Loops

18 minutes ago, ConstantCruiser said:

From all reports the vaccinated on Celebrity were very eager and willing to share their vaccination status with the cruise line.

That's the crux it right there.  The vast majority, an overwhelming number of people who book cruises and are vaccinated don't have an issue with showing proof of vaccination.

This discussion is mostly fueled by individuals who are not vaccinated.  

For most vaccinated who book cruises there is no controversy.

Please reread my post… I have made some edits… that agree with your observation.

11 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

Sorry, but I must disagree. Just look at what Celebrity has successfully did in Florida. 

Please recognize that the Florida Law doesn’t go into effect until this month.  So while Celebrity has taken an approach of coercing passengers into showing proof that they have been vaccinated by declaring them unvaccinated without showing such doesn’t mean they will be able to do that going forward.  It’s really going to come down to how seriously Florida will enforce the new law.  We’ll have to wait and see.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m vaccinated and I really have no problem showing proof of such for any reasonable purpose to which I include cruising but I don’t make or enforce the laws.  Ron DeSantis has a deeply held concern about the “show me your papers” mentality that I respect.  We will know soon enough whether the cruise industry sailing from Florida can treat you differently if you state that you are vaccinated but provide no documented proof.

What’s really concerning is what I have read of the RCCL insurance requirement is that they have made no documented allowance for people who had COVID and now possess the antibodies.  Why should they have to get vaccinated to avoid the insurance requirement?  A recent Washington University Medical School study has concluded that those having the antibodies as a result of contracting COVID are protected as well as those who took the vaccine and it is likely for their lifetime.  RCCL needs to revise their position to address those people.

1 hour ago, mworkman said:

Could you imagine the airline requiring you to purchase insurance.
 

 

Insurance that they just happen to sell.

2 hours ago, deep1 said:

I'm enterprise and every single time they ask and even when I say yes they try to upsell me. Most states require insured drivers... Some companies just pack insurance into a contract without saying anything...

 

 

Do they ask you show them your proof of insurance card?   Do they assume that you’re a liar if you don’t present them with a proof of insurance card?  Do they tell you that you are considered uninsured and that they are going to subject you to a bunch of poo or do they take your word for it?  It certainly wouldn’t be smart business to start a business transaction saying that they distrust you.  They could ask you to sign a document stating that you’re insured… that would probably be OK and afford them the protection they are seeking.

35 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

‘That’s where the huge glaring loophole comes in ….. nowhere in the law does it say they can’t provide an UPGRADED form of service if you VOLUNTARILY show them you’re vaccinated …… ONLY that they can’t require it for you to enter or receive service.  
 

Ron DeSantis would have to instruct his State AG file a lawsuit against the cruise lines and and take it to court if he wants more read into the law than what it specifically says ….. I’ll bet my right arm that DeSantis isn’t going to say what Royal is doing violates the law as written.  He wants cruising started back in full force ASAP for the massive tax revenue and local economic benefits that go along with it.  

 

Let’s just accept that you have a different interpretation.  I am a Ron DeSantis supporter but what he says about Royal’s practice doesn’t address anything but public opinion… what matters is the courts interpretation of the law.  And it doesn’t necessarily require an action by the state AG, as any negatively affected passenger or passenger group may very well have standing.  But in the spirit of  mutual respect, let’s end the back and forth.

15 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

You might want to read the actual section of SB 2006 that deals with the vaccine passport ban ….. nowhere does it say they have to accept your word that you’re vaccinated.  It only says they can’t REQUIRE you to show proof of vaccination “to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business” ….. it also says it doesn't restrict them from “screening protocols” which is a huge opening for interpretation ….. see below: 

 

  Section 18. Section 381.00316, Florida Statutes, is created
  to read:
       381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.—
       (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include
  any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or
  customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19
  vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry
  upon, or service from the business operations in this state.
  This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from
  instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or
  controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.
       (2) A governmental entity as defined in s. 768.38 may not
  require persons to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19

 

Here’s a link to the entire text of the law ….. vaccine passports are only covered in section 18 on lines 1119 thru 1155

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/2006/BillText/er/HTML
 

 

 

We can agree to disagree.  Screening protocols has to do with testing, temperature checks, etc. that apply to all passengers whether they are vaccinated or not.  If you tell me that I will receive a different level of service (e.g. requiring me to wear a mask in public; having certain insurance coverage) based solely on my “proven” vaccination status you are in violation of the law.  It is precisely those behaviors that the law is designed to address.

13 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

The law only says they can’t require you to show proof of vaccination to receive service ….. they’re getting around the law by saying NOBODY has to prove they’re vaccinated to take their cruise ……. BUT the law doesn’t say that they can’t say that EVERYBODY vaccinated or unvaccinated has to follow certain requirements unless they VOLUNTARILY decide on their own to show proof of vaccination …… it’s a big glaring loophole in the law, but it is there.

 

I think you are mistaken… there is no glaring loophole.  You can claim to be vaccinated without any requirement to show any form of proof and they have to accept your word for it.  I don’t disagree that they can set different conditions based on vaccination status but they cannot base that on your proving your status either voluntarily or involuntarily.  Don’t get me wrong, I am vaccinated and fully support people getting vaccinated but the Florida law is very clear and there isn’t the loophole you describe.  As I said that would constitute a feeble attempt to circumnavigate the law which would not withstand the most basic scrutiny.

52 minutes ago, AshleyDillo said:

Everyone 12+ has to purchase an insurance policy that covers COVID.  However, if you can prove you are vaccinated they will accept that in lieu of proof of insurance. 

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Florida law regarding the subject.  They cannot ask for proof of vaccination as a condition of service.  And requiring insurance for service in response to an inquiry that they cannot legally make (“if you can prove”) constitutes an illegitimate attempt to circumnavigate the law that wouldn’t last a microsecond in any court challenge.

Since RCCL cannot request proof of vaccination how will they know who is unvaccinated?  They can ask, but no one is required to be truthful and what about passengers who have had COVID and possess antibodies.  Another Ill conceived requirement!  Looks like RCCL wants to get in the insurance business.

10 minutes ago, Matt said:

Given what you said, I think you're doing the right thing cancelling instead of making final payment.

If you aren't comfortable with the changes and/or have more questions without answers, definitely cancel and see where things go. You can always rebook later, or a different sailing if your comfort level changes.

All too often during the shutdown, I've seen folks make final payment with concerns about the sailing.  No harm in waiting things out.

So Matt do you know what happens to my $5750 non refundable deposit if I don’t make final payment because I sure don’t.  This is not RCCL making an itinerary change this is demanding that a 12 year old child be subjected to a vaccine that they don’t need as the science and empirical evidence shows COVID is not really a threat to children and if the adults are vaccinated then the unvaccinated children are not a threat to them.  The requirement is unreasonable and irrational.  This is my third attempt at this cruise and I’m getting a little tired of making interest free loans to RCCL whether it’s their fault or not.  I ran a billion dollar/year engineering services business and if I treated my customers in the manner that RCCL handled this change I wouldn’t have had very many customers left.  Major customer relations failure for obvious reasons.  And NO, I don’t want FCCs, I want a refund… do you know what RCCL is offering because I don’t.

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The Royal Caribbean contract you agree to when you book any cruise means they can change pretty much any aspect of the cruise and they owe you nothing.

Pre-covid, the cruise contract was the rationale why a cruise line could skip ports, change itineraries, go nowhere, etc, and not have to refund or compensate you.

I'm sure this won't change your mind, but I wanted to explain why they can do it, and point out it has been the case with many other policies, big and small, for years.

Matt, I have no problem with the rules changing, I have a problem with not effectively communicating the changes, and failing to provide information about the implications, alternatives and remedies.  I have a final payment due on Monday and RCCL has effectively cancelled my cruise without telling me what the remedies are (e.g. refunds).  This was a family cruise for which I booked 5 grand suites and three of the five are negatively affected by the rule change and I will need to cancel all 5 because I don’t intend to cruise without 60% of my family.  I have no insight as to what remedies are being offered.  I’m sorry, but RCCL blew it in terms of customer relations.  There is no defense!

8 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

It’s not exactly buried. You would not be able to complete booking without being given the policy, and acknowledging it. 

You’re overlooking the fact that many impacted were already booked before this change!

Click on the RCCL home page link labeled Health and Travel Alerts at the top of the page and see if you find any mention of the change to the vaccination policy!  Where is it buried you ask?  In the FAQs for what you should know before you book.  I guess they don’t think it’s worthy of an “Alert.”   Particularly if you’re already booked.  They have truly botched this on a major league level.  I am personally furious and I’m rethinking whether this is a cruise line I would ever consider using in the future.

1 hour ago, Phoenix said:

RCG is going to keep quiet for as long as they can to avoid any negative announcements.

They weren’t shy about changing their vaccination requirement to include 12 year olds on cruises out of the US after 1 August.  And shame on them for burying that change in the FAQs of what you should know before you book.  Well what about those of us who have already booked.  There should have been a flashing banner on their home page with this change.  My TA was furious because she had received no notification of this change and found out about it from me.  I wonder how many passengers who are affected by this and who made final payments still don’t know about it!  RCCL screwed up big time and I won’t forget this one.

On 5/20/2021 at 12:52 PM, Matt said:

I've reached out to Royal for a comment

Matt, any further info from RCCL?   I have a 22 August family sailing and I feel like I’m right on the edge.

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

This is not the place to debate the vaccine

Thank you Matt.  The posts needed some adult supervision.

9 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

yep mine is due Monday for the Aug 22nd sailing

Are you on the Oasis out of Cape Liberty?  If so how are you feeling about whether RCL will sail out of Cape Liberty in August?  I’m concerned about NY/NJ/Murphy.

Once we get past the frivolous legal gymnastics, does anyone believe that the CDC has any intention to “mediate” in good faith?  Many of the demands they are making through the CSO might have been viewed by some as legitimate at the peak of the pandemic but are surely nonsensical overreach based on the facts on the ground today.

29 minutes ago, twangster said:

Only Alaska and Canada/NE cruises in 2021 had the final payment due date modified.

All other cruises remain 90 days for cruises 5 nights or longer, 75 days for cruises less than 5 nights.

Thanks for clarifying that.  Looks like I may be making my third interest free loan to RCL in less than a year.  I’m in for five grand suites.

In reviewing the mediation order, one could conclude that the order requires that the mediation must be scheduled to begin on or before 1 June.  I know that’s an interpretation that none of us on this forum would like to be true but i believe it’s a viable interpretation as it is listed under mediation scheduling.  Unfortunately, the mediation could also take weeks or longer.  I hate to throw cold water on the parade and I hope I am wrong.  P.S. I’m not a lawyer.

I don’t see any expediency.  It took nearly a week from the hearing to issue a “fill in the blanks” mediation order.  Looks like there will be more foot dragging until the clock runs out.  I hope I’m wrong.

26 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

30 days out is when RCG notifies you as to protocols. I'm 45 days out and still can't check-in or have not received protocols. I was told by RCG everything at this point is done 30 days out. I also have the option to cancel and receive FCC BUT I'll wait as I know it's going to be canceled. Then, "BADA-BING!!" the ball is in my court, so-to-speak, as to full refund (serves RCG right if I do cancel since they are waiting till the last possible moment) or take a FCC. RCG might even do L&S. Always have a backup plan just in case your cruise gets canceled. 

Did they also change the due date for final payment or is it still due 90 days out?

9 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

I think it's the incubation period of covid being 5 days.  

So if you embark on day four after exposure you are infected most of the time of your four day cruise.  And if you are exposed on day two or later while on the cruise you may disembark infected and undetected.  I have a serious issue with the reliability of testing… I know numerous people who were tested and received false positives.

21 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Another clarification was that disembarkation testing is only required for cruises longer than 4 nights.

Why would the length in time of the cruise matter?  More pure nonsense from the CDC!  If it’s not required for a four day cruise it shouldn’t be required for any length cruise.  What am I missing?

Back in March and April Walensky stated that she had feelings of “impending doom” and was “scared” regarding a resurgence in COVID … the only impending doom she should be feeling is her “resignation” from the CDC.