Good news if you have been dreaming of west coast cruises

[twangster]

7 minutes ago, cameron7763 said:

Why exactly can't the Navigator use the Panama Canal?

It's been suggested she is too tall to safely pass under the Bridge of the Americas.  Newer ships have retractable stacks to deal with height restrictions and increase their margin of safety in similar situations.  

[RoyalLaker]

On 3/8/2021 at 4:41 AM, smokeybandit said:

November and December both show a 7-night cruises based on that port schedule

Good catch, I just looked at the first couple of sailing. Mon and Fri departures reminded me of the Monarch of the seas 3/4 night sailing out of LA.

18 hours ago, cameron7763 said:

Why exactly can't the Navigator use the Panama Canal?

Voyager class air draft is reported around 210ft, which comes from a Florida port study. Bridge of America clearance is reported around 201ft. 

[FionaMG]

Royal's press release here: https://www.royalcaribbeanpresscenter.com/press-release/1506/stealing-the-spotlight-royal-caribbean-reveals-new-west-coast-adventures-from-los-angeles/

[twangster]

https://www.royalcaribbeanpresscenter.com/press-release/1506/stealing-the-spotlight-royal-caribbean-reveals-new-west-coast-adventures-from-los-angeles/

STEALING THE SPOTLIGHT, ROYAL CARIBBEAN REVEALS NEW WEST COAST ADVENTURES FROM LOS ANGELES

MIAMI, March 17, 2021 – After a decade-long hiatus, Royal Caribbean International will once again call Hollywood home starting in June 2022, casting Navigator of the Seas as a “series regular” that will sail from Los Angeles. The amplified ship will broaden the cruise line’s West Coast offerings, sailing 3-, 4- and 5-night itineraries to Catalina Island, California and Ensenada and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico – plus, select winter holiday 7-night sailings will feature overnights in the popular resort city. Royal Caribbean’s new year-round adventures from LA will open for sale the week of March 29, 2021.

[Vancity Cruiser]

I am excited about this move because I’ve been wanting to try Navigator since her amplification but it didn’t make sense to fly cross continent for a 3 or 4 night cruise. Will definitely be booking on her now!

[JasonOasis]

I have been waiting for Royal to return to Los Angeles for years.... I'm excited about this I've already told my husband once reservations open we are booking at B2B out of Los Angeles.  Hopefully the schedule works out where I can combine a 4 night and 5 night cruise but if it doesn't I'll just have to settle for a 3 night followed by a 4 night cruise.  Then fly home for a few days, leave again on another cruise on an Oasis Class ship out of Florida.  Next year is going to be a good year we are already booked on Odyssey in May out of Rome (depending on what happens with Wonder we may very well switch my fingers are crossed they don't just sail her straight to China). That cruise  would be followed up with a Navigator B2B, at the end of October, followed by a yet to be selected Oasis Class cruise in November, followed by our first cold weather cruise in January 2023 on Anthem. 

[mattymay]

Great news, always have to fly back through Los Angeles to get home so will definitely be adding a Navigator sailing to our next trip. 

[Ray]

Only cruise i can find from LA

 

 

[twangster]

17 minutes ago, Ray said:

Only cruise i can find from LA

They are being released at the end of March.

"The week of March 29th", so maybe April 1st.  April Fools!

[cruisellama]

Thought the west coast announcement was underwhelming.    Another one of those "sometime in the future" things like the rest of the schedules.

[twangster]

I kind of feel like she intended to announce something else but she got the hook on that idea so they threw her this LA thing so she wouldn't be left tap dancing with no music playing.

[twangster]

Looking at Navigator going through the Panama Canal again.  It might be possible with some modifications.

The Bliss is the largest cruise ship to have used the new expanded locks of the Panama Canal.  We know her transits through the canal are timed for a low tide passage under the Bridge of the Americas.  All I could find is a stated air draft of 60m for the Bliss in reference to her clearing the Lions Gate bridge to reach the port in Vancouver.  

The Panama Canal has a published height limit of ~58m for normal transits but there is reference to special clearances being provided for up to 62.5m.  These are specially approved because it has to be carefully coordinated with tides and it means arranging other ship transits around the specially approved ship.  That disrupts the normal flow of other ships so it's not a rubber stamp approval.  Normally ships are maneuvered to space them out based on timing relative to the previous ship, not absolute time of day.

62.5m = 205'

In a promotional video the Captain of the Bliss states that they clear the Bridge of the Americas "with a few meters to spare".  This is consistent with her claimed 60m height versus the Bridge clearance at low tide. 

During a king tide the tidal change is ~4.5m.  If the normal height limit is 58m this additional 4.5m yields 62.5m which is the limit of the special approval process.  The Bliss clearing with "a few meters to spare" seems to fit the dynamics in play.

Freedom and Voyager class have an air draft of 210' according to a Florida port study.  

210' = 64m

So it seems Navigator would need to lose around 1.5m at a minimum but probably a little more to have any sort of safety buffer.

Looking at her stacks there is what appears to be decorative trim around them.

 Is that combined with modifying her stacks to retract enough?

It's hard to judge but there appears to be at least 10' of room to be gained if such modifications can be made.

It would still require a transit at a new or full moon and special approvals by the Panama Canal.

Conclusion

Without modification Navigator does not appear to fit through the Panama Canal if the Florida port study is to be believed.

If they can modify the stacks or funnels of the ship it may be possible to gain enough clearance to fit through the Panama Canal.  They would need to apply for special approval and the transit would need to occur based on tide tables.

[KristiZ]

19 minutes ago, twangster said:

Looking at Navigator going through the Panama Canal again.

Wait... so you're saying it's more likely she'll have some rare, fantastic repo route to get her to her new home port in LA?? 

[twangster]

6 minutes ago, KristiZ said:

Wait... so you're saying it's more likely she'll have some rare, fantastic repo route to get her to her new home port in LA?? 

Her last established cruise is in April 2022.  Her first LAX cruise is in June 2022. 

That leaves a fair amount of time unaccounted for.

That could be time to modify the ship and then go through the canal or it could be a repo around South America. 

A lot of us are eagerly waiting to see what they do. 

[FionaMG]

24 minutes ago, twangster said:

It would still require a transit at a new or full moon and special approvals by the Panama Canal.

So do we know what dates those will be on in April/May/June 2022? Or is it too early to know that yet?

[twangster]

5 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

So do we know what dates those will be on in April/May/June 2022? Or is it too early to know that yet?

So many unknowns.  We know what dates will see a new or full moon but other than that it's all speculation.

[FionaMG]

7 minutes ago, twangster said:

We know what dates will see a new or full moon but other than that it's all speculation.

Yes, that's what I meant. Certainly it's all speculation but knowing those dates could narrow down possible sailing dates. 

Can you tell I have my mouse feverishly hovering over the as yet non-existent "Book Now" button? 

[GlowTheWeird]

While everything is speculation and changing daily. Catalina has the Navigators first stop on their cruise port schedule listed as April 20, 2022. Could very well be outdated information at this point tho. 

[twangster]

There is another reason to motivate Royal to find a way to get Navigation through the canal even if there is some significant cost to modify her.

Should they ever wish to send her down under from the west coast that typically starts with a Vancouver to Hawaii cruise followed by Hawaii to Australia.  

If they don't find a way to modify her to clear the Bridge of the Americas that also suggests she wouldn't fit under the Lions Gate bridge to get into Vancouver.  That complicates the traditional start of the voyage to reach Australia. 

Embarking guests in Victoria is possible in theory but being on an island that requires a ferry ride and Victoria doesn't really have facilities for embarking thousands to start a cruise.

Embarking guests in Mexico is equally challenging and has other complications.

They can't sail from LAX since that violates the PVSA unless they go VIA South America which adds a lot of time and distance to the sailing.

By modifying the ship to fit under the Bridge of the Americas it opens the door to reach Vancouver as well, at least in theory, which opens the door to Australia.  

[teddy]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

That could be time to modify the ship and then go through the canal or it could be a repo around South America. 

I've always wanted to sail around Cape Horn.  #RetirementGoals

[twangster]

13 minutes ago, teddy said:

I've always wanted to sail around Cape Horn.  #RetirementGoals

At 13 knots it would take around 40 days without stops. 

With the double points promo:

That's 80 Crown and Anchor points in a regular double cabin, or

That's 160 Crown and Anchor points in a suite cabin, or

That's 160 Crown and Anchor points solo in a regular cabin, or

That's 240 Crown and Anchor points solo in a suite cabin.

Since you have to be at least gold to receive double points, you could be Diamond after your second sailing, or nearly Diamond Plus after your second sailing, or Diamond Plus and 1/3 of the way to Pinnacle after your second sailing depending what cabin you picked and who you went with.

[AlmondFarmer]

4 hours ago, twangster said:

There is another reason to motivate Royal to find a way to get Navigation through the canal even if there is some significant cost to modify her.

Four young deck hands from the Philippines with sawsall’s wouldn’t be a significant cost. Stacks appear stainless, a plasma torch would also do the job. If they boarded me in Miami I could have stacks trimmed back before Colon. 

[Zambia-Zaire]

5 hours ago, twangster said:

Her last established cruise is in April 2022.  Her first LAX cruise is in June 2022. 

That leaves a fair amount of time unaccounted for.

That could be time to modify the ship and then go through the canal or it could be a repo around South America. 

A lot of us are eagerly waiting to see what they do. 

When you say "modify" are you suggesting possible retrofitting with retractable stacks?

[AlmondFarmer]

Most all heat from exhaust is exchanged with water low in ship. To my understanding the only purpose of stacks beyond superstructure is to release any soot from less than pure diesel fuel at a higher elevation, reducing the amount which accumulates at the rear of ship. 
There may also be some aesthetic ratio with overall design of ship. Trimming back a few meters would not dramatically alter appearance.
Retractable stacks, if motorized, would be expensive and require future maintenance. These would likely only be added if multiple retractions are expected and current stack height is necessary for engineering or aesthetic reasons.

[twangster]

On 3/18/2021 at 8:55 PM, AlmondFarmer said:

Most all heat from exhaust is exchanged with water low in ship. To my understanding the only purpose of stacks beyond superstructure is to release any soot from less than pure diesel fuel at a higher elevation, reducing the amount which accumulates at the rear of ship. 
There may also be some aesthetic ratio with overall design of ship. Trimming back a few meters would not dramatically alter appearance.
Retractable stacks, if motorized, would be expensive and require future maintenance. These would likely only be added if multiple retractions are expected and current stack height is necessary for engineering or aesthetic reasons.

I think that's the goal... to get exhaust gases from degrading air quality on the upper decks aft of the funnels.   I don't think heat is part of the equation, it's about exhaust fumes.   It's also a convenient location to install scrubbers that minimize pollutants from leaving the ship in the first place.  

Oasis had the factory motorized stack option defeated only to go back later and add the feature back.  Lesson learned.  Having that available maximizes deployment options.

If they ever want to think about sending Navigator to Hawaii and from there down under that usually starts with a visit to Vancouver.  Without lowering the stacks that's not possible (Lions Gate Bridge).  So by investing in the option now, they gain Navigator through the canal (now that the new locks are open) and they gain Vancouver as a gateway to Hawaii and Australia in both directions. 

Seems like a potential win for future deployment flexibility.   

[twangster]

FWIW here is Ovation showing off her retractable stacks.

Lowered to get under the Lions Gate bridge:

Raised again at sea:

I don't think they would be spending money to have motorized stacks on this class if it didn't give them deployment flexibility and good return on that investment.

[twangster]

On 3/18/2021 at 8:46 PM, Zambia-Zaire said:

When you say "modify" are you suggesting possible retrofitting with retractable stacks?

I think that would be the wisest path forward.  It's an investment in the future, opening up future options.  

Perhaps there is a way to avoid the fully motorized version available on Quantum class.  Make them retractable using winches and pulleys rather than a push button somewhere.

Either way it opens the door for new destinations thought impossible when she was built.

[JasonOasis]

@twangsterCan a Quantum Class ship fit under the Bridge of the Americas?

 

I know I just joined this site about 2 months ago but I have to admit when Royal first announced Odyssey of the Seas I was hoping, praying this ship would do Panama Canal sailings just like NCL's Bliss.  In addition to that I was hoping Royal would send Odyssey during the winter months (December - March) down to South American to challenge NCL by offering 7-10 day roundtrip cruises out of Buenos Aries, or 14 day one way cruises between Buenos Aries and Santiago (Santos) Chile and vise versa Chile back to Argentina.  I know Celebrity offers limited sailing during the winter from Brazil to Antartica, but I was really hoping Royal would take on NCL in South America with Odyssey of the Seas.  That ship has so much potential I'm hoping within 2 or 3 years Royal will expand its reach during the winter months by redeploying it down to South America instead of doing the Southern Caribbean.

I've sailed on NCL multiple times and had a great time but I prefer Royal to NCL any day of the week.   

[twangster]

18 minutes ago, JasonOasis said:

@twangsterCan a Quantum Class ship fit under the Bridge of the Americas?

I've sailed on NCL multiple times and had a great time but I prefer Royal to NCL any day of the week.   

I don't have a definitive answer.

I can only speculate the answer is a qualified yes.

Watching Ovation sail under the Lions Gate Bridge and subsequently being on the ship as it sailed under twice since there appeared to be a pretty healthy safety buffer with each passing.

On paper the Bridge of the Americas and the Lions Gate Bridge may both seem passable at low tide.  Here is where the gray areas begin to cloud the answer.

Ships don't seek to come close to hitting anything.  They always include ample safety margins.  Getting it wrong would have unfathomable implications.

So it's not a matter of simply looking at wikipedia dimensions to qualify the answer.

Both Bliss and Ovation have cleared the Lions Gate Bridge numerous times now.  They make it look easy but it's not that simple.  They pass not expressly at exact low tide but at slack tide when currents are minimal.  They can't afford to have a current pull the ship off center where bridge clearances are lower.

Bliss may have different handling characteristics or maybe NCL uses different criteria to quantify risk assessments. 

Those are the types of things we will never know.

It may be technically possible for Quantum class to use the Panama Canal but it might not be prudent to attempt it.  The dimensions might support it but the risk assessment might not.  I don't know.

[AlmondFarmer]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

 I don't think heat is part of the equation, it's about exhaust fumes.

My inclusion of heat is that the engineering components (heat exchangers, using exhaust heat to help purify water and other tasks) are located lower in the ship, thus the top few meters of the exhaust system are not part of this process.  The top sections main purpose is to release particulates at a higher elevation, reducing buildup on ship.

[smokeybandit]

Lion's Gate Bridge and Bridge of the Americas have nearly identical high tide clearances. Not sure on low tide though.

[twangster]

27 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Lion's Gate Bridge and Bridge of the Americas have nearly identical high tide clearances. Not sure on low tide though.

Tides in Balboa on the Pacific side vary around 15' at full or new moon.

https://www.pancanal.com/eng/op/tide-tables/2021-Balboa.pdf

Tides for Point Atkinson near the LG bridge only seem to vary by 6-7' max.

https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Point-Atkinson-British-Columbia-2/tides/latest

When I was watching Ovation sail under the LG bridge there were visible eddies or small swirling whirlpool like currents in the water under the bridge 30 minutes before Ovation arrived.  By the time she was there the water was almost still like a lake.  

I've never sat around the BoTA to watch the water but with such a large tidal swing there has to be some tidal currents there.  Timing is everything.

It's still not clear to me though if the bridge keepers add their own safety buffers to numbers published.  If we were to drop a measuring tape at high tide would the published figures match our measured distance?  Or have they padded the numbers so a daring captain in a container ship won't try to make it under?

[AlmondFarmer]

Sounds like this warrants a trip to both bridges to to measure using two methods from bridges apex. Once with a weighted measure tape and once with a stopwatch employing the 9.8m/s/s equation. I have some old bowling balls and feathers to drop. This will require a 14 day stay at each location to catch full tidal variants. (perigee and apogee ignored while perihelion and aphelion deemed inconsequential)

[twangster]

37 minutes ago, AlmondFarmer said:

Sounds like this warrants a trip to both bridges to to measure using two methods from bridges apex. Once with a weighted measure tape and once with a stopwatch employing the 9.8m/s/s equation. I have some old bowling balls and feathers to drop. This will require a 14 day stay at each location to catch full tidal variants. (perigee and apogee ignored while perihelion and aphelion deemed inconsequential)

I think we just send Navigator through.  Block traffic and let her rip.  If the bridge falls, oh well.  

[RoyalLaker]

8 hours ago, twangster said:

I think we just send Navigator through.  Block traffic and let her rip.  If the bridge falls, oh well.  

Q class was built with the expansion of the canal in mind. Voyager class was built with never leaving the Caribbean. 

[twangster]

6 hours ago, RoyalLaker said:

Q class was built with the expansion of the canal in mind. Voyager class was built with never leaving the Caribbean. 

Yep.

Radiance class and Voyager class were being designed and built essentially at the same time.  Radiance class was the solution for globe trotting being designed to the original Panamax standard and fitted with gas turbines so they could be used in more regions including sensitive marine environments.  Like Vision class the solariums had a retractable roof so they could be used anywhere.  These two classes were designed to fit through the Panama Canal as it was known at the time.

Voyager class as you have stated, at the time was thought would never leave the Caribbean.  That's why they have open solariums.  "They'll only be used in the Caribbean".   They knew building these ships they wouldn't fit through the Panama Canal so they threw those constraints out the window and built the largest cruise ships in the world (at the time).  

They didn't know years later the Panama Canal would start talking about expanding the locks to permit larger ships.  In 2006 the idea of expanding the locks was first offered as an idea, officially becoming a project in 2007.    By that point all Voyager class ships has been carrying guests around the Caribbean for years.

[RoyalLaker]

Navigator have a dry dock 2/2022? no sailings listed.

[twangster]

9 minutes ago, RoyalLaker said:

Navigator have a dry dock 2/2022? no sailings listed.

That's is the assumption.

[Matt]

40 minutes ago, twangster said:

That's is the assumption.

Doesn't add up.  If my math is right, Navigator got her refurb in 2019 when she was amplified. 

2019 + 5 = 2024. So why dry dock?

[twangster]

7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Doesn't add up.  If my math is right, Navigator got her refurb in 2019 when she was amplified. 

2019 + 5 = 2024. So why dry dock?

Two things come to mind as possibilities.

1. She needs shore power capability and maybe she needs a haircut.
2. At age 20 she loses the exemption to dry dock every 5 years.  Once 20 years old it's twice every five years.  She launched in 2002 so 2022 is 20 years.