UNCFanatik

11 minutes ago, wordell1 said:

Maybe they will do both.

Maybe so... 

and maybe I have misunderstood the nature of test cruises? Will they be non-revenue? Would test passengers pay for extras on the ship? 
 

too much for my feeble mind of 20 to comprehend ..err.. I mean 30... ok.. it’s over 30 years ...well maybe it’s a “few” years past 30... lol BUT Who asked you???!!!

But looking forward to another lightning round of Royal information game show this week!!!

But seriously, it will be good to see them finalize and flesh out their plans and the communications that follow!

I’m so confused about test sailings and Royal’s policy on vaccinated passengers?

I got lost somewhere along the way.. why would royal have non-revenue test sailings AND vaccinated passengers and crew? What did I miss? 
 

I know this is all fluid but I thought it was test sailings OR vaccinated passengers and crew??? Not both. 
 

is this all to appease the CDC? 

13 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I'll add this Question? For cruises sailing from US ports in July you may have booked, has check in opened? 

For my July 17th cruise out of Miami, check in is still unavailable 

Eventually, a shift needs to happen with looking solely at case counts and the response from the government. Lockdowns and mask mandates have not shown to stop the spread of Covid. Just look at mask wearing compliance in Asia especially Japan yet cases are up. Targeted responses are much more effective. Protect the vulnerable. Vaccinate. Develop more therapeutics. Also when we hear case counts rising, we have no context. What is avg age of cases? And what % of these cases are asymptomatic? Are hospitals getting overwhelmed? 

Covid isnt Ebola. Covid isnt SARS with 15% mortality rate. We have lost perspective on Covid. Covid is endemic and will not go away. It will eventually be less harmful. Zero Covid is a fool's errand.

When it comes to cruising. Yes, precautions need to be taken but lessons need to be learned from this last year and policy needs to be adjusted to curb some of this abuse of power we have seen including the CDC. As I stated before, we cant turn public policy over to any one government agency. Turning the cruise industry on and off is not the answer to curbing case counts. It causes too much human collateral damage which in turn cause their own set of health issues when people are unemployed and cant afford proper preventative health care. We have been too hyperfocused on Covid while ignoring a vast array of other health issues that resulted from lockdowns. 

Its past time for the CDC to lift or strip away the most restrictive and unworkable parts of the CSO. 

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I saw that NCL re-opened bookings too, but Carnival clearly had this lined up well before today.

It's been said in other threads, but clearly there is an "inside track" to what's going on among the executives.

Yes... I am slowly starting to acknowledge that the cruise execs wouldn’t be so bullish on July claims to restart if they didn’t have some “handshake” arrangements in a deep dark anti-chamber at the CDC HQ. 

And to think Matt, you had me all worried about my July sailing... I kid I kid 

thanks for your steady hand at the wheel here!

I agree and we have seen the CDC follow a political lead on masks just recently so a natural conclusion would be that the CDC follow suit the same with the CSO. but that is using logic so we will have to see....

25 minutes ago, JasonOasis said:

I certainly hope so.

I just got home from a 6 day vacation in Las Vegas and except for concerts and Cirque du Soleil every thing  on the strip and Fremont street is wide open without capacity limits. I've been putting off using any vacation days this year hoping cruising will return but I needed a mental break, and the funny thing was when the CDC announce no mask for the vaccinated within the hour people at the Venetian were taking off their masks. By the next morning I would say 95% of people had no mask on and this was at every hotel we went to. Our last vacation was to Cabo late last year everyone inside the resort was masked. But it was amazing to be in Vegas inside these fabulous hotels in the casinos going to comedy shows, the nightclubs are open no social distancing and no one is wearing a mask while indoors, yet I still can not set foot on a cruise ship.  What is the difference between the Venetian and the Oasis of the Seas?  I hope something happens to help the cruise industry out in this country because if Venetian had to adhere to even half of the restrictions the CDC has put on cruise lines they wouldn't be open right now especially not at 100% capacity.

I always thought that Vegas hotels and all inclusive hotels were the closest comparisons to cruise ship environments. I agree that now that Vegas is 100% open then there is no reason not to drop the CSO and let cruising begin in July. 

I believe as @JeffBpointed out in the Alaskan thread that the political climate is turning in favor of cruising returning this summer. There is no way that Alaskan Bill would have passed both House and Senate if the politicians didnt see the winds changing. This administration needs some wins right now and return to normalcy in all areas.

It is good to see an update today. I am encouraged that they put out this communication today.

I am hopeful that the plan is succesful

8 minutes ago, twangster said:

Pretty sure that's what Royal is saying to the CDC.

Also pretty hard to come up with a solid plan when you are dependent on the CDC.  

I understand they are dealing with an incompetent agency and nonsensical rules. I get that and I know the cruise lines need to get back to sailing. I am a big fan of that happening. 

I get all that. If test cruises are now the plan, then just state as such. Give a timeline of when test cruises will begin albeit tentative to CDC approval. If you look at the 30 day in advance application and then the 5 day approval time, time is just running short for a mid-July restart. Maybe they have made the application and received approval?? 

I know its a fluid situation. I know I am biased cause I have a mid-july sailing. I am trying to stay patient but I desperately need a vacation and to be on a lounger on the deck with a cold drink in my hand!

Stop with the vagueness. Stop using terms like "very soon". 

Are we back to the test cruises now? Under 60 days until July 15th. If test cruises are going to happen, is it realistic to think Royal will sail in mid-July from the US? 

I know its a fluid situation with the CDC and July but its time for Royal to come out and give some solid updates for its customer of cruises in July. 

It would be good to hear some kind of realistic, solid plan from Royal. 

13 minutes ago, CruisinForABruisin said:

You wanna put politician's, some of whom believe that Jewish space lasers started the California wildfires, in charge of public health decisions?

Yes, its up to our elected officials to set public policy with input and guidance from various, applicable government agencies even when there are kooks on both sides of the political aisle. The CDC and other health agencies should be risk adverse and have a desire to err on the side of caution. But that attitude in policy making is not workable. We were never intended to try to set Zero Risk based policy in the US. The collateral damage from lockdowns should be a reminder of that lesson

11 minutes ago, Jill said:

And they’re not requiring vaccines 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/25027-carnival-may-not-require-covid-19-vaccine.html

wouldnt that mean that test sailings would be required? I thought it was either 98% crew and 95% passenger vaccination requirement OR test cruises. they are 44 days out from July 3rd. Wouldnt they have test cruises in place by now if that was the case?

8 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

I also think the CDC needs to be put in check. It should be on politicians to implement such sweeping measures for this long... We don't get to vote for the CDC, and it's hard to argue we're in a true public health emergency anymore.

I agree. Policy making is not under the CDC purvey. CDC is supposed to provide health "guidance" and recommendations which our elected official consider when setting policy. the CDC is supposed to be risk adverse. I get it. But public policy should never be set on an unobtainable zero risk. Thats why the CDC can "advise" that a person not smoke because of health reasons but they cannot mandate that the Tobacco companies shut down. The CDC can "advise" that people dont eat raw oysters, cookie dough, meat not well done, but the CDC cannot shut down any food manufacturers. 

I didnt sign up to be ruled by technocratic overlords. Covid has broken many systems in the US

7 minutes ago, wolfganghowell said:

Carnival just announced yesterday that they are sailing out of Galveston July 3rd.  Hoping they stick to it - Royal won't be far behind I bet.

Good luck with them meeting that July 3rd date.

9 minutes ago, twangster said:

Charles Sylvia with CLIA stated he thinks all of this will be sorted out so ships can sail before the lawsuit reaches a conclusion.

I hope he is right. Too much of this state of Limbo crap. They wouldnt need mediation at all if CDC was a competent agency. But I am hoping this doesnt drag out to the deadline of June 1st. CDC needs to make concessions and then its done. 

I am more than ready to hear an actual update of substance from Royal other than boilerplate "we are continuing to work with the CDC" or "Yes, we will be sailing in July" for July cruising. I am now 60 days out from a scheduled July 17th sailing. I hope they do not wait until mid-june to announce plans for July cruises. I know I am being selfish here but I would really like to know soon so I can make alternate plans during a summer of high travel demand. 

I am routing for cruising restart very soon because this shut down is not based on science. 

The CDC announced 2 senior level people leaving from agency this week. I hope more of this happens and Walensky is shown the door as well. 

Both RCG and Carnival are "planning" to cruise in July out of the US but it remains to be seen if that will be possible. 

I am always "planning" to eat right and lose weight. Does that always happen? 

I hope something can get worked out by June 1 in mediation or CDC changes CSO so it will be reasonable.

Will be interesting

45 days away from their first July cruise 

15 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

It will definitely be renewed, since without it there's no CSO or any other kind of covid mitigation "guidance"

Thats my thought but I wonder what is the threshold for it to drop on a federal level?

What about the Public Health Emergency Order? I know it was renewed in April? Will it be renewed it July? Will they let it expire? 

All I am seeking is consistency between what is being done on land to apply at sea when cruising and IF cruises restart in July from the US, the cruise lines and CDC should reflect the current conditions. 

Nobody wants to have to be masked in the MDR in an absurd fashion of masking in between bites or courses because that lacks any science or data especially if vaccinated. 

Royal has a right to set their terms of service and I agree, if the rules are posted in advance and you sign off of them, dont be that guy who refuses to comply with an underpaid crew member who is ask you to put on a mask. 

Airlines are different. I have flown 7 times during the pandemic, all with American. There was no contact tracing. Mask were theater. If you have 100+ passengers that can take off masks at any time when they eat or drink then you should have no masks at all. Again the virus has now been shown to be aerosolized and you are inches away from fellow passengers. That cloth mask is not going to protect you like people think it does. There has been little interest in the US to tie covid spread to air travel. BUT, there will be great interest to tie cruise travel to covid spread. 

12 minutes ago, JeffB said:

@twangster That's too dark a take for me. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water applies.

The CDC has a lot of very smart people working inside of it. I could rattle off some significant contributions they've made since they became a government agency in 1946. But as is typical, the CDC has gotten incredibly big. There are over 10K people on the payroll in Atlanta alone and they sport a 1.5B salary budget out of an $11B total budget.

Their size and organizational structure (who's in charge or the Abbot and Costello gig, who's on first) is their biggest weakness and has contributed mightily to their bungling of the SARS2 pandemic. 

I'd advocate to reorganize to make one of their agencies more agile and responsive to the next pandemic that will almost certainly occur. I think that is also in some of the legislation already submitted to Congress but not yet fully deliberated.

During congressional hearing this week Fauci was asked how many people in his organization were vaccinated and he said over half and then said around 60%.

The FDA director gave the same answer as Fauci

The CDC director, Walensky, failed to give a percentage and just deflected and then landed on the answer that the government has not made vaccines mandatory for the CDC

What signal does that send to the general public when their leading Health Orgs dont have a high vaccination rate? How can we get to the 70% of US population to be vaccinated that the CDC and Fauci claims for Herd Immunity when they cant even get to 70% in their own organizations. 

17 minutes ago, twangster said:

in other words history repeats itself and we never learn.  

The difference now is allowing a government to shutdown just one industry while allowing all other related industries a free pass.  

Exactly. You couldnt go down to a small business selling clothes that was shutdown but you could go to Wlamart and buy clothes or order from Amazon

Kill the local, small business but the corporate big box stores continue to thrive or even grow economically during a pandemic because their competition wasnt allowed to do business. 

Just like now, Casino Hotels open at full blast but The cruise industry is bleeding cash daily because of our ineffective CDC

12 minutes ago, JLMoran said:

Actually, world governments did institute lockdowns during the 1918 Spanish Flu. There are published newspaper articles that several of my friends had shared with me showing the crazy parallels between then and now. As with now, the lockdowns were working to reduce the spread of the disease. And just like now, the big problem was that people needed to work and continue earning a living. Today we have multiple industry sectors that can work remotely, but they're basically all high-tech or phone-based (e.g, customer support and billing, or service booking businesses). Still tons of jobs that require getting out of the house and going to work.

Just like back then, masks were heavily promoted as a way to reduce infection risk. And just like today, they became politicized and large groups refused to wear them.

And if you go further back in history, you can see even then basic ideas of lockdown or isolation were attempted. When the bubonic plague was sweeping Europe, cities closed their gates to all incoming foreigners because they had no idea how it was spread. Ships were blockaded and merchant trains denied entry. Problem of course was that the disease is spread by fleas living on rats that just jumped ship and swam to shore, or were riding with the merchants and just entered the city via the sewers or other entry points.

So yes, widespread lockdowns historically don't work. But they absolutely have been tried before.

Yes, I realize that localized lockdowns were put in place in 1918 but nothing like the one sized fits all lockdown that was tried in the US. Lockdowns only delay the spread unless they are so strict and draconian. 

And there are scientific, data driven reasons to question mask wearing unless we are talking about a properly fitted N95 mask when a virus is aerosolized. Mask mandates have not proven to stop the spread even among populations with high compliance. See Japan. In reverse, dropping mask mandates have not proven to increase the spread of Covid. see Texas. 

Virus going to virus as some would say. I am not saying that we shouldnt try to take mitigation measures. We definitely should. Protect the most vulnerable. But lockdowns have not shown to be effective and cause too much collateral damage to a society. Especially against a virus with a low death rate. If we were talking about something like Ebola, i would understand more harsh measure.  

1 hour ago, JeffB said:

Completely on point. I don't know the details as well as I should but several of the bills introduced in the US Congress over the last month or so include rewriting applicable U.S.C. that tends to grant HHS this level of sweeping authority to regulate businesses without appropriate over-sight. 

I get the knee-jerk reactions in February to what was going on globally with the SARS2 outbreak.  But within hours of what amounted to wholesale shutdown of economic activity in the US accompanied by severe restrictions to personal freedoms, Congressional over-sight and review should have commenced. I find it disturbing that it didn't and it was just assumed all these PHE declarations that authorized state and local governments to lock everything down were needed to contain the virus.

When did CDC "guidelinuides" become defacto law of the land in some peoples minds? But its interesting now to watch the people who said you need to always follow what the CDC says are now saying ignore the CDC when it comes to masking now. The CDC has always had "guideline" and "recommendations" in all areas of public health but people chose to ignore. BUT with Covid, all of a sudden the CDC is the gold standard, never to be questioned authority. 

There is a reason that governments never tried wide spread lockdowns on countries before for pandemics. They do not work. We have been part of the worst human experiment in history. Now we are reaping what we sowed. Long term harm to our children, opioid abuse, mental health issues on the rise, serious diseases not detected early enough, economic destruction, inflation, etc Lockdowns didnt stop Covid spread. Mask mandates didnt stop Covid spread. Japan has one of the highest mask compliance among its populace in the world and they have recently had a large uptick in Covid spread. Sweden turned out to be the example we should have followed. 

People forget in 2009-2010, there were 60 million cases of the swine flu, H1N1 in the US. AND if we tested the way we test now, there would have been more cases detected. But we didnt see daily tickers of cases or the government and media push panic porn the way we have seen in the last year. 

The problem now is that after a year of all the Covid fear and panic pushing, its hard for people to recover from that. Just look at the number of vaccinated people that still cling to their cloth masks and refuse to not wear them now no matter what the CDC says or better yet what REAL science and data say. Their masks were truly a symbol of who they are. They are now gripped with irrational fear and in effect they believe in a cloth mask protecting them from an aerosolized virus more than they trust a vaccine. These same people mock those that wont get the vaccine as anti-vaxxers but in effect they are as well and they add to vaccine hesitancy.