JeffB

@cruisellama thanks for reading my tome. I love to write about many things here, especially cruising and cruise reviews.

I posted somewhere that I had a 7n Equinox booking out of PEV on August 8th. I just booked the preceding cruise on Equinox to make a 14d B2B, W. then E's Caribbean. I have some worries that the CDC may flaunt it's appropriated and unlawful behavior (endorsed by the Appellate Court granting a stay of the Merryday slammer) and ordering cruising from US ports to stop. You  know, rising case numbers, danger of congregate settings and all that BS. That may be an unwarranted fear but I'm going to "make hay while the sun shines."

I was uncertain about what agencies are making COVID related PH policy in PR. It's not the CDC. PR has it's own PH Department and PH officials that are independent from the CDC. Not that that makes any difference but CDC policies apparently don't play in PR.

Having said that, PR is an island. It is ideally suited to pursue a zero COVID or elimination approach by strictly limiting who comes into the country. I think that is what is at play here. Many don't think that congregate settings, what cruise ships are generally classified as when it comes to infectious disease, are a threat for disease spread. But, PH official trained in these matters think they are. 

I just looked over the JHU COVID data for PR. When vaccines started to become more available in April, new case numbers plummeted. Now, like most places on the globe, they are rising again. I've argued case numbers are not a good indicator of what is probably the most important metric in assessing viral control - disease burden. That I think this doesn't mean there are a good number of trained epidemiologists, doctors and scientists that believe increased case numbers presage increased hospitalizations and deaths (disease burden). I understand this view, Data is not sufficnet yet to step back from it and that's what these guys rely on. I believe that position though does not take into account facts on the ground. I also believe awareness of the effectiveness of vaccines - observed facts on the ground that often aren't considered scientifically good data- is beginning to shift the pros views more toward accommodative strategies and less toward zero COVID or elimination strategies.

I can't say what this means regarding the date certain PR will reopen to cruise ships but PR's economy depends on tourism. I'm sure both government and PH officials are getting pressure to ease travel and leisure restrictions. Despite this, I just did a search of all cruise lines that are scheduled to depart SJ PR going forward 3 months from today and only one line, RCL, shows up and that sailing is Vision on 5 September. That tells me that is the earliest any cruise might originate from SJ PR. It's probably too late to shuttle a cruise ship inot service from there before September.

I know Celebrity usually bases a Millennium class ship out of SJ.  There are no Celebrity sailings form SJ through the end of March '22 - I didn't look any further. RCL predominates in that market through March with Silver Sea and NCL showing up there in November '21 and January '22 respectively.

Anyone booked on an RCL cruise starting with and then after September 5th is probably good to go ..... baring any changes and that happens a lot these days!

2 hours ago, MrMarc said:

Or Justice Thomas could issue an emergency order pending the Court accepting and hearing the case.

Interesting. The Supreme Court is not in session. I'm not familiar, you may be. Can the USSC take up a case, in this case one that Justice Thomas has jurisdiction over, so he would rule emergently and independently?

I'm not familiar enough with the legal precedents involving a matter like this but it seems to me this case is not high enough on the list of things that the SC would jump into for such an emergency order to be issued. I say that regardless of my previous posts that outline the enormity of this seemingly small time case.

I do think Judge Merryday's ruling correctly reflected his understanding that how he ruled was going to have far reaching implications. I actually thought his ruling was so succinct and so on point that he intentionally wrote 124 pages to make it nearly appeal proof.

So, maybe, these guys at this level do understand and could move the case forward rapidly delivering a win for the concept of less government and more oversight of what Judge Merryday called the egregious presumption of authority by the executive branch of government to make what was essentially law that the CDC did not have. 

Your thoughts?  

Wanted to provide a post on my recent experience sailing on Apex for an 8n Greek Isles itinerary that just concluded on Saturday. I think this sailing will be representative of those from other EU ports. Greece has been supportive of all cruise lines, especially US lines, of a restart. Therefore this cruise might have been a bit easier to get through than from other more restrictive EU ports, Amsterdam for example.

Travel: I booked with Celebrity air for this trip and for obvious reasons. At first glance the R/T routing from Miami that passed through Newark and JFK looked good. I'm not fond of either of these assigned carriers, United or American, but the pricing was good - $600pp R/T and that's about $150 pp less than standard fares that I find between the US and Europe (there are sale exceptions but you have to be quick and grab them - they are usually gone within hours)

I also booked same day travel. I rarely do that and I have never done it with cruises from European or Asian ports. But with Celebrity responsible for getting you there it seemed worth the risk. I doubt I'll do that again even though we made it if not nearly 7h late - an 8:50am arrival turned into a 3:40pm actual.  The East coast traffic control is always a mess and made worse by outcomes from the pandemic (lay-offs by the carriers, airport staff and ATC). We were delayed nearly 4h in Miami, most of it after boarding and/or on the taxiway and another 4h leaving Newark. Part of these delays were due to TS Elsa that was just underneath most of our flight routing and affecting the NY area weather. But most of it was due to ATC's inability to handle heavy traffic when arrivals are under instrument flight rules or IFR. When under visual flight rules or VFR more planes can be admitted to the traffic control pattern - these are very limited in number when it's IFR and more so, I am told, due to the pandemic staffing levels. Anyway it was pretty awful. We spent 7h of butt time not associated with actual flying time. I also think United made some questionable operations decisions. I won't go into that accept to say think twice about book United and any routing through JFK or Newark.

The arrival in Athens was unexpectedly smooth. It's a new and modern airport terminal. Luggage was there and waiting on the carousel when we got to baggage claim - directions all well marked in English and Greek. Immigration was a breeze but only if you had all your entry documents in hand. I recommend both phone records/pictures and printed hard copy. You won't have internet available in the immigration area so you can't count on getting back to download docs.

There were 300 some pax on the Boeing 777-200 but the lines moved especially fast and we were through immigration (no customs) into the main terminal area about 30 minutes after deplaning, about an hour after landing. Fortunately, as we booked transfers (I rarely do that either but did due to COVID), Celebrity staff were highly visible. We checked in with our host, waited about 10 minutes and were taken to a bus. I heard from guests that arrived in the morning that they waited a long time to get on a bus to Pireas. I think there was some confusion about how long the hosts should wait as the delays they were seeing in ours and other flights from the US were incremental at their end.

The bus trip from the Athens airport to the port of Pireas took about an hour in heavy traffic. There were only a few people on our bus and no-one was ahead of us in the check-in area (a tent but a nice one with OK AC). All the benefits of technology in the touchless check in incorporated in the Edge Class ships were used by Celebrity at Pireas. Again, have all your docs ready and in hand. You'll have to show them at multiple points as you move through check-in and you won't have internet to retrieve anything.

Celebrity requires a rapid antigen test prior to boarding even though you have to be vaxed to board. This was accomplished really smoothly by a company (Trust 1)that Celebrity has hired to do this. If you enrolled on-line per Celebrity's instructions received by email and used the Trust 1 downloaded app, you would have a QR code that was emailed and texted to you by Trust 1. No matter if you didn't they'll give you one there. You get a nasal swab, go to a waiting area and wait for your number to pop up on a big flat screen TV - took about 15 minutes. You then took your number to a Celebrity staff who then gave you an envelope with your test results in it - I think the Trust 1 app is still a bit shaky and issues are being worked on but overall this entire antigen testing thing went smoothly. The late boarding (around 4p - the ship didn't depart until 8p) wasn't ideal as we like getting aboard early and looking around. However, the Ocean View Cafe was still open - a nice accommodation for late arrivals - they usually end lunch service at 2:30p.

The ship: Absolutely beautiful. We've sailed on Edge in January last year and Apex took that and made it better with Apex. Beyond, the next Edge class ship, will build on Apex.

Cabin: We booked a "port hole" Veranda. There are not a lot of these but they are considerably less expensive than the "Infinity" Verandas. The balcony is small and is surrounded by steel that is open to the sea in the shape of a big port hole. These cabins are about 20 sq ft bigger inside than the Infinity cabins because you get that back from the small veranda. It was fine for us. I'd do it again. Cabin access is keyless and the lighting is controlled though one controller as you enter. It's pretty cool and techy. The bath is quite large and showers had big doors - bigger than Edge's and we had an inside cabin on Edge. It was fine too. 

Dining: WOW. This is one of the Edge Class ship's big upgrades. Dining venues also include the addition of Eden which is aft with widows facing the sea. Eden occupies two decks (5 and 6) and also contains one of the specialty restaurants, a big bar and performance area. There are 4 complementary main dining rooms that are stacked one on top of the other, port and starboard on two decks. These are right forward of Eden. I recommend anytime dining so you can sample all 4 if you like. Each has a different theme and a few dishes particular to each. Also be careful to reserve your table at the time you want at the place you want as soon as you are aboard. You can do this on the app or call 7000 on the cabin phone. If you select a fixed seating you'll start in one of the 4 restaurants assigned by the staff. You can move but you're at the end of the line among anytime diners who have reserved times and tables if you want to do that in another restaurant.

There are 6 specialty restaurants on Apex. They are pricey but, IMO, absolutely worth it. I recommend purchasing in advance a package of 4 if you are so inclined. You'll save some money. Again, book as soon as you can at the times you want and the venue you want. Lunch seatings are available and at a reduced cost with the same menu. I recommend Le Grand Bistro. If you don't want to pay the premium, the 4 complimentary restaurants are terrific especially with reduced guest loads. Service felt like specialty restaurant level. That will end as pax loads increase and they will by October. Sie note: Ship's crew have been onboard since early April and have not left the ship. Not one of them! 

Bars: Lots of them but Edge class ships are missing one of my favorites, the ice martini bar. They say they have one (not ice) and it's in the center of the ship within the Grand Foyer. It's too small and lacks the ambience of the Silhouette class ship's martini bars. There is also live entertainment during bar hours in the same area and it's too loud for my tastes.

Entertainment: Spectacular but not everyone likes this stuff. There were two production shows in the main theater all the way forward. The production dancers do several other shows in "The Club" - a more inmate theater arrangement and in the performance area of Eden. The unique thing is that if you grab good seating, you are just feet away from the show's performers. Pretty cool. The main theater production shows are Las Vegas spectacular. Two of the shows were debuts and being tested out to see how guests likd them. For me, these shows join the Fine Cuts steak house in my Apex top two.

Fitness: I'm a cyclist (I just spin these days). I was surprised the fitness center (forward on deck 14) was doing group spin classes. They did. I did 4 of them and I was the only one spinning in two. Still great calorie burns! The fitness area is otherwise big and well equipped with the standard equipment. There are 3 Peloton bikes. They're reserved for suite guests but I could have used one if suite guest didn't have them booked. They didn't. That will change. Apex debuts F24 - it's HIT training in a specially equipped studio. There was quite a bit of interest in these classes. I can't do the pounding/hi impact associated with them these days. They looked cool if you are in to that sort of exercise. Yoga classes, meditation (also Tai Chi)  and stretch classes too. The spa has the usual over-priced treatments but, hey, its a vacation cruise. Splurge! 

Debarkation: Organized as usual except you get an antigen test (for re-entry into the US for US citizens - non-residents need a PCR (Molecular) test and you'll get one at Celebrity's expense if your home country is other than the US too). You leave the ship via a gangway and walk about 600 yards to the Pireas port terminal where your baggage is picked up like it usually is - bags are arranged in lines based on your assigned departure number that you attach to your bag the night before port arrival. You never left Greece on this cruise so no customs or immigration required when returning to Pireas port.

It was Saturday and the return trip by bus took just over 35 minutes from the ship to the Athens airport. There were Celebrity staff at the airport as you got off the bus to direct you to your carrier's check in counter (nice touch). Check in went smoothly as long as you had all your documents and tickets organized and in hand. We traveled back to the US on American Airlines. Check in was well organized and quick. We arrived nearly 3h before departure so had lots of time to sit.

American flys a newer version of the B777 Dreamliner that was a lot nicer than United's; food and beverage service was better too - complimentary wines! We arrived on-time at JFK, picked up our bags and went through immigration and customs quickly. If you don't have Global entry, get it. That speeds up passing through US ports of entry like JFK quickly.

But after that speedy experience, what looked like a good choice with American turned sour. Again we were delayed at the gate for 4h. Supposedly because our aircraft arrived late from London. It did arrive late but I suspect there were operational factors, not weather or other reasonable reasons for the delay at play. Won't go down that rabbit hole but I know how this goes and I also know you'll never here the real reasons for any delays.

You may have heard about this but a Senate select committee has recently asked what the airlines did with the $54b in pay-check protection program (PPP) aid they got. Reportedly, instead of keeping employees on staff, the majors laid off 43,000 employees over the last 14 months and are only now calling them back. They are getting grilled for what looks like a money grab that didn't support air travel consumers interests. No surprise there.

Accordingly there are all kinds of personnel shortages from Pilots to ground crews and desk agents. This is is most likely causing these ridiculous delays. I think delays are happening all over but if you can avoid JFK and Newark (i.e. most of the East coast traffic), possibly Miami, you may be better off getting to European destinations. Get to Atlanta and you can usually fly Delta direct to most European airports. Athens was one of them and I wished I had flown from Fort Lauderdale (where I live) to Atlanta and then flown direct with Delta to Athens avoiding JFK and Newark completely.  It might have cost more but I'm never flying to Europe through Miami, JFK or Newark again!

Despite the unpleasant air travel, this was a great cruise X10. The Edge class ships are amazing. They do cater to a niche of travelers without kids who want to pay top dollar for suites - some of them ridiculously expensive, IMO. Apparently people are booking them. There are plenty of value cabins and I've been a Celebrity cruiser for decades and never felt like I was second class because I might have booked an inside cabin. The Retreat looks nice but I can do without the exclusivity nicely provided there so you don't have to be near the "riff-raff." Don't get me wrong. That's fine for many and you can get it delivered on a silver platter on a Celebrity ship - all of them.   

I'm booked on Equinox out of PEV on Sunday August 8th. Just checked in this morning and the earliest available check in time was 2pm. I thought it was because I checked in 3w prior not the usual 90d or as soon as it opens. I guess not. I agree with @LifesEz. I think the ships are taking their time making sure everything is completely sanitized. Sure, touch transmission of SARS2 is not considered as a primary means of transmission but, from what I've seen on the cruise I just took out of AThens Greecec on Apex, they are hyper cautious and attentive to infection control. I'm fine with that.

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

Responding to this question could get this thread locked, so I'll refrain

I'll relate the question on why Delta variants matter or don't matter to cruising. Here are the facts:

• The Delta Variant is more transmissible
• Rising case numbers globally and regionally are being attributed to growing percentages of Delta
• Around 90% of new COVID cases numbers are among the world's unvaccinated cohort.
• 99% of new COVID cases that result in deaths are among the world's unvaccinated cohort.
• Generally, deaths and hospitalizations from COVID (serious illness) have remained steady. There are regional exceptions and increased disease seriousness tracks inversely with vax rates - the lower the vax rates, the higher the prevalence of serious illness and deaths. 

OK, fine. How do I relate these indisputable facts to cruising?

My take is that the SARS2 pandemic is being successfully controlled and managed by a combination of immunity gained from previous exposure to COVID, from vaccinations and from responsible SARS2 mitigation measures that look at the cost of such measures versus the PH benefits derived therefrom. What else matters in this equation is the remarkable growth in the capacity of doctors to manage the disease of admitted COVID patients and promote recovery. That is a stunning and mostly unrecognized contribution to the effective management and control of the virus. But, no. The media insists on creating a false narrative of catastrophe.  

Because of this, I favor an accommodative approach to new case numbers (Great Britain and others) rather than an elimination through lockdown approach (Australia and NZ). I'll acknowledge both have their place depending on circumstances.

Nevertheless, all forms of media are trumpeting a rise in case numbers as signaling dire consequences, end of times and a resurgence of the pandemic. IOW, things are out of control. IMO, they are not. We are where we should be right now in nations that have secured vaccines. Where nations have not done that things aren't so good, and that needs to be and is being addressed.

Given the media narrative, the potential for the imposition of stricter mitigation measures by policy makers in government is high. Never lose sight of that threat. Sometimes the imposition of mitigation measures is not based on the science or facts on the ground but rather on political pressures to "do something." Cruising is high on the list of targets for imposition of them and that is regardless of the facts that cruising resumed over a year ago and the incidence of cruise ships contributing to the spread of SARS 2 is non-existent. Do you think that will matter? I don't.  

From the local Sun Sentinel:

Gov. Ron DeSantis on Monday vowed to seek — to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary — a reversal of a Saturday night court ruling that allows a federal health agency’s authority over the cruise industry to remain in place while the state pursues its lawsuit seeking to overturn that authority.

DeSantis said the state would seek to reverse an order issued late Saturday night by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta that prevented the lifting of restrictions on the cruise industry imposed in spring 2020 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

DeSantis on Monday said he was confident that the full 12-member appellate court or even the U.S. Supreme Court would side with the state and reimpose the injunction sidelining the CDC.

I'm anxious to see the US COA's ruling in print. It appears FL's lawyers have seen it and think an appeal is worth it and not just theater. In case you're confused, here is a timeline set in Cliff Notes format:

• In April FL sues HHS and the CDC. There are 5 elements in the suit. One of them is that the CDC exceeded it's authority when it issued the NSO and subsequently the CSO.
• On May 13th, the case is heard before Judge Merryiday in the Middle District Court of FL. He refers the case to arbitration and to get back to him in 10d.
• Subsequently, Several motions to delay are submitted by the CDC. Motions to add Texas and Alaska to FL's suit are filed (Alaska later withdrew because of conflicts between congressional legislation authorizing ships to sail from US ports without porting in Canada [Jones Act] and the FL suit)  
• Arbitration fails and both sides provide their arguments before Judge Merryday on June 13th. Merryday issues his ruling on June 18th that FL wins on the merits but stays the order enjoining the CSO for 2w pending a rewrite of the CSO that comports with existing laws.
• The CDC files a motion to stay (extend) his order to enjoin to July 18th. Merriday denies that motion.
• On July 16th,  the CDC files an appeal to Merryday's denial with the 3 member US COA. The US COA rules 2-1 in favor of the CDC's appeal on July 17th. That stops the enjoining of the CSO on July 18th. 

According to the news above, FL is appealing the US COA's decision in favor of the CDC to the 12 member Federal Appellate Court 

There are now two court  proceedings tracking along: (1) the original trail court that Judge Merryday is presiding over - the one that he ruled in favor of FL - and (2) the appeal process involving the US COA's ruling - in favor of the CDC - that reverses Merryday's decision to deny CDC's request to stay his order.

OK, take a breath. If the US COA's reversal of Merryday's denial of the CDC request for a stay of his order is successfully appealed to the 12 Member Federal Appellate Court or, if necessary, the USSC the appeals process ends and the CSO immediately becomes a set of recommendations only. Of course I'd expect the CDC to appeal if FL prevails at the 12 Member Appellate level. That takes the case to the USSC ...... which is not in session and won't be until October.

If it comes to the USSC, FL still has a chance to make a statement before the CSO expires in November and/or make a renewal of the CSO by the CDC on December 1st impossible. 

Does this matter in the short term to us cruise fanatics? Not really and I've explained why up thread. But this case is enormously important going forward and FL's appeal makes that clear.

Desantis is a dedicated supporter of less government in our lives especially the power that springs from the abuse of executive orders and actions by the president's executive branches such as that taken by HHS/CDC. You can agree or disagree with his politics but the outcome of this case will either increase or decrease the capacity of the executive branch of the US government to establish laws without being responsible to the voters and increase or decrease the role of the Legislative branch, that is responsible to the voters, in making those laws.

Right now, the US has become over time what is essentially an administrative state meaning that the executive branch, including the president (although laws more clearly limit his powers) has been given too much power by the courts and the legislative branch has failed to reclaim it. A return to a more powerful legislature is at stake in what is seemingly a small time case. It's not.    

22 hours ago, MrMarc said:

But I've had 2 doses of moderna  earlier this year and 1 J&J Friday, so I have two total vaccinations.  I know it' strange, but it's something my doctor and I decided was best.  I am afraid I will confuse them.

First, I've read some of the literature on the efficacy of a "normal" two dose regimen of the mRNA vaccines and a booster with the J&J product. For certain cohorts it is believed that this approach is promising. The thinking is that it boosts your immune response and protects against reinfection by existing and future variants.

It's not for everyone. Let me be clear. Don't go out and seek a third shot. If you think you might have had a muted immune response due to an exiting medical condition, talk to your health care provider about your concerns. Let them make the call.

MrMarc, if I were you, I'd just present the vaccination record for your two Moderna shots. Don't even mention you have had a third. Maybe you were just joking about confusing staff who are checking vaccination records but if you weren't your concern that they might be confused is entirely legit.   

42 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

Couldn't congress also do something about it?

Not exactly sure what "it" is but I'm assuming you mean the conundrum the cruise lines face in implementing sometimes widely varying sets of pandemic rules.

I think it goes without saying that the US government was unprepared for the SARS2 pandemic and reacted to it in a confused and chaotic way. Recall the "swine Flu" epidemic and 911. Did government agencies learn from these chaotic or poorly informed responses? There were plenty of post mortems that resulted in moving the deck chairs around. I do think the 911 Commission did some good in preventing another 911 type event on US soil.  As far as it goes with pandemics, there was a lot of stuff done relating to preparedness after the Swine Flu thing but successive administrations gutted the public health services that came up with those preparations and wrote them into contingency plans. To my knowledge, those plans went unused and, left on their own, state and local governments reacted poorly with little coordination across neighboring state and county lines and inconsistent mitigation measures that often differed between counties and even streets.  

I wouldn't rely on Congress to do anything in the short term or useful in the aftermath of the SARS2 pandemic. There could be exceptions. As it relates to the HHS and CDC, I think there is momentum and the political will to rewrite legislation that more fully limits the powers of the executive in a PHE.      

As a related comment on masking, I just returned from an 8n Greek Isles sailing on Celebrity Apex out of Athens. Sailings from Greece fall under Greek PH policy and require guests to mask indoors. Similar to the US, once seated in a restaurant you can remove your mask. However, there is no distancing or capacity limits in bars and restaurants in Greece. Greece has a 35% vax rate, over 65s pushing 70%. The outdoor masking requirement was suspended just 2w prior to our cruise but is being reconsidered with rising Delta variant new cases. Greece has similar masking requirements in transportation hubs like the US does. If you are in an Airport, public transportation, cruise terminal and so forth, you have to mask. 

Lines sailing from foreign ports will comply with the home country masking and distancing policy that they are sailing from. Greeks have been largely compliant with mitigation measures but only to a point. There were angry demonstrations about 2 months ago demanding the government ease all restrictions and they did ease some. OTH, the  Greek government has been very supportive of the travel and leisure industry in Greece. They've been open to travelers (with restrictions) since June 2020 and with practically none since May of this year. Foreigners have to be vaxed to enter the country and this was strictly enforced with multiple check points checking your documents passing through Immigration.

Even though Apex reportedly had 99% vaxed out of 800+ guests (the 1% were kids under 16), guests were required to mask indoors but not outdoors. No staff that I observed were telling people to mask. Once that became obvious, I'd estimate that masking anywhere on the ship indoors dropped to around 60%, maybe lower. I did feel guests were sensitive to distancing and if it could not be maintained (e.g., elevators) people masked out of politeness (yes, there are polite human beings!). Restaurants aboard (not bars) had distancing but not capacity limits; that is being controlled by limiting the number of passengers to start with. Because there were so few guests, productions shows in Eden, The CLub and the main theater were easily spaced. There were reminders in all three of these venues to "Do Your Part and Stay Apart." Seemed to work without enforcement. Given that, it was easy to space in those places - everywhere actually. There appeared to me to be some dependence by Celebrity of taking responsibility for your own COVID behaviors. Not only did I like that approach but it seemed to work pretty well throughout the ship[ 

Celebrity is trumpeting that using their pandemic related health approach on Apex sailings out of Greece, basically using the HSP recommendations and, i.e., without the CDC breathing down their necks, has sailed 4X carrying 2000 guests and another 5000 crew without having a single COVID+ test and these are administered to guests once before boarding, once before debarking and any time a guest or crew member presents to medical with URI symptoms. Pretty amazing but not at all surprising. 

There are two factors that impact mask requirements aboard RCL branded cruises:

(1) The cruise lines policy regarding masking requirements.

(2) The masking requirements established by local authorities for home and call ports.

There is no simple answer to your question. The best way to understand all of this is to be informed of the latest information then keep checking the RCL web site for the most recent health policy updates. I don't think there have been updates to this post. If there have been and others know about them, please provide a current link.  https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/07/05/face-masks-not-listed-royal-caribbeans-august-health-protocols

IMO, masking on cruise ships in some form or for specific people is going to be with us for a while. Waiting for a date certain when, across the fleet, no masks will be required is going to stop you cold from cruising. My advise is accept it and comply. Arguing that masks aren't effective or that the lines should follow this or that guidance instead of having us all be inconvenienced with mask requirements isn't worth the time and/or energy. Be grateful cruising has resumed. YMMV.  

8 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

I am not in disagreement with you here. But "The so what" comment apparently means it doesn't bother you that a government agency controls a vacation segment most here love to do. And now if the CDC wants to tighten down the CSO they can; if the CDC wants to shut down the cruise lines they can; if the CDC wants to extend the CSO they can!!!!! That bothers me.

 

 

It certainly does bother me. If you've been following my posts on the subject of government overreach you know I'll push back when I see that sort of thing. The CDC, having, IMO and that of Judge Merryday's, clearly exceeded their lawful authority with the NSO and the CSO.

Having said that, IMO, the arguments about the validity of the CSO and it's status quo circumstance at the moment have become irrelevant for me. I'm leaving the outcome of whether or not the CSO was lawful to the involved federal courts in anticipation that Congress, the rightful authority here, will rewrite the current laws to insure executive powers in a PHE are limited. 

What is relevant to me is exactly what you mention going forward. I would love the US COA, and if it makes it there, the USSC to uphold the Merryday ruling that slams HHS and the CDC and if that happens, great. But for us cruisers, my "so what" position reflects that it looks like we may have to live with the CSO and what it has wrought until it expires and as it pertains to the stuff we and the cruise lines will have to put up with. IOW, I'm sanguine with whatever outcome in the FL case prevails. That is mostly because and to reiterate, I believe the US Congress will act to limit executive powers during a PHE going forward. YMMV.

20 minutes ago, danv3 said:

Not sure why the CDC would negotiate at this point.  The CSO remains in effect and they're fairly likely to get a written COA opinion in a few weeks endorsing a tremendous expansion of their power.  

Let me clarify ....... when I say "negotiate" and then suggest they might arbitrate, recall that is what Merryday wanted to happen at the gitgo and the parties did that but could not agree. This time around, at least in the Trial Court, I would expect Merryday to ask the parties to "try harder." With the CDC having the US COA's ruling in their pocket, they may have achieved some leverage but aren't home free so to speak. Merryday's rulling was convincing and powerful. Until Friday the CDC's position was on life support. Both sides can claim support for their positions. 

So, FL negotiates, gets some reasonable concessions form the CDC on the CSO, who were on the ropes, making it look more like the HSP and both sides claim wins. That's how these things go down when both sides have legit arguments in the narrower case and I think they do. What I'm saying here has nothing to so with these larger issues that are becoming obvious. I don't think the lawyers care about that right now. They want to survive the 15 round match with a draw, the CDC more than the state of FL.

17 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I agree, except the CDC did no request that the Stay be delayed, and the order did not say it was, so i believe it would have gone into effect today. 

Understood the former but, it is my understanding that the US COA essentially reversed Merryday's ruling that rejected the CDC's request for a stay. Ipso facto the CSO remains in effect instead of expiring - maybe that's what your saying and I'm misreading your post.

20 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

 I am still concerned that decisions like this that will have broad effects on the way the CDC and possibly other agencies empowered by legislation might have, I wish the issue at the heart of the case was something much more substantial than cruising.

Oh, I don't think there is any question that the involved federal judges know that striking down the CDC's authority to issue the CSO and labeling it as unlawful and an abuse of executive authority granted in the US Constitution and more narrowly in this case codified in U.S.C 42, section 264, which is exactly what Judge Merryday did in his written ruling, would be a big deal. I'd argue that the US COA wants this pushed up to the USSC becasue it is a big deal and that may be what happens when all is said and done.

Two points: (1) What those that have cruised recently have experienced is cruise operations dictated by the SARS2 pandemic. Personally, I'm fine with that .... for the time being and until all of this sorts itself out, and it will. The mitigation measures are inconvenient on a scale of somewhat to a whole lot depending on a cruiser's circumstance. It is going to take a while to sort out the pandemic's ongoing and future impacts. So, get used to it. (2) Given (1) the larger issues and what you are talking about here are the implications on government regulatory authority that the court's rulings on this singular FL law suit might have going forward.    

16 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

yep (in response to @smokeybanditpost saying we'll have the CSO well inot 2022)

And, so what. As I posted up thread, the CSO is now baked in to restarts from US ports. The lines are adapting to health care policies in foreign ports. These seem, for the most part, more or less mirroring the US CDC's guidance via the CSO.

What's important in regards to that is that the lines have almost uniformly adopted the provisions of the HSP and have clearly demonstrated those recommendations are kicking COVID's ass. Sure, they aren't making cruising risk free wrt infectious disease and the highly transmissible variants of SARS2 but what the lines are doing is reducing the risk of bad outcomes aboard all cruise ships (ala, the Princes Cruises, Diamond Princess of 2020). From the record, I'd say the risk of a really bad COVID related outcome on cruise ships following HSP (and I'll reluctantly add CDC's) guidelines and recommendations is about zero

What's important to watch from here on out is how the various involved judges/courts rule on FL's initial claim of unlawful government over reach by HHS/CDC. I have no gut feeling of the outcome. Tough one to all. 

31 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

The other option is to allow the appeal to continue to get an idea of how the Court of Appeals feels about the issues.

I think we have a glimpse of FL's position on this. On Friday last, the CDC filed a request for an extension of the date required for their response to the Trial Court (Merryday's domain). The new deadline for the CDC's response would now be delayed until August 12th. The CSO, as per Merryday's ruling, therefore did not expire today. FL did not contest the request and it was granted. The CSO is still in effect.

That leads me to believe FL wants to know how the US COA feels about the CDC's case. The liberal US COA court make-up leads me to believe they support the CDC's arguments to uphold that the CSO is lawful and within their authority to act in a PHE. IOW, this court is more likely to favor a liberal view of government authority (I agree with FL's position that its overreach) to protect PH interests. The US COA's written ruling is not yet in the public domain. I doubt FL's lawyers have had a chance to look at it either.  

I'd expect that after a careful read of the US COA's written ruling, if FL thinks the US COA is likely to side with the CDC in any appeal of the trial court's (Merryday's) final ruling, i.e., reverse it assuming Merryday will shoot down the CDC's rewrite of the CSO and the CDC will again appeal that ruling, FL may negotiate with the CDC (arbitration). If FL thinks that the US COA will send any further CDC appeals back to Merryday's court, essentially gut punching the CDC, they won't negotiate and will go for the walk-off homerun against the CDC.

I think the trends in the USSC are instructive, Among that court's conservative judges, they nevertheless have made rulings this summer that are clearly based on liberal interpretations of the law. That the US COA seems to be more liberal, one would hope that the dissenting conservative judge may have some influence over the two liberal judges. But, I agree with @MrMarc, the outcome and now this thing tracks is interesting.

Thanks for looking this up @CGTLH. In revealing the US COA's likely political leanings, one can see why this case and subsequent opinions by involved federal judges highlights political trends in the US either toward or away from government control of who we are and what we can do. The long term outcomes will definately affect the cruise industry operations from US ports.

The debate is not black and white say, for example, it's not only about powerful, liberal authoritarian governance v. Laissez-faire conservatism. For reasonable conservatives it is more about how much regulatory authority is necessary to promote the public's interest. For reasonable liberals it is about the positive role that government can play in obtaining equity and justice. Both sides have good arguments.

As I have opined, the immediate and short term outcome of the FL law suit will have little impact on cruising (the short term outcome of the NCL suit will). It's the long range trends in either a liberal view of expanding government authority in the public's best interests or a conservative view of not limiting or restraining what government, in the form of the HHS/CDC, can regulate (or over-regulate) the cruise industry. 

Just got back last night from an 8n Celebrity Apex cruise from Athens Greece. We sailed on the 4th sailing of Apex from Athens that started in late June. The 4 cruises have had 300, 500, 600 and 800+ pax respectively. Staff aboard Apex I spoke with think Apex will be at full capacity (around 3K guests) by October. Celebrity sailings from Greece don't have to deal with the CSO or FL vaccine bans. Viral prevalence is low in Greece, though trending up in terms of new cases but not in terms of hospitalizations and deaths. That's the trend just about everywhere. There are rising vax rates in Greece (overall, around 35% and climbing, ahead of the EU average. >65% in over 65s). Greece has been open to tourism since June of last year (with restrictions) and since May 15th of this year with most restrictions removed. You have to be vaxed to enter the country. 100% of crew and 99% of passengers were vaccinated. 

No surprise, somewhere around 2000 passengers have sailed on Apex since it's first sailing in Late June without a single COVID+ test as far as I know. (they are administered by an agency hired by Celebrity to perform the rapid antigen tests before you board and the day before you debark). Celebrity is trumpeting this and rightfully so. Greece appears to be a trend setter globally in how to help the travel and leisure sector recover. 

My point is that in light of the industry's mostly uniform implementation of the HSP's recommendations the CSO is an unnecessary burden on the cruise industry with questionable benefits and significant costs. But that is not the most important point to be made here and is now irrelevant. Arguing about the effectiveness or appropriateness of the CSO and CDC's role in regulating health and safety policies on cruise ships has been beaten to death. No longer worth the key strokes or time. I've not seen or read the US COA's 2-1 ruling to reverse Merryday's refusal to stay but I think there is a fundamental view among the consenting judges that looks like this:

The implications of setting the precedent Merryday would establish if his ruling stands is a precedent setting matter of complex maritime law better left to Congress to sort out going forward. I personally think this will happen in the aftermath of the pandemic so, I'm sanguine about both this US COA ruling and the apparent agreement from what are probably liberal US COA judges with a tendency to grant government more and more power over our lives. There is strong support across the isle to implement better oversight over both executive and CDC actions in a PHE. Its likely that the US Congress will effectively establish limits to executive (the president and other executive branches of government (HHS/CDC) authority to prevent the spread of communicable disease. Even though the ongoing legal action by the state of FL involves the narrow context of U.S.C 42, section 264 (denying free pratique where the CDC concludes allowing it presents a threat to the pH), ruliong in favor of FL would have wide implications in case law. IOW the US COA judges aren't saying either party's arguments are wrong. It is saying we don't think it is the place of the courts to make or change the law (interpret is another thing so there is some hair splitting here).

What's the impact? Nothing really. The industry has more or less gone along with the CSO for restarts from US ports. It's now baked in to their restart plans.. The legality of FL vaccine passport concept ban, when it is resolved in the coming days (or weeks) by the filing of the NCL suit alleging it is unconstitutional (probably) and wrongly trumps appropriate federal authority of the EEOC (that it does isn't debatable, except in Ron Desanti's mind)), will have an impact. 

As long as we don't have an over-reaction by PH policy makers to the upward trends in new cases in the US and abroad, ameliorated by steady hospitalizations and deaths, normalcy will return to cruising ...... with minor inconveniences in US state's and foreign ports involving ship-board COVID mitigation measures, e.g., masks indoors. There will be exceptions where countries like Japan (and other Asian sovereigns), Australia, NZ are pursing zero COVID through lock-down strategies.  Still, there's a definite global trend toward "learning to live with SARS2." I call it an accommodative approach. There are sill loud voices calling for elimination strategies and these are not without basis. Australia is a good example where geography makes it a reasonable approach.

Here's the thing: the pandemic will take one of two courses. (1) it will run out of places on the spike protein to mutate and will self extinguish, (2) it will find reservoirs of unvaccinated and/or naïve hosts, continue to  mutate into more problematic forms and be more than a seasonal nuisance like influenza presently is. We don't have  enough data yet to definitively say which of the two pathways SARS2 will travel down. I can make a good argument for caution but only involving PH policies that correctly balance costs of implementation with PH benefits derived therefrom.

Happy cruising.

TBH, I've stopped reading most pandemic metrics reported - summarized is a better word because those summaries can be terribly misleading - by the press. There are data bases available on line that report dozens of different metrics. The good ones don't try to interpret them. One really has to look at what's available and do your own interpreting. I have some knowledge but not the expertise to roll what's available into meaningful conclusions about any number of things having to do with the pandemic.

That PH officials and virologists dance around what the data means and speak in frustratingly vague terms is because these people know how difficult it is to make authoritative statements based on the data that is available. I've posted here previously that reporting rising case numbers, without other background data, is not an indication of a worsening pandemic situation. But that is uniformly the conclusion that the press often implies or the reader/viewer of those reports concludes. As well, politics have been folded into interpretations and this is just another factor that makes most interpretations flawed.

The best way to proceed is to reject almost everything that is reported in the press and on social media platforms, find data bases that reliably report raw numbers (there are many), study them and draw your own conclusions. Then, assess your own risk tolerance and proceed accordingly. It's too bad that most governments and businesses take liability into account when making policy and that produces various restrictions - inconveniences - that sometimes we just have to deal with.

1 hour ago, cruisellama said:

Are the private journeys excursions “tailorable to accommodate special interests or just higher end transportation modes?  Or both?

Yes, they'll make an itinerary to fit your needs. They call these "curated" explorations. I will say this. We booked two ship's tours out of 6 ports and got our money's worth. I'd be hard pressed to pay for one of these curated tours. If you want privacy, I'd check out tours by locals and do your own depending on circulating virus conditions We just did the second one today. First the prices were reasonable for what was delivered. Especially today. This one was a "small group" tour of Rhodes. I think there were 15, maybe 20 people. This was a 4.5h tour of Rhodes that included a tour of the Knight's castle (weirdly destroyed in a explosion and fire in 1856 and completely restored by the Italians 1936-1943 by none other than El Duce, Benito Musilini. The highlight was a "brunch" in a shaded park inside the fortress that surrounds the castle. Three courses with red or white wine - as much as you wanted. Fabulous. The guide went through an impressive 3000y history of Rhodes dating back to 1000 BC. Both guides were really good. First time with a serious effort to book tours through the ship. I was surprised how high the quality of them was ..... the days of a day trip in a cab or hire for $60 are long gone. Good guides that are licensed know there is demand and arranging a tour on your own is both risky for a you pay for what you get standpoint and pricing. Ce;ebrity markets their tours as vetted and high quality. Celebrity delivered. I will probably book another if I still can.  

Apex Day 3: We were in Limmasol Cypress today. It is a very popular vacation spot for Brits and EU citizens. Americans visit this city via cruise ships. Its economy is tourism and from the looks of it, pre-covid it was very developed and making lots of money. It's slowly coming back but I'd say it's only about 50% back.

Life with COVID protocols aboard ship: Celebrity has a policy of everyone over 15/12 has to be vaccinated to board.Local masking policy in Greece dictates on board masking requirements.  All the time inside (except cabins and the usual exceptions). No masks outside - and this was just recently changed about 2w ago. Before that masks were required indoors and outdoors. Case numbers are rising again in Greece after months of declines. Deaths and hospitalizations continue dow trending. The Greek government is considering require masks outdoors again. Aboard ship, no staff are telling guests who are unmasked to mask. I'd say 30% don't wear mask indoors. There is ample signage about spacing. They ask elevators be limited to 4 - one person in each corner. That seems to be pretty well adhered to. I don't mind the masking so, it's no big deal to me. With the protocols, ship life still seems about normal. What's really nice is the pax load - about 800. Nothing is ever crowded. There are no lines. We haven't taken a cruise ship tour since the nearly 2000s when we first started cruising. We booked two on this cruse and finished one yesterday in Lammisol. 16 people on a 3h walking tour. Guide was a PhD Greek art history professor that is based in Cairo Egypt and teaches at university there. She was excellent. Ship tours are reasonably priced with three tiers: Normal Group, Small Group and Private Journeys. Private Journeys are very expensive and involve things like balloon rides, private yacht sailings, helicopter tours are mainstays. Not ever port has the Small Group which is a group under 10. Rhodes, where we will be on day 4, is one. Its a 4h tour with lunch included. Around $90pp. Not terrible, Could probably get for less but during COVID feel better about using ship tours. 

More later.   

Edge class ships are different and Celebrity, learning from Edge, created a better design for Apex. There's a better balance of wood (although most of it is engineered) and plastic so Apex feels more "shippy" than Edge did.  Beautiful color schemes, both modern and traditional decor, overall beautifully decorated and appointed. Easy to find your way around with everything marked. There were around 800 guests (up from 300, then 400, then 600) on Apex's 4th revenue sailing. I'd guess maybe 25 kids under 18. Pretty sure this is "managed" - IOW Celebrity wants "fully vaccinated" sailings and bookings are controlled in some way to keep it like that.  We felt like we were getting  luxury level service - exceptionally attentive and welcoming staff at every venue. Celebrity is like this anyway but this was a different level. Certainly that the ship had less 1/3 of it's capacity (around 3200) made staff attentiveness, lack of lines, exceptional service possible. My advise is to go on these early sailings even though getting there and getting aboard can be a PITA. So far, it's totally worth it. One of the differences in the Edge class ships are the dining venues. There are 4 "main" dining rooms, all aft and stacked on top of each other, port and starboard, decks 4 and 5. There's a buffet (Ocean View Cafe) all the way aft, a burger grill on the pool deck and 6 specialty restaurants with different themes. The premiums to dine in each of these varies but it's expensive. On this sailing (8n) there are 8 dinner seatings. We purchased the dining package for 4 specialty restaurants deeply discounted (each dining venue costs around $30/person instead of the usual $45 - $55 if you booked separately and aboard. The Celebrity Edge class ships are perfectly suited to do this. We will dine in all four of the complimentary main dinning rooms and 4 of the 6 specialty restaurants. One of the specialty restaurants is on the top deck and outside. It's a steak place featuring outdoor grilling. There's also an outdoor movie theater up there. The pool deck is divided into indoor (Solarium) and outdoor pools. The indoor pool area has a cafe serving coffee and healthy stuff for breakfast only. The spa and fitness center is forward on the deck above. Big and well equipped including a spin and HIT studio.  Another different sort of thing is what is called Eden. Like a garden with lots of live foliage, it is a bar, entertainment and restaurant (2 of them - one complimentary and one specialty)) area that takes up decks 5 and 6 and a good portion of the entire aft 1/4 of the ship on those two decks. Adjacent to it is a small theater with an adjoining bar. Full production and acrobatic shows are done here along with single performer acts. As a guest, you are right on top of the performers, feet away on the ground floor, 50 feet away on the second level. The main theater is, as in the case of most ships, all the way forward and on two decks, 4 and 5 aboard Apex. 

Apex, 8n Greek Isles Itinerary, July 9th to 17th. Quick update Day 2. Airport Arrival: We were nearly 4h late to Athens. Airport Customs and Immigration were highly organized and went smoothly. As you lined up and entered immigration, two airport officials checked that you had your passports, vaccination records and Greece Entry forms you filled out in advance and received a QR code in your email. Our QR codes were easily retrievable in my G Mail Account without an internet connections (stored - nice feature of G Mali for off line access).

We arranged for airport transfer to the ship - normally we don't because we don't like to wait for the bus to fill up. Celebrity was prepared for our late arrival, we picked up our bags pff the carousels, cleared immigration (no customs), easily ID'ed Celebrity Reps, went straight to a waiting bus with 5 other couples and off we went to Piraeus. IOW, no wait for the bus to fill up. You can hire a limo or get a cab easily but that's going to cost upwards of 60 euro. Because of COVID, we felt better using Celebrity provided transport ($75). It was a good call. Athens airport is new,clean, everything is well marked and also in English, and nice. Trip to Piraeus took about an hour in heavy late afternoon traffic.

Celebrity Check-in. After getting off the bus, lots of Celebrity staff pointing where to go. The check in facility is a tent - fancy but still a tent. There were fans and industrial style AC units that blew cool air but it was still quit warm but not uncomfortable. To enter, you show your passport and express pass as usual. The new part is the pre-boarding antigen testing. If you downloaded the Trust One App (the company that is doing the antigen testing), you registered, received a confirmation email and QR codes. I took pictures of these and saved them on my phone - good thing because to retrieve them for check-in, from the app you need an internet connection. After showing the QR codes we went to an area where there are several lines and staff with tablets )there's no check-in desk. You again show your passport that gets scanned to the tablet and your express pass gets scanned - your checked in. Not so fast. Next, we were directed to the antigen testing area, got tested (nasal swab), waited about 15 minutes in a designated area within the tent and in front of a big TV screen that flashed your QR code number. Took about 15 minutes for the number to show on the screen. Went to the people signing you off and got a sticker so you could proceed to the ship ...... after you went through security. To complete the entire check in process, your dealing with your phone, where you stored testing QR codes on it, your hard copy passport and your express pass. I had every thing I needed on my phone and printed out for back-up. Used both. The whole process was different, more complex and took longer. Normally an Edge class check-in takes about 10 minutes. This took about 45. It was very well organized though. I'll post a ship review next.

Apex, the second edge class ship is brand new. It was supposed to start revenue sailings in Europe in May/June of last year. She had been floating around with minimum crew in the Med. I was surprised to learn that Celebrity started bringing staff back aboard 2 months before the first sailing in late July, 2021. Almost 100% of key engineering and departmental supervisory staff were brought back. Enough hotel, kitchen, spa and fitness staff brought back to allow the ship to practice full operations. Crew were moved to guest staterooms, were scheduled to drink at all the bars (there are 7 of these) and dine in all shipboard restaurants - there are 9 of these - the ship, for all intent and purpose, was fully operational as a practice sailing. I was told the crew had a ball.  By the time that the first revenue sailing took place, most of the kinks of a restart were ironed out. We were the 4th revenue sailing from Athens.  

Headed to Athens to board Apex tomorrow. We are flying out of Miami via Newark to Athens. This is a same day arrival. They're risky. I booked with Celebrity Air so, it's up to them to get us there. We live about an hour N of Miami International Airport. We booked a hotel and stayed there last night with short shuttle to airport. Way too much risk/stress getting stuck in traffic same day with am departure. The hotel I booked has free parking for 3d then $6/d after that. Airport parking is $16/d. I experienced some mild URI symptoms the 3d prior to our flight. I'm vaccinated but still didn't want to get to the cruise terminal in Athens and get a positive antigen test there administered pre boarding be X. If that happens you'll be denied boarding and quarantined by the Greek government. So we went to the airport early and I did an antigen test there.Took 30m. It was negative. As a result we checked in with United about 3h early. The airport was quiet, TSA a breeze and there was no line at the UAL counter. The agent reviewed all our docs that included passports, vaccination record and a pre-arrival form required by the Greek government. That took longer than the antigen test! Tips for international trave: check country entrance requirements and make sure you complete pre-entry forms. Print copies. Book flights with plenty of time between connections Arrive at airport earlier than you would for international travel. Arrive at least 3h before your flight leaves to check in. That is taking longer than usual as staffing is short. Better to get through check in and TSA  then sit than be rushed and in a hurry.  On COVID testing: Greece requires proof of vaccination or PCR. My recommendation is that even if you've been vaxed and if you have URI symptoms pre travel get tested. Why? URIs, mostly absent for the last year are on the rise. Chances are that's what you have. However, even if you've been vaxed, you can get COVID. An unmasked high dynamic indoor area exposure to a Delta variant can be problematic. I had one of those. Don't set yourself up to get quarantined on international travel. Test. 

The last time I sailed on Celebrity over a year ago, they have an iLounge. It's full of Macs. There is some free access and airline web sites might be included. If not, you can create an account and you may be able to pay by the minute or hour or however your ship runs things. There will be a solution for you to check in. I feel pretty confident about that.