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There actually is an update to the CSO


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2 hours ago, twangster said:
  • You really shouldn't think about trying to sail before Nov. 1st but if you are that stupid here is the first mountain you'll need to move to do so.  We'll let you know about the next mountain you'll need to move in the next update once you are finished moving the first mountain, or you could just wait until Nov. 1st, wink, wink.   

This seems about right...until the CDC extends the CSO beyond November 1.  

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I'm glad you mentioned this, because this is the source of the problem with the CDC. The CDC is still looking at cruises through the prism of March 2020. That is like saying airplanes and ai

Ever flown through the LaGuardia airport?  Pretty much a prison.  Small confined spaces, low ceiling, hot, smelly, packed with zero chance of social distancing.  Marked safe by CDC standards.  

An additional comment on my post above ......... Most of us, including myself, have little understanding of the complexity of various US government regulations. I'm working from distant memory he

There's a lot of liability at stake for both sides in cruise lines putting together these unnecessary shore agreements. That's going to take a long time for the lawyers to do their things. Then you have to wait for the CDC to bless them to even start test cruises.

I don't see how cruising starts this summer at all.

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While the entire industry realizes that the CSO is outdated and no longer valid (with the rollout of vaccines and the info and proof that cruises can be conducted safely in many other parts of the world) the CDC is blissfully ignorant of this. They are sticking with their outdated protocols and not budging. 

I wonder if Miami mayor stands by her comment ‘I am impressed by the Director’s knowledge of the industry, and her empathy to the economic hardships that the loss of this business has caused’?

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So under the ‘purpose’ section of the technical instructions is a sentence that states ‘for the purpose of these instructions, CDC considers cruise ships to constitute a residential congregate setting’.

In the CDC’s updated COVID instructions yesterday they excluded non-healthcare congregate settings from the update. They describe non-healthcare congregate settings as prisons and detention Centers.

So the CDC in their infinite wisdom classify cruise ships the same as prisons and detention centers!

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Let's be clear. Here is how the CDC defines shared (also known as congregate) housing:

......shared housing includes a broad range of settings, such as apartments, condominiums, student or faculty housing, national and state park staff housing, transitional housing, and domestic violence and abuse shelters. Special considerations exist for the prevention of COVID-19 in shared housing situations .... 

I'd say a cruise ship at sea for an extended period of time where people congregate, sleep and eat constitutes a shared housing or congregate setting. Disney parks, airline travel, concerts and sporting events don't fall within CDC's definition of congregate settings. So, there's guidance for these places - a ton of it in normal times and 5 tons of it for the current pandemic times . It is very likely that all the CDC had to do was cut and paste some of verbiage that's been on the books for infection control in congregate settings that heretofore didn't include cruise ships. They do now. Then they added MORE.

Look, I get this. Would you pillory the CDC for infection control that applies to a hospital? Surgery suites? Isolation wards? I've seen this stuff. It is immensely complicated and vitally important to stop the spread of infections in a hospital setting. While it's true, cruise ships aren't hospitals and infection control onboard is going to be different than in a hospital but, given the chaos in March of 2020, I can see why the CDC is being overly cautious here. 

That does not mean I like it. Practicing medicine within a hospital system and following infection control rules can be a giant pain in the ass. But, man, the consequences of ignoring this sort of stuff can be deadly.

I personally think that what's being done with COVID related infection control aboard a ship is insufficiently bounded by adequate application of risk assessment tools.  That's another matter entirely and what I think matters not.

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I don't see hotel or resorts on that list. And that's what a cruise ship is.

All those other examples are high density, possibly low budget or cleanliness, living conditions among unrelated people.

There's a clear and obvious difference with a cruise ship, and it's embarrassing  the CDC goes out of its way to try to lump cruises in with those others.

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18 hours ago, Vancity Cruiser said:

So under the ‘purpose’ section of the technical instructions is a sentence that states ‘for the purpose of these instructions, CDC considers cruise ships to constitute a residential congregate setting’.

Can you share the link where they mention this? I'm totally missing it

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19 hours ago, JeffB said:

given the chaos in March of 2020, I can see why the CDC is being overly cautious here. 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because this is the source of the problem with the CDC.

The CDC is still looking at cruises through the prism of March 2020.

That is like saying airplanes and airports are unsafe from terrorists because you only look at airline security pre-9/11.

No cruise ship is going to operate in 2021 like it did in March 2020. I'm not sure how many more times cruise lines can state their extensive and unparalleled new health protocols before the CDC stops using March 2020 as the baseline.

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19 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

There's a clear and obvious difference with a cruise ship, and it's embarrassing  the CDC goes out of its way to try to lump cruises in with those others.

????

The difference between a cruise ship and a restaurant is that when you go to a restaurant (or the other venues that are not in the CDC's definition of a congregate setting) its a time limited event of at most 6-8h in a park. You're not living there in the sense that it means sleeping over-night in those but you are on a cruise ship.

I hate defending the CDC but I think it is important among cruise fans here to understand that there is rationale behind what the CDC is doing (see my comparison of infection control procedures in a hospital to those on a cruise ship - they are a PITA but they have an important purpose. Most of us here, including me think that the technicals released on Friday are not bounded by appropriate risk/benefit analysis. Matt is right. The CDC is seeing the cruise industry through the lens of March 2020. Things have changed. The CDC hasn't. 

 

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On 4/4/2021 at 12:35 PM, JeffB said:

Most of us here, including me think that the technicals released on Friday are not bounded by appropriate risk/benefit analysis.

....... and CLIA agrees. I was glad to see that CLIA rather nicely said to the CDC screw the idiodic technicals you released on Friday.

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On 4/4/2021 at 12:35 PM, JeffB said:

the technicals released on Friday are not bounded by appropriate risk/benefit analysis

To your point, I loved this quote by CLIA

"The new requirements are unduly burdensome, largely unworkable, and seem to reflect a zero-risk objective rather than the mitigation approach to COVID that is the basis for every other US sector of our society."

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1 hour ago, Atlantix2000 said:

Today the CDC said that all the extra surface sanitizing precautions (which some call "hygiene theater") are not necessary since most transmission is through the air.  Yet somehow don't most of their requirements for the cruise line industry fall into that category?

https://news.yahoo.com/end-the-hygiene-theater-cdc-says-173440864.html

 

The CDC has been saying this for almost a year. This data just further quantifies how rare it is.

 

But yes, many of the CDC's CSO requirements are to reduce surface transmission

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Just like the CDC was saying 6 feet was the magical social distance but then the CDC changed it to 3 feet for school reopening guidance 

I hope they remember the 3 feet rule with cruises as well in outdoor spaces and drop mask wearing outdoors because the data now shows us that outdoor transmission is extremely rare

follow the data 

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2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

The CDC has been saying this (surface transmission C-19 is negligible) for almost a year. This data just further quantifies how rare it is.

 

In March of 2020 we had the CDC's mask debacle. Following this, as we now know, principals within then president Trump's COVID advisory committee argued amongst each other to the point of failing to recommend reasonable COVID related public health policy, confusion about vaccines, now we have the CDC proclaiming that SARS2 is not transmitted via surfaces. Lay people, like me, who read the medical literature have known this for at least 3 months, maybe longer. Stunning.  

And yet, we still have this agency being the primary entity wrongly preventing free commerce within the cruise industry, such actions being based on completely outdated and erroneous assumptions about infection control aboard cruise ships and without regard for the impact of vaccines on the pandemic in general and upon SARS2 transmission among the vaccinated, specifically.

I have looked at the legality, in a non-lawyer way, of the NSO and the CSO and posted here that under the declaration of a PHE, what the Department of Homeland Security is tasked with doing (the enforcement arm behind the NSO) was lawful.

Today, I looked at 14A of the US Constitution that deals with the limitations of government restrictions to free commerce and trade. It is possible that the cruise industry could seek an injunction to prevent the enforcement of the NSO, in the evolving pandemic circumstances, as an unlawful barrier to free trade. As the impact of vaccines take hold globally and especially in the US, and in conjunction with the proven, entirely reasonable and doable, steps that the cruise industry has taken to mitigate the risk that cruise ship operations could be a substantial risk for the spread of C-19, the CDC's stand on this becomes more irrelevant and by extension the NSO irrelevant as well and possibly unlawful, legal action could have legs.

 

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Unfortunately science has left the building a long time ago and replaced by politics when it comes to the restart of cruising. "Never let a crisis go to waste" is the motto of many in government these days on both sides of the aisle. As long as there is a health crisis, the more legislation and spending that can be passed. CDC is just waiting on the green light from the White House I believe as we have seen at least twice now the CDC Director make proclamations regarding Covid that later have to be walked back by the administration. 

I think the more framing the cruise industry stoppage is causing economic harm to Port Cities will play better in court of public opinion rather than the general public just perceiving that entitled people are mad they cant go on a cruise. They fail to see how many people have lost jobs and are struggling because of the shutdown. 

 

 

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