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Celebrity Cruises Will Resume Cruises From Florida in June


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I don't think Florida has a leg to stand on when it comes to banning so-called "Vaccine Passports".  In Zucht v. King (1922), the court ruled that schools could bar students who had not been vaccinated.  The court has also ruled that denying service to a customer is legal as long is it not because of a person's status in one of the following protected classes: race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.  The unvaccinated are not a protected class.  And federal law clearly has jurisdiction as the cruise lines are engaged in interstate commerce.  Health privacy laws don't apply because RCL is not your healthcare provider and it would be you who would be divulging your medical status.

Now a new ruling could change this, but the court has (at least historically) been hesitant to overturn previous precedents.

Clearly Celebrity either has an inside track they are working or are very confident in their legal standing.

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2 hours ago, danv3 said:

So one way to potentially get around this law is to say "XYZ screening protocol is required to cruise, but if you voluntarily provide proof of complete vaccination, you may skip XYZ screening protocol.  To be clear, no one is required to provide proof of vaccination."  

Downside there is it doesn't guarantee a fully-vaccinated (or even largely fully vaccinated) ship.  

If you are vaccinated why worry.  

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4 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

Desantis chimes in...

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/governor-desantis-responds-to-celebrity-cruises-vaccine-requirement-for-fl-cruises

 

DeSantis says the vaccine requirements put in place by the cruise line violate the spirit of the Governor’s Emergency Order 21-81, which prohibits vaccine passports and protects the fundamental rights of Floridians – including the right to medical privacy. The governor also says the policy would be a violation of Florida’s recently enacted law banning vaccine passports, SB 2006, effective July 1.

"Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service," DeSantis said.

So after sueing the CDC to allow cruising he is now going to say Celebrity cannot sail under these rules? What a mess!

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13 minutes ago, Vancity Cruiser said:

So after sueing the CDC to allow cruising he is now going to say Celebrity cannot sail under these rules? What a mess!

Yes and no. Two different issues 

the lawsuit had to do with CDC overreach

His vaccine passport law prohibits businesses in FL from having vaccine requirements 

I think DeSantis painted himself in a corner. At first he was a champion of cruising returning but his passport law is now a stumbling block

i am hopeful like others DeSantis and the cruise lines can come to compromise because I would hope DeSantis wouldn’t want to be the barrier that prevents cruising from FL. It would run contrary to his position on cruising returning to FL

It seems to be a little bit of a political game now between the CDC and DeSantis. The CDC now can rightfully claim that they are saying cruising can resume in FL with vaccinated crew and passengers but DeSantis is to blame. Again, politics ruin everything 

 

 

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2 hours ago, StayFrosty said:

I don't think Florida has a leg to stand on when it comes to banning so-called "Vaccine Passports".  In Zucht v. King (1922), the court ruled that schools could bar students who had not been vaccinated.  The court has also ruled that denying service to a customer is legal as long is it not because of a person's status in one of the following protected classes: race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.  The unvaccinated are not a protected class.  And federal law clearly has jurisdiction as the cruise lines are engaged in interstate commerce.  Health privacy laws don't apply because RCL is not your healthcare provider and it would be you who would be divulging your medical status.

Now a new ruling could change this, but the court has (at least historically) been hesitant to overturn previous precedents.

Clearly Celebrity either has an inside track they are working or are very confident in their legal standing.

Very well said!

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I'm surprised Desantis publicly stated Celebrity Cruises will be in violation of legislation he orchestrated that prohibits business operating in FL from requiring vaccination to enter and/or receive services from that business. He could have just remained silent. I hate it that there will be controversy and will be in the news. But the reality is that Federal Law trumps state law in this case as @StayFrostynotes.

Here's how this might go down: A compromise is reached and both sides demure not wanting to make the other look bad. No compromise is reached, Celebrity sails on 6/26 (not yet under the provision of the new law) and after (where it will be), FL fines Celebrity who then goes to court and slam dunks the FL law that pertains.  

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I don't believe in vaccine passports but I understand why the cruise industry would temporarily require them.

What I think is comical and hypocritical is DeSantis has been preaching since the start of the pandemic that he trusts Floridians and Florida business to do the right thing and do what is best for the business, its employees and customers, and government needs to advise but not punish business and individuals. 

DeSantis this past March overturned all the fines that were levied by local governments against individuals and businesses who broke COVID rules put in place by their local government.  But now the same DeSantis has signed a bill in direct contrast to everything he has been preaching since the start of the pandemic.  He is not trusting local Florida businesses to do what they feel is in the best interest of their business and he also will levy $5,000 dollar fines each time a business breaks the law. And he has said COVID restrictions would have devastated Florida's economy but now the very law he championed could be the very thing that slows or stops cruising from resuming in the state of Florida. 

I like DeSantis but sometimes I just want to ask him what the heck are you doing?  You are now playing the same political game you've accused everyone else of playing.

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I found today's Desantis statement interesting: (quoted from Matt's story on the Home Page):

Earlier today, the governor's office told WFTS, "The CDC has no legal authority to set any sort of requirements to cruise. Moreover, the CDC has acknowledged, on record, that the federal government chose not to make a legal requirement for vaccine passports. Now the CDC provides coercive guidance” in the absence of any federal law or congressional authorization, requiring cruise ships to violate state law.

The first line is a fundamental claim in FL's law suit against HHS/CDC. He gives up on this, HHS lawyers will be all over it. If I'm the judge in this case listening to oral arguments, the defendant is going to have a point. How can you argue the CDC has no legal authority to impose requirements on the cruise industry. For the record, I think he's wrong. There's an abundance of U.S.C. that under specific circumstances (up to the water's edge), the CDC, for the most part, can do what it is requiring cruise lines to do in the CSO. A federal declaration of a PHE appears to be key in that authority. Bring that to an end and the CDC's CSO is dead in the water.

This is really the proverbial shit-sandwich for Desantis. I don't fell bad for him at all. IMO, it was completely avoidable. All he had to do was exempt the cruise industry from compliance  with state law offering that internationally registered companies can file for an exception and we'll look at it on case by case basis considering the benefits to the state. Nonetheless, I don't think his legislation will survive a court challenge, he knows it and all this is no more than pandering to his conservative constituency.  

 

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11 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I'm sure both sides are busy trying to find wording that makes both sides look good when cruise lines sail from Florida with vaccine requirements.

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/27/floridas-vaccine-passport-law-holding-royal-caribbeans-new-health-protocols-cruises?fbclid=IwAR1qVwWJpVoBnM4F_kWVkKTmRGVBxcF5baXyvH3bhS386BFtQVyEX3GN564

 

"She went on to say that cruise executives from Royal Caribbean Group, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings, and Carnival are working with Governor DeSantis, "we're ironing out a statement that will articulate how cruising will be different than in the state."

 

 

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16 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

Yeah, it’s terrible to be around people with dumb theories about Covid like people who believe wearing a cloth mask protects them from an aerosolized virus or people who think children should have been kept out of schools. People who wear masks outside. People who really believe Covid was first transmitted from an animal to humans. People that believe a higher rate of people are hospitalized from Covid than actually are. 
 

The point being is there is wild theories on both sides. Just because people chose not to get vaccinated don’t mean they are anti- vaxxers . Maybe they recovered from Covid, have natural immunity, etc. 

and guess what? On your November cruise, there will be unvaccinated people on that ship… oh, the horror!!!! Whenever you cruise beyond November it will be the same thing. I would suggest you cancel any cruises so you can be consistent with your beliefs 
 


 

 

I am still cruising because I am vaccinated but I would prefer to be around those who are also vaccinated, at least majority. You do realize that the media is just aching for some outbreak or something bad to happen on a ship that had unvaccinated people, and people will be like "told you to do vaccinated only"... no one knows how this will play out. People who choose to not vaccinate, that is up to them, but cruise lines have to assume the risk of bringing these types of people onboard. Why else are they vaccinating all their crew and want most of their passengers vaccinated? They are only doing these test cruises because kids can't get the vaccine. If there was a vaccine for kids under 12 right now, I can almost guarantee that it would be only vaccinated cruises. They should do vaccinated cruises and unvaccinated cruises, separately, and see what happens. Not to mention, being on a ship with unvaccinated passengers may increase the likelihood of more restrictions such as masks and all that. Fully vaccinated cruises as it stands now, no masks are required and barely any restrictions. Cruises sailing around the world that are unvaccinated, masks required with a bunch of restrictions. Pick which side you want to cruise on.

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I think Celebrity is acting in bad faith to sell a service that they know they  may not be available to deliver. Though I think that a compromise will be made in the end, there is also a possibility that this sailing will need to be cancelled because it’s in clear violation. I think that they should have worked out all details of an arrangement with FL government before selling this cruise to consumers. 
 

conversely, I think DeSantis is operating in bad faith as well by not allowing business set their own terms of service. His stance runs contrary to his championing of cruises restarting. Going on a cruise and being required to show proof of vaccination is not like being denied basic goods & services because you are unvaccinated. I understand his desire not to create two classes of people in FL. The vaccinated and unvaccinated which can lead to discrimination by businesses. BUT, as many have mentioned, he could have made exceptions for certain types of business within FL. It’s one thing to be denied entry into grocery store because you are unvaccinated but quite another matter to not be able to take a cruise because you are not vaccinated. It’s a distinction that shouldn’t be difficult for DeSantis to see. Why would he politically be the sole reason for port workers to remain unemployed and cruise related tourism stopping in his state 

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16 hours ago, cruisinghawg said:

If you are vaccinated why worry.  

^^^^THIS^^^^^
If you are fully vaccinated on a cruise, why would you worry about the people around you and if they have or have not vaccinated? 

I totally understand the optics of how the media is going to spin it as soon as one person tests positive on a cruise. I am just wondering how it will look if they report an outbreak on a fully vaccinated cruise.... vs. an outbreak on a mixed cruise with both vax and unvaxxed. I know either way the media will spin it to make it sound bad... but I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise. 

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12 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

I think Celebrity is acting in bad faith to sell a service that they know they  may not be available to deliver.

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

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11 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

Love your take on things and when you said the following;

My takeaway is: keep government out my business.

You are spot on. My takeaway is this is exactly what our governor is doing. I know some here do not like our governor but he has done the right thing as far as the state is concerned. BUT this has now crossed into the unintended category. Also there is the pesky little word in all of this and it is "PASSPORT". Currently there is no such thing. 

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15 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

Yes and no. I think Cruise lines selling July and August cruises from US ports right now are acting in bad faith because of so much uncertainty there is about the feasibility of cruising in July and August. Test sailings, Florida law and the general timeline all point to increasing unlikelihood of widespread July cruises and possibly August cruises. 

I fully agree. Keep government limited in scope. Let businesses set their own terms of service and let the customers decide their fate 

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17 hours ago, StayFrosty said:

I don't think Florida has a leg to stand on when it comes to banning so-called "Vaccine Passports".  In Zucht v. King (1922), the court ruled that schools could bar students who had not been vaccinated.  The court has also ruled that denying service to a customer is legal as long is it not because of a person's status in one of the following protected classes: race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.  The unvaccinated are not a protected class.  And federal law clearly has jurisdiction as the cruise lines are engaged in interstate commerce.  Health privacy laws don't apply because RCL is not your healthcare provider and it would be you who would be divulging your medical status.

Now a new ruling could change this, but the court has (at least historically) been hesitant to overturn previous precedents.

Clearly Celebrity either has an inside track they are working or are very confident in their legal standing.

Someone will need a test case to be brought before the courts to get a ruling on Florida's state law.  Could be that is exactly what Celebrity is doing.  I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

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16 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

Someone will need a test case to be brought before the courts to get a ruling on Florida's state law.  Could be that is exactly what Celebrity is doing.  I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

Depends on which court. State it probably would be upheld as this "law" as some have stated is actually and amendment to the emergency act of the state of Florida. 

If it goes to federal court then all bets are off.

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I can see this sort of compromise that distinguishes cruising from basic goods and services in Florida

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/27/floridas-vaccine-passport-law-holding-royal-caribbeans-new-health-protocols-cruises

Ms. Ritzenthaler praised Governor Ron DeSantis' efforts to help get cruise ships going on the federal level, and even thought the law makes sense for local businesses, "our governor was the one that started really pushing the CDC and talking to the White House."

"When he came out with the policy that says that he will not require in the state of Florida people to show proof of vaccinations, he was talking about restaurants, bars, hotels, Disney, places that weren't cruise ships because at the time, cruise ships weren't open yet."

She went on to say that cruise executives from Royal Caribbean Group, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings, and Carnival are working with Governor DeSantis, "we're ironing out a statement that will articulate how cruising will be different than in the state."

 

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1 hour ago, vanelli56 said:

I totally understand the optics of how the media is going to spin it as soon as one person tests positive on a cruise. I am just wondering how it will look if they report an outbreak on a fully vaccinated cruise.... vs. an outbreak on a mixed cruise with both vax and unvaxxed. I know either way the media will spin it to make it sound bad... but I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise.

You're giving people too much credit. The media reports "Covid on a cruise ship AGAIN" and that's the narrative. Most people do not even care about details. They just hear the headline, and then the "told you so" start flying.

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1 hour ago, vanelli56 said:

I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise. 

It's going to happen. I'm not sure of a full blown outbreak, but at least somebody on a cruise contracting Covid. It's already happened on land. What about the NY Yankees a couple of weeks ago? Like 6-8 players who had been fully vaccinated came down with it. Did the general public and news media "freak out" and demand that all baseball games be suspended? Of course they didn't.  How will the general public react and what will the cruise industry do is the next question. I hope they have a plan in place because the day is coming. 

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1 hour ago, CruiseGus said:

I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

Correct, for a court to rule on an issue, someone has to sue.  To sue you need to have standing. To have standing you need to have been ‘harmed’ by said law.  There are plenty of historic examples of people purposely putting themselves in violation of a law in order to challenge it in court.  This could be one of those times.

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