter us.  I would gladly pay for testing BUT we will not get a nose/brain swab under any conditions....so unless we are allowed to do a cheek swab or a saliva test, it will be a hard "no" for us.  We do not know what the tests will be yet so we're holding short for the time being. We don't mind wearing masks and we couldn't care less about being restricted from leaving the ship in ports. We almost never get off in the Caribbean anyway.  I truly do not believe that they are going to restrict non-vaxxed from any area of the ship or segregate us.  I just don't see that happening.  Guess we'll just have to see how it goes !

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I will not debate this issue anymore on here but I would like to see antibody test results being accepted because that would serve the same purpose of requiring passengers to be vaccinated. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out and how well the CDC can accurately enforce these vaccinated thresholds. 

I remember flying to Rochester NY in February this year and the State of NY requiring airline passengers to fill out health declarations that we were instructed to just place them in a box at a table in the airline terminal. No verifying identifies or anything. And you cant tell me that some government employee was pouring through 1000s of forms and entering info it some contact tracing system

I think a level of the enforcement by the CDC will be a matter of theater. 

 

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7 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

So agree with you about antibody and natural immunity.  I think it will come about soon.

From what I have read, European countries are already viewing vaccinated and 'recovered' individuals in the same category. Additionally, research results in the US that prove natural immunity and vaccine immunity to be the same are gaining traction.  If all of this is taken into account, the Cruise lines should be able to sail at nearly 100% passenger immunity without additional costs, restrictions, lawsuits or needless political debate.

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37 minutes ago, Ogilthorpe said:

From what I have read, European countries are already viewing vaccinated and 'recovered' individuals in the same category. Additionally, research results in the US that prove natural immunity and vaccine immunity to be the same are gaining traction.  If all of this is taken into account, the Cruise lines should be able to sail at nearly 100% passenger immunity without additional costs, restrictions, lawsuits or needless political debate.

Last three posts are on point. We've recently seen the media do an about face on the virus's (not sure how that one is spelled) origins, and I believe an about face on narutal immunity vs. vax immunity is coming. 
 

Not to let this drift away (intended) from cruising, I think that when this "revelation" happens, as you said, things will become FAR easier for the cruise lines to manage.

I don't envy the cruise lines, having to plan for all the possibilities:

1. CSO is enjoined and public health guidance remains as is.

2. CSO is enjoined and public health guidance changes.

3. CSO is not enjoined but major CSO changes happen and no public health guidance changes.

3. CSO is not enjoined but major CSO changes happen and public health guidance changes.

5. CSO is not enjoined, major CSO changes do not happen and public health guidance changes.

6. CSO is not enjoined, major CSO changes do not happen and public health guidance remains the same.

 

This doesn't even cover vaccine passport laws in FL and TX now. It's exhausting. No wonder we run into each cruise line, port, and even ship having totally different guidelines. We went from no cruise news in MONTHS, to changes literally every day.

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I sit here with head in hand - RC/NCL/Carnival relocate some ships to northeast ports (Boston, NY, Baltimore, Bayonne) and start vaccinated sailings only. Lets get cruising started now. 

Having non and vaccinated pax on the same ship is asking for trouble - once a non-vaccinated passenger has a few drinks (or not) there will be trouble if they decide they do not want to follow the protocols. 

Sorry Celebrity (and other lines), no cruising for me on your ships if you are not requiring pax/crew to be vaccinated. It is still to early in the game to cruise without vaccination protection. 

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1 hour ago, AlmondFarmer said:

Quantum has been sailing successfully for 7 months without vaccination requirement. 

To be fair, Quatum sailings are available to residents only in a country that had an aggressive lockdown and a total of confirmed cases that is just over 1% of the total population.

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16 hours ago, CGTLH said:

Wonder if this was what Richard Fain had hinted at the other day in his video.

 

I'm going to assume Celebrity has a lot faith that 95 percent of their guests will be willing to show proof of vaccination. Problem that comes into play are the two ships that have requested a Conditional Sailing Certificate on the basis of having a 95 percent passenger vaccination rate. Unless Celebrity plans on back tracking and going with simulated voyages. This snip below is from an exhibit with the FL vs CDC/HHS case

image.png.1126b0c1a3f1aeb0d271ce0cdbc740a0.png

 

Only question I ponder is on the off chance a ship using the 95 percent exemption for the CSC is unable to meet the requirements.

 

This has been one of my theories for a while. 

I had the same question....it appears if 95% of the boarding guests affirms vaccination status, Celebrity accepts that information as satisfying the 2B requirement.  For those that affirm vaccination status but do not provide proof - must go through additional testing and subject to  stricter on-board protocols during the voyage.   Seems to thread the needle, but does it really?

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4 hours ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

So agree with you about antibody and natural immunity.  I think it will come about soon.

Not an epidemiologist, but degree in molecular genetics and molecular immunology.

A study last month in the scientific journal NATURE showed people infected with the SARS virus, one very similar to this one, still show antibody productoion 17 years later.

That being said, antibody production does not mean complete immunity. Being vaccinated for COVID 19 might keep you immune longer than being infected. It's just too early to tell.

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