UNCFanatik

Like wait...just two more weeks? Is this another 15 days to slow the spread?

UGH!!! Hope they sorted it out soon

I i just got off the phone regarding my refunds for cruise planner purchases for my cancelled Symphony sailing and I saw all my cruise planner refunds hit my account with the exception of my cabana purchase. Royal only refunded $500 to my account for the cabana. The Royal customer rep told me that she sees that they applied the balance of the cabana purchase to my FCC instead of refunding the funds to my account and then gave me option to have balance refunded I dont know if this is a common practice but I find this rather shady by not informing me first. Just something for others to be aware of when looking for your cruise planner refunds

I will get into more later but once again you present CDC modeling as established science and yet again the CDC used outdated data. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/93340?trw=no more articles later but just wanted to present this because there is still concern for children being vaccinated. To present this as anyone that disagrees with your assessment is an uneducated rube that spreads disinformation is not only arrogant but very insulting to the 1000s of doctors out there voicing their concerns and putting in the same kind of work you described above.

"Science" is slow to respond because once a narrative and groupthink has set in, many scientists do not want to go against that for fear of losing their careers. A few months ago, Twitter, Youtube and Facebook would take down posts on the lab leak theory but now we are seeing the lab leak theory accepted in more circles and even see scientists that previously said lab leak was never possible to now changing their position. The CDC has demonstrated that they cannot be trusted. Even in last administration, the CDC director held up a mask and said it was better than a vaccination. The current CDC director ignored data on children and had teacher unions craft school reopening guidelines. Im sorry but you cant trust the CDC when they came out with those unscientific and harmful summer camp recommendations to mask children in 90+ temps. Now we have the CDC which has dragged their feet about heart inflammation among younger people while other countries have halted vaccinations among young people. J&J vaccine was stopped for less than this. AND that was a MAJOR misstep by the CDC and FDA which caused additional vaccine hesitancy and slowed down vaccination rates in the US I am not an anti-vaxxer by any means. But I am more than hesitant to have my 13 year old step daughter to get a vaccine that has been shown to be linked to heart inflammation no matter how much the CDC wants to downplay it as being "mild" or temporary. Especially since she is in an age group that Covid risk is VERY low. There is every reason for parents to give pause to vaccinated their 12 year olds just because they have been approved to have vaccine. I am not in the just cause you are eligible, you should get vaccine camp at all because that thinking just ignores the current data we have that needs to be weighed. And its amazing if you watch side effects from vaccines written off as nothing to do with the vaccine by the same group of people that failed to distinguish that dying from Covid was different than dying WITH Covid. And speaking of testing, the PCR test were always run at too high a cycle rate which you now see has been lowered. Not only has the CDC and "science" been highly politicized, there is also the financial incentives now to have a never ending number of booster shots. The CDC is broken and has lost public trust. However, it is hard to divorce the CDC from politics and money. The CDC ignored years of accepted pandemic protocols in favor of widespread lockdowns that caused massive financial damage and collateral damage in other areas undiagnosed and delayed treatment for major illnesses. The data is in and the lockdown "cure" was truly worse than the disease. And how anyone can look at data from the last year and conclude that masks work is truly beyond me. One could even draw logical conclusions that masks gave people a false sense of security which led some people to engage in risky behavior where they got infected. Some still thing Zero Covid should be the goal. Crazy! All this to say, that natural immunity gained through previous case of Covid should be shown to be the same as someone being vaccinated. Some cruise lines understand this and will accept natural immunity in lieu of vaccines. We are nearing herd immunity in the US. There are those in the society that do not want to lose control they gained in the last year and want to keep trying to scare the general populace with the latest variant that will wipe us all out. The UK variant, the South African variant, etc, etc, etc. I support the cruise lines with their stance on vaccines because I believe that businesses have a right to set their own terms of service. But I do not believe that every person who is eligible should get the vaccine especially children. Each family needs to decide for themselves and not be ostracized for it. Royal has setup its two tiered system of protocols and published them for customers to read for themselves. If families decide that they dont want to cruise under those protocols because they dont want to vaccinate 12 yr old Suzy because no cruise ship vacation should be the sole reason for vaccination then they would need to decide to cancel or not thus sending a message to Royal. For my 13 year old step daughter and a cruise planned in November, I am choosing to wait for more data to come in before vaccination and then wait and see what protocols on the ship will be in November

I saw on one of Matts videos from one of the Adventure sailings that he mentioned being able to pay $1.99 a day to text through the Royal App. questions: 1. is this a thing one would think would be offered on other ships and sailings? 2. Does it work? I think I have heard trouble previously with texting through the App 3. If it is on a given sailing, can it be ordered through cruise planner or must it be purchased once onboard ship? Interested in experiences with using this feature on the Adventure or otherwise

Just like in the US, countries in the Caribbean have to set their own Covid policies. In the US, we are continuing to learn the disastrous effects of lockdowns on not only the economy but societal long term damage we have done to our children. Caribbean nations are well aware of the potential of Covid spread by opening their ports back up to cruise ships. But these sovereign nations also know the effect of continued economic shutdown by the cruise lines not visiting. They understand that poverty and economic distress causes more health problems than Covid presents. it’s not as if the cruise lines are forcing these island nations to allow them to port. Each nation has decided whether to allow cruises to port or not and therefore assume the responsibility for Covid spread. And I would imagine that many citizens of these nations that were reliant on tourist generated income, Covid is the least of their worries and they want their governments to allow cruise tourism back. AND again, natural immunity is being ignored. Just because citizens of these Caribbean nations may not have access to widespread vaccines, this does not mean that a percentage of their populace had already had Covid and now have natural immunity against Covid

Lot to unpack here. But let’s start with the level of poverty on many of these islands and the economic effect that not having cruise ships in port for over a year. Many local businesses that relied on the cruise visitors have went under. It’s incredibly selfish to us to assume what the people living on these islands shouldn’t be given a choice we aren’t talking Ebola here. Covid is a virus with a 99% survival rate. When you can’t provide for your family, is catching Covid at the top of your list of concerns? Poverty creates health issues that are far worse than Covid. that’s not to say that cruise passengers shouldn’t be responsible because they should. But is very presumptuous to deny islanders a right to decide about their livelihoods and means to provide for their families. just like in the US when low wage earners that didn’t have jobs where they work from home had to go to work to provide for their families in the middle of the pandemic. not everything is about Covid no matter how overblown the media has made it to be

Good luck with royal running a business with 100% vaccination requirement. and the data tells me these two teenagers will be just fine. better get used to the idea. Covid is endemic and there will be cases on most sailings moving forward either known or unknown.

Thank you for clarification though I could see both factors in play because it was not just essential flights flying unless you think my trips to see customers were vital to the US...lol. Of course this proves even moreso that cruise lines were singled out.

I still would like to see studies done on Casinos where I think there are some similarities to cruising. There are those people that may never leave a large casino to go anywhere else in Vegas and gamble, eat, watch a show, with many of the same people indoors. To me that is a very similar experience to cruise ship. Seems covid could spread indoors in crowded gambling floor with people in close contact just as easy as a cruise ship. And I know they say the ventilation system on planes keeps fresh air circulating but logic would dictate that Covid has spread on long flights but we very rarely hear about air travel and Covid risk because I have flown at least 10 times in pandemic and American always had full flights with middle seats filled. You have never seen a big push to shut down air travel because of the unions and lobbyists

I keep hearing this idea that the cruise lines that cater to families during the summer have a desire to run 95-100% vaccinated sailings out of FL. While I think that they stated as much to meet the CDCs guidelines, now that the CDC guidelines will not be binding and just suggestions, we will see where the cruise lines stand now. I know cruise lines cannot afford bad PR on Covid cases but zero Covid is not possible on cruises now. The CDC is a terribly run organization. That is how you got them saying it was a less than 10% chance to catch Covid outdoors when it was actually less than 1% chance. Then they said they were taking an aggregate of internal studies. Ridiculous. And with masking, there are zero controlled randomized trials that prove efficacy of cloth mask but yet the CDC treats this as religion that shall not be challenged. There are only models. Just one look at japan where mask compliance is very high among populace but yet they had a big increase of Covid cases the last few months. AND the CDC “emergency” meeting on vaccines and heart inflammation amount younger people has now been delayed twice. now, from a business standpoint, I am a solid believer that businesses should be allowed to set their own terms of service. I believe DeSantis should carve out an exception However, also from a business standpoint, how willing is Royal to turn away business from families this summer? They have to do their own internal risk analysis to determine their policies and I promise you that the DeSantis law isn’t the only factor. Will they lose business from families if making vaccination standard too high for them to reach and then require masking of children which is not necessary? Will they lose business from those that would rather be on a 100% vaccinated sailing? What is best possible vaccination rate on a given sailing out of FL given the age demographic of that sailing? These all are factors that Royal must consider when determining vaccine policies. Not just DeSantis. the biggest challenge through all this is public perception. Covid cases will be on cruise ships moving forward. It’s endemic. Unless they test 100% of passengers daily, there will be unknown Covid cases on the ship. There will also be know cases of Covid. The expectation can not be that zero Covid will be on all ships that sail. Never gonna happen. A responsible media that’s not fear porn driven would point out that cruise lines have proper protocols in place that didn’t exist with The Princess when there were so many unknowns. Times have changed. Covid is on the way to being endemic. On its way to a mild infection for most.

Desantis is an easy scapegoat in all this. Do i think he should make an allowance to his vaccine passport law for cruise lines? Yes. However, from a purely business standpoint did Royal ever have an interest in fully vaccinated Caribbean cruises in the summer? When Royal looked at their bookings this summer, did they think they could even meet the 95% vaccinated threshold set by CDC? Lets say Desantis' law is struck down or an allowance is made tomorrow. Would Royal then require vaccination records for all guests? What then? More refunds.....cancellations...rebookings. Logistical nightmare. From a business standpoint do they REALLY want to discourage unvaccinated passengers especially families with children this summer? I get the argument in response that the cruise industry cannot afford restart with Covid cases on ships. However, we all know even with a vaccinated crew and passenger ships, Covid cases can still happen if testing is done. Its about mitigation and following protocols. Lastly, as has been stated many times, we need to start treating Covid as endemic and not pandemic as cases continue to wane across the country. I know the media will keep with the variants scare but that seems more of a tactic to get more people vaccinated. I bet the NIH, CDC, and FDA all have vaccination rates among their employees lower than they are requiring for cruiselines.

Is amazing to me to see the same people so anxious to get cruising back up and running now wanting to deny boarding to families with children. Not to mention the current vaccine concern for those 12-16. As an aside, the ever incompetent CDC pushed back “emergency hearing” on this issue until next week. CDC is a joke. They paused the J&J vaccine for less than this. from a business perspective, Royal doesn’t want to turn away families and there is no guarantee that they ever could have met the 95% vaccinated passengers in the Caribbean this summer. There won’t be 100% vaccinated sailings this summer in Caribbean. The adventure didn’t have 95% vaccinated rate among passengers. what would you have Royal do? Ban all children this summer? Refund more people? There is zero way from stopping Covid on cruise ships. ZERO. and if you are vaccinated believe in science! Trust the vaccine. It will be ok if you sit with unvaccinated people! I would sit with them and I am vaccinated! I just flew on a plane with 200 of my closest friends for a 3 hour flight. Stop the fear.

This is from Matt’s blog post regarding cancelled Odyssey sailings. Maybe I read this wrong but to me it made it seem testing was a CDC and CSO requirement. *edited to add… surely some of crew were vaccinated prior to getting to US? If not.. then I understand this “According to the cruise line, all the crew members on Odyssey of the Seas were tested on June 4 when the ship arrived in Port Canaveral, as part of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) Conditional Sailing Order. The crew were tested again on June 10, and eight crew members tested positive.”

As long as the CDC required testing of vaccinated crew, you are going to see breakthrough cases. I think the million dollar question to be answered is do these vaccinated people with breakthrough cases have enough viral load to be transmissible? As @JeffB has pointed out many times, Covid is on its way to being endemic. The CDC and safe sail guidelines will have to change accordingly as time passes.

Just like with the mishandling of the J&J vaccine, the issue with heart inflammation with younger people will certainly cause hesitancy to get vaccinated. Any vaccine hesitancy presents more issues for a cruise line when trying to set their vaccine protocols.

Still some questions/thoughts linger: 1. Why did Royal never announce a CDC test sailing for Odyssey as they did for other ships? Some will say they saw the test sailing in the App and Bayley said there was a test sailing planned for June. But again, there has to be some reason that they never formally announced the test sailing dates for Odyssey but moving forward with a July 3rd sailing? AND only now when they announce the delay, we hear about more Covid cases on the Odyssey. 2. It is my understanding that the Adventure sailed with less than a 95% rate of passengers with about 1000 passengers aboard. Is it realistic to expect that ships sailing in the Caribbean in the summer can even reach 95% vaccinated passenger rate? Perhaps Royal is realizing that they cannot meet that CDC standard? If they have trouble meeting that standard on the Adventure then how can they expect that on other sailings. Maybe Desantis is right when he is constantly saying that the CDC guidelines for % of passenger vaccination is not realistic at this point and time. And I will not debate this but more and more news is coming out about heart inflammation among the 12-16 year olds who have been vaccinated and this may give some parents pause to vaccinate their children. This cannot be helpful to the cruiselines either that are trying to meet the 95% vaccinated threshold. I know there are those that desire a fully vaccinated cruise but are the cruise lines that cater more to families willing to forego their business in summer season in the Caribbean? MAYBE, its not about Desantis' vaccination passport law but more about cruise lines now realizing that they cannot meet the 95% vaccination rule by the CDC without limiting their business this summer. I know people want to make Desantis the villain and he may well be but the cruise lines are also making their decisions on data they see from those who have booked for the summer sailings

Royal never officially announced an odyssey test sailing contrary to what one source, cruise critic, reported. It’s no surprise that July 3rd wasn’t sailing even without the new development

They were never going to sail on July 3rd to begin with. let’s be honest. Now we know why there was never a confirmed test sailing announced of the odyssey from royal

This is why you never saw any confirmed test sailings. I didnt think they were ever going to sail on July 3rd to begin with.

Are you certain? Not seeing that being reported

Yes, it’s comical to think the flu just disappeared because of the use of masks. Just before the flu disappeared, we were told about the double effect of flu and Covid. Yes, the reason the flu was a non factor was indeed viral interference. But, come next flu season, there will be those who will push for masks on children again because they don’t understand correlation and causation and it will not stop the flu.

We have no idea how many deaths would have been attributed to H1N1 in the US if they would have tested for it the way they test for Covid now AND counted deaths back then the way we have counted them in the last year And we have a counting problem in the US. We have failed to distinguish between dying FROM Covid from dying WITH Covid in many cases because of the financial incentives. And then there is the seasonal flu, should we shut down cruises with families because of cases of flu found aboard which is much more harmful to children than Covid has been? I hope cruising can survive this restart because no matter what, Covid will be on cruise ships just like everywhere else in our daily lives. Its just how the CDC, media and general public handle the news when cases are discovered on multiple cruise ships because if you test every vaccinated passenger, Covid cases will be found. And the there are the false positives where passengers can get left at a port. I know, I know, people will say that is the price to be paid for cruising now but we will never remove Covid from cruise ships because it will become endemic

Too bad there will be collateral damage done with the false positives that are sure to come. Can you imagine being vaccinated and having to take covid test and its a false positive and your cruise is disrupted or worse, you are just left at a port? I know some will say thats the risk one runs when taking a cruise during these uncertain times but still...