cruisinghawg

35 minutes ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

I am actually wondering if the info that we upload into the ArriveCAN app can serve as proof.  Because that should show our vaccination status and it's a government run app.

I completed my online check in for Freedom.  It did not ask me to upload or submit proof of vaccination anywhere....

I think they are going to call you and ask. Please clear something up for me, is the Canadian government not allowing you out of the country or telling you if you leave you will not have health insurance? 

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

Which part is not correct?  They are definitely contacting people and asking if they would like to say they are vaccinated and willing to prove it.  As far as denied boarding there is a lot of speculation only because, under the CSO, they have to sail with a 95% or greater vax rate.

Information was directly from Vicki Freed, RC rep, via her web talk yesterday to TA. To add yes both RC and apparently C are calling people to find out vax status, but RC at least is not denying boarding just what percentage will be vaxed so that they can plan their shows and dining.

18 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

If the first Adventure cruises are any indication, Celebrity should have no issue getting to 95% due to the lack of kids.

I agree! Also someone mentioned earlier about C contacting everyone before the cruise to find vaccination status and as such may deny them boarding is not correct. They are looking at how to schedule their shows or performances.

Well let me say that at this juncture that I have no faith in anything coming from the CDC or Lancet.

I am going to throw this out here and see what everyone thinks. Since much discussion has ensued on getting on a cruise or who could go on a cruise I thought I would throw this out.

RCCL need to sail 2 ships on the same day, one will be 100% vaccinated and smaller say Vision and Radiance and the second for vax and unvaxed and could be the larger Voyager, Freedom, Oasis and Quantum classes. They sail the same day from the same port and have same itinerary just in reverse.

I already know some issues with this but looking for some solid feedback for fun.

31 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

Thats been my hope/expectation since about December .... gradually getting there ...

Yep NCL and Del Rio are not leaving Florida they started here built here and their entire model is Floridian. With the exception of the Hawaiian adventure.

52 minutes ago, JeffB said:

So have I. What I enjoy the most is the respectfulness of it here. That doesn't happen everywhere within on-line forums. 

Having said that, you wouldn't think this to be the case but there is lot of nuance to the question of privacy. Protection from unreasonable demands from employers or business and so forth exists in the law. Context is important and we don't need to deal with that here. I'm not a lawyer skilled in interpreting the case law and then presenting oral arguments before a Federal judge or in this forum to make the case, in this narrow example, of whether or not one has a right to refuse to divulge their vaccination status.

To be sure, this question is actually yet to be settled - you can read below at the link. The case law on this question is also interesting and I learned by reading the link that the the case involving the Texas Southern Methodist hospital employees suing to protect their right to refuse vaccination, where the case was dismissed, doesn't relate to the enforceability of the Desantis Ban at all. I thought it might and would make FL's claim that they can ban a business operating in FL from demanding proof of vaccination as a condition of receiving services. 

I will offer one point on discrimination. My reading of the law in the context we are dealing with it here is this: an employer or business has the right to implement policy that aligns with a legitimate effort to make his place of business safe. It isn't discriminating and does not create two classes of employees or customers, as long as accommodation is available to those that do not want to comply with said policy. Employers and business owners may want to consider options such as continued masking, social distancing, working remotely, etc., for those employees or customers with valid medical or religious reasons for declining a vaccination.

As I read through the link, it became apparent why RCL has chosen the path they have chosen. Their legal team has decided that they don't want to challenge the Desantis Ban because the outcome is uncertain. Once again, the complexity of the case law and how it has been applied in different states pertains and it is upon the law, not our personal opinions, that an outcome in this matter will depend. I have a gut feeling that while NCL and Carnival may talk tough, I think they will come up with a way to do pretty much what RCL has done recognizing that a 90% or so vaccination rate will produce a probability of an outbreak to be so low that the risk is entirely worth it. We'll see.  

 https://www.natlawreview.com/article/mandatory-vaccination-policy-lawsuit-update-nurses-take-shot-against-hospital-judge  

 

Couple of thoughts on this if I may:

1 I think I remember DeSantis saying the reason he opposed the passports were privacy or Hippa laws. I could be mistaken as it may have been discrimination or maybe both I just do not recall. But the hidden thing about this is this was not a stand alone bill. This was an addition the states Emergency Management Law. It also expires as soon as the emergency is declared to be over. Currently I am not aware of any lifting of the emergency.

2 I do not see discrimination here as it pertains to vaccine or no vaccine. But since there has been some apparent, shall I say, misstatements on the whole Covid19 situation where do those that have had the disease fall. One famous politician is not getting the vaccine because he has gotten the disease and , according to him is still carrying the antibodies. I have very good friends that say the same and their Dr. has told them no on the vaccine as they do not need it at this time.

3 I still believe that this was one of those unintended spin-offs that was not anticipated. Now how to get out of this may be rolling around in Tallahassee as we type. Florida or perhaps more specifically DeSantis is one of the major reasons that the CDC has started moving on getting cruising going (along with the CLIA putting pressure on congress). It certainly leads me to believe that there is going to be a work around.

4 As I stated earlier Carnival is allowing space for unvaccinated, they just do not let it out much. I read this on the cruise news web site.

Jeff I appreciate your take on things as it pertains to the court rulings. But I have to say that I disagree with your take on the states ban of passports. All of us have a constitutional right to privacy and to deny that right is in and of itself unconstitutional. I do not want to show my passport, or give up my right to privacy, to shop at "name your store of choice". Now that said DW and myself are fully vaccinated and do not mind showing this to RC but some may not and that is their prerogative. 

If the state were to lose a challenge then we all have lost another freedom and what will be next.

As an aside Carnival will be sailing with "fully vaccinated" ships with some "exceptions". So apparently they are making it so people that cannot get a vaccine or kids not of age can still cruise.

Again thank you for your analysis of this and please keep up the fantastic work in keeping us informed.

9 minutes ago, ConstantCruiser said:

Doesn't help Freedom's initial cruises either.  She will still need a test cruise if she wants to sail July 2nd as planned and masks for everyone indoors (CSO based requirement) for the first two weeks at least.

Right but It doesn't look like the mask thing will be going away.

Appeal?

Does one think that either party knew how this would be ruled? I cannot imagine that RC or any other line would be privy to this decision before hand. 

1 hour ago, cruisellama said:

All these "first" ones are touch and go.    All are lines extremely risk adverse and not wanting a bad PR event.   Qs and Os are too big to allow failure - playing it safe.

Also confused - aren't the crew supposed to be vaccinated?   Appears not.

Yes but still within their 14 day window of full effect. I am in the camp that these could be false positives.

13 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Apparently when they're use to test asymptomatic people, it's quite high

 

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/11/17/fda-covid-19-rapid-antigen-tests-can-give-false-positive-results/

This sounds fishy, not the report here but really if they are not very reliable why use them at all? 30% is extremely high.

2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Were they given a second test to rule out false positives?

 

The odds of false positives when testing that many people at once is quite high.

I have heard much said about false positives but have never seen any numbers. Off the top of your head do know any ballpark figures?

3 hours ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

We are on the Aug 22nd sailing. Have not heard anything yet on if our destinations are changing or not. Funny part is when anyone asks my wife where we are going on our cruise, she says 'I don't know, I'm just happy to be going on a cruise.'  lol

Us also. DW just looked up Virgin Islands requirements to enter and EVERYONE must have a negative covid test within 5 days of visit. Well that stop is on day 5 so cutting it close. This may be one reason that itineraries are changing.  See ya on board!!

39 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

I would not. 

For those that say  the fully vaccinated can still catch it, I will point to the MLB Yankees with 9 breakthrough cases of Covid in vaccinated players witch was only detected because they are constantly testing.  "Seven of the infected members are asymptomatic and two have mild symptoms."  So if not tested specifically for Covid no one would have even known they had it, which is why we get Vacinated

Thanks for that info, I forgot that. So I haven't heard of anyone getting covid after vaccination that had a severe case.

How many people here who would cruise if not vaccinated?

2 hours ago, icf75 said:

You are aware that vaccinated people can still get it?

Yes do you have the statics on this? 

3 hours ago, Leroyr55 said:

My only concern would be several unvaccinated passengers testing positive and ruining the cruise for everybody else. 
 

Mine also

4 hours ago, Louvanh said:

I guess how soon we forget the cruise ships and the cases of covid and deaths on those cruise ships March of 2020. 

Yes it is terrible that the local governments would not allow the ships into port to treat the infected.

10 hours ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

Holding out hope that my Aug 22 cruise on Allure will still be a go.......

Me also

15 minutes ago, steverk said:

Regardless of how the lawsuit plays out, I'm convinced that much of the progress that has been made with the CDC is a direct result of the CDC trying to stay ahead of the lawsuit so they can claim it is unnecessary.  In other words, the lawsuit is already having the desired effect of getting cruising started. 

If the lawsuit hadn't happened, I don't think the CDC would have budged and we'd still be looking at November for the earliest possible start date.

I agree this has spurred the CDC into action. I was afraid before this that the CDC was going to extend the CSO. 

I will float this idea out there. Have sailings on the same day, one for 95% vaccinated and one showing a negative test result or vaccination. This way everyone could cruise. Let the comments proceed!!

8 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

I'm still wondering if there's something in the works to just have a single test cruise count for the entire fleet and not just on a per ship basis.

Doesn't any ship that goes into service and does not require 95% passenger must do a test cruise?

19 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

 

You're on to something here guys!  Now I can see why the sailing dates can overlap!

I am sure someone has already suggested this but perhaps this is 2 schedules. As RC does not know the exact date maybe they start on the 2nd or maybe the 3rd.