SeanOfTheSeas

The Weigands filed an appeal on July 27th 2021, according to WebSleuths. Was this also denied? https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/in-grandfather-charged-in-cruise-ship-death-of-toddler-chloe-wiegand-9-no-jail.512008/page-25 From the terminated case docket, the Notice of Appeal was filed July 27, and new case number assigned:Date Filed # Docket Text 07/27/2021 Transmission of Notice of Appeal, Order under appeal and Docket Sheet to US Court of Appeals re 237Notice of Appeal, Notice has been electronically mailed. (apz) (Entered: 07/27/2021)07/28/2021 #238 Acknowledgment of Receipt of NOA from USCA re 237Notice of Appeal, filed by Alan Wiegand, Kimberly Schultz-Wiegand. Date received by USCA: 7/27/21. USCA Case Number: 21-12506-G. (hh) (Entered: 07/28/2021)

@jeffmw I don’t mean to keep going on and on, so I’m sorry in advance for that, so I’ll be shorter than usual. But its been 30 years, my friend. If Atlantis could be held responsible, lawyers would have been able to make it happen by now but they haven’t been able to in 30 years. With so many rampant issues, you would figure someone, if not a class, would attempt to sue them a few times per year? There was even a story a few years back where a couple were having sex on stateroom balcony when docking in a foreign place and they got arrested. Was Atlantis held responsible? Nope. As a courtesy, Atlantis did pay the couple’s tickets home, I believe. If you watch interviews of the couple, they hold a grudge to Atlantis, still. Here’s a recent scathing article that was written by a maritime lawyer, Jim Walker. He lists all the horrors people are reading about re this Oasis charter. https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2022/01/articles/disease/super-spreader-of-the-seas-atlantis-events-makes-a-mockery-of-covid-19-protocols/ If Jim Walker, someone with a law firm who exclusively is maritime law practice hasn’t figured out how stick it to Atlantis, who else can? In this article he very explicitly explains some of what happens. Knowing all of that, and in the beginning of the article he states, guests have e-mailed him…he has made no case.

@MikeMiaFL Nice write up! Thank you for your perspective, from a fellow Atlantis Alumni. I see you. And I notice your story about the photo ops from a similar one on a Yelp review of Atlantis Events, which has a. whole 2 stars. Vacaya is only a couple years old and is no competitor to Atlantis on a major scale right now. I think they cater to two different market segments of the LGBT community. Atlantis is for gay men mostly and Vacaya is marketed to anyone from the gay LGBT community and promises a lesser circuit atmosphere. I’m sticking with Atlantis for now. I usually only do West Coast Atlantis, the Oasis and Symphony and Allure are ships that are way too wild and way too big. I like the guest population around 2,000 not 5,500, myself.

I don’t think you’re being accused of judgement. The ultimate precedent is the last 30 years that Atlantis has been in business. The charter company and the 3rd party know what happens at these events. They’ve been turning their heads away for the last 30 years and since then have taken zero ownership and have successfully gotten away with it. Each and every year. They will continue to do so, I would imagine. Atlantis nor any other charter will own this, as they shouldn’t. And, as the cruise lines try to come back from the Covid situation, it isn’t in their best interest to turn down full ship charter clients. The Atlantis group also buys a lot of alcohol. At a base rate of 8-12 million dollars to charter a ship, plus percentage of ancillary sales…. (you can see the costs of full ship charter published on a public accessible RCI page). By this logic you present, guests should be able to sue the cruise line from being over-served alcohol. Or even food… “The cruise line made me drink, leading to me falling overboard from a 4 foot high guard rail!!” “The cruise line made me fat!” …these claims are ridiculous, but we know people have tried to take these type of cases to court. The cruise line didn’t do enough to protect the guests …from themselves. There is a legal case pending RCI now. Sam Annello, A grandfather lifted his infant granddaughter up and over a 4 foot railing and out of an open window. He held the child out of the window frame for over half a minute before the unimaginable happened. The cruise line has a video evidence of this occurrence. The greedy family, mother even a prosector, is suing the cruise line. The court of public opinion overwhelmingly blames the grandfather, a 50 year old adult man, not the cruise line. A court ruling in the favor of the plaintiff would be crazy. The line shouldn’t be held responsible. In the legal case you cite, it was settled out of court. There doesn’t have to be any substance for that kind of outcome. That could have been for the reason only to have good optics or meet a legal fee budget cost analysis. There could have been any reason for settlement. We don’t get a finite outcome from a case of settlement for undisclosed details. In the scenario of this discussion, Atlantis should not, and will not, be held responsible. You will have a hard time proving any negligence exists.

You’ll get no arguments there. I think these vax and test efforts do lessen the blow vs no policy at all, however. It might not be foul proof but might reduce the cases. I think the latest round of business is for the cruise lines just to see if they can return. The cruise industry has been eviscerated by Covid so they’re all eager to return to service and get that $$$!

We don’t have to argue, but you’re wrong about that. I’m a 7x Atlantis guest, and I’m very critical of Atlantis. They are very disorganized, their customer service is crap, and they’ve burned me before. However, there is no other gay full ship charter company that provides the experience Atlantis does so many of us keep going back. I am critical of Atlantis for the aforementioned, however, in this topic of drug use, its very clear the onus is on the guest. I’ll be fair to Atlantis. It’s not on them in this situation. Not being a member for long on a public discussion board, means pretty much nothing.

I appreciate your comment and well thought analysis, but I respectfully disagree. My opinion is such that: Atlantis and RCI have clearly set a policy/rule and expectations. The onus is on the guest, fully. What guests willingly do to their own bodies isn’t the business of Atlantis or RCI, less such actions should cause obvious or catastrophic issues for others in the affinity group. You are comparing this to cases of violence and sexual harassment. Underground illegal drug use is not an environmental factor of what is provided, promised, or created by Atlantis and its not something that Atlantis nor RCI can oversee nor should they be expected to. They are totally absolved by legal precedents. Intentions can have a lot to do with court judgement and Atlantis, as previously mentioned, does not plan drug parties. They simply provide the parties that they advertise and do not intend for the drug use to happen on any of their charters. Let’s hypothetical for worst case scenario and say the companies turn a blind eye to this use of drugs. How could it be proven, that the companies know of the problem at all? Without a paper trail, the precedents would back me up that if there’s no documented records of these harms, hearsay probably isn’t enough to do much with. Even looking back year after year, drug overdose on Atlantis is not common enough to trend. Did guests report other guests for using and are these incidents logged somewhere? I guarantee that probably never happens enough for a paper trail if at all. In the case of the guy getting dead, ok, that brings ONE instance of illegal drug use to light. Out of 5,000 guests, as far as the companies know, that is .02% of the cruise charter guests makeup that used illegal drugs and on paper, he’s the only one out of all of them. If Atlantis or RCI were allowing for there to be a bowl of drugs out on the open party floor, ok, then that is an environmental impact and harm and I would then expect them to own consequences of such. The analogy of January events falls flat. Its been over a year and nothing has happened to those big figure heads “responsible” (holding my breath pending the “investigation”). A reasonable person can tell us that when going to the campus of the capital, a violent mob is not expected to be the environment in any case in this area, ever. On a party cruise, the party environment is expected and delivered. If Atlantis told guests “GO go, like you’ve never gone before…now is the time, brave ones, now is the time…to be strong and use illegal drugs!” …then we have a case for culpability on the 3rd party and the line. But they aren’t inciting like that. This is only my opinion, mind you, so nothing personal at all. Just getting my points in for a lively discussion. The Groove Cruise (A mostly straight party EDM cruise) and other party charters have similar underground things that happen on their charter cruises. (NSFW so don’t YouTube or google at work about this one).

That is a good point and very possible. I saw a video on YouTube of cruise staff, and there was some number they threw out that on regular cruises open to the public, there is an average of 1 death on board per 3 weeks. I’ve been on 7 Atlantis Cruises and at the welcome reception every cruise, we have to clap and stand up for the “old gay folk” on the cruise, because without their lead none of us younger gays would be here, able to marry and live openly and be on these ships 30 years later after they started doing gay cruises. The younger are told to say hello and respect the old grandpas on board. Then the Atlantis cruise director usually says something like, isn’t it awesome that these 80 year olds are out on the (EDM) dance floor instead of in bed like all the other older guys. Its crazy but we need the older guests and their bank accounts to buy the expensive rooms and suites - it subsidizes and allows the other rooms to be sold at reasonable costs the younger guys.

Ok, my dear @jeffmwbut where is that line to be drawn, at what point? Where should Atlantis or RCI say “oh this drug issue is rampant, we need to increase enforcement!!” …there is a gray line there. You cannot assume or have data that accurately predicts or identifies how many in the guest population are drug smugglers or drug users. Many people on the cruise do not use drugs, such as myself. Therefore, there should be no special treatment or increase of enforcement when you cannot justify if it is needed in the first place. You have no reliable data, once again. Oh, ok, someone 3 years ago overdosed and died. Ok, that is 1 person among the 20,000 guests that Atlantis hosts per year (.00005%). Let’s say the death on this cruise was caused by drugs. Ok. How can you PROVE to a court of law that there were 500 other people on board also using drugs? Look at the crowd picture…which guys are on drugs? Where do we draw the line on where Atlantis/RCI should step in? It is like asking someone to define what a “viral video” is. …well, a viral video is one that gains quick popularity…but how many hits/views does it need to be considered viral? There is no solid answer to that question and it will vary per person’s opinion given the context. Opinion: Atlantis will take no responsibility for an adult charter guest making bad choices, nor should they ever. As far as we’re concerned, Atlantis/RCI should look the other way. Admitting even partial responsibility for individual’s illegal actions is an admission that could land them in legal trouble. So it is best to think of Atlantis cruises as “what drugs happen on ships?” Atlantis doesn’t advertise drugs, hint at, suggest, depict, or otherwise support anything related to illegal drugs. The fact that many of the guests choose to do this is on the guest. If the guest wants protection from himself, he should stay home! This is my opinion, but Atlantis/RCI shouldn’t be held liable at all. Like this ship, I was on RCCL’s Atlantis Events Allure of the Seas in 2019. Right after I got on the ship, there was a huge commotion in the Crown of Miami (RCCL’s cruise port in Miami). 5,500 guests, sold out. The cops and dogs were out and I believe it was a spot check, so no special monitoring just routine inspection of the port …so the drug sniffing dogs busted 2 guests that had intentions to distribute on board. …Those adults knew the risks before coming to Miami if they were to get caught. Saying that Atlantis or RCI should be partially or fully responsible for them and their intended actions to distribute all of those drugs at high volume misplaces blame. (You can read all about it online, its well documents of this story. Made the national news at the time). Atlantis knows they are a party experience similar to rave-like environment, so Atlantis hired a “Care Team” for these mega cruises. At least since 2019. This Care Team company has a medical doctor as the owner plus paramedic trained staff and they just float around during the party events in case help is needed from indulgences. Care Team were on my cruise I just mentioned and no judgements, guests could go to them for water or help if feeling bad. Also it doesn’t hurt if they intercept the issue before the line’s security gets involved and incident forms filed.

I don’t think that this blame is justified. Atlantis does not support drug use on the charter. They never have. …yes, a lot of guests do bring on drugs, but this is illegal activity. Guests are warned not to bring on drugs and of possible consequences in the Cruise Guide that guests are to read before the voyage. Here is an excerpt from the cruise guide for this last voyage which covers drugs. Beyond this, Atlantis cannot control what individuals in the affinity group do. Just as Royal cannot prevent a grandpa from lifting baby out of a window, or to stop someone from going overboard on their own accord. Or any of the other dangerous careless things people do onboard despite knowing the rules. Per Atlantis: Guest Conduct Policy Please remember that all our guests are bound by Royal Caribbean’s Guest Conduct Policy. The policy is intended to help ensure that all guests are able to participate in a safe and enjoyable cruise experience and sets forth standards of conduct for guests to follow throughout their vacation. Please take a minute to read this policy on the Royal Caribbean website: www.royalcaribbean.com/content/en_US/pdf/Guest_Conduct_Policy.pdf Atlantis Events Cruise Guide (Public) that guests are to read before boarding (posted 2 weeks in advance): https://atlantisevents.com/pdf/OA22-vacation-guide.pdf

Lol. no kids. All guests of Atlantis must be legal age. I can’t remember if it’s 18 or 21. Also, on my last cruise from November, the 100% vaccinated crew had to wear their masks 100% of the time. It make it a little awkward to me, because you could tell so easily who was staff vs guests. It felt like there were two classes of people, the servants and the masters. The masks made them seem less human to me and more robotic/transactional. The cruise guide PDF for this cruise is posted publicly on the Atlantis Events website. Since I know my way around Atlantis as a repeat client, I found the link for you. The Covid Testing requirement section is always in the guide. It is also stated that RCCL/RCI asked Atlantis to modify the Atlantis testing procedure to what RCI wanted it to be. Link to cruise guide: https://atlantisevents.com/pdf/OA22-vacation-guide.pdf Vaccinations and Testing As you are well aware, there are several Covid-19 safety protocols now in place to assure a safe experience for all. We wanted to share a few of the pertinent highlights to prepare you for your journey. All guests must present proof of vaccination in order to sail. Vaccines authorized by the USA, Canada, and EU will be accepted and you must have received your last dose before January 2nd. The crew is 100% vaccinated. PCR) taken no earlier than Friday, January 14. Negative test results will be verified during check-in by Royal Caribbean staff. Failure to produce this pre-arrival test will result in a mandatory on-site rapid test administered by Royal Caribbean at a significant cost. Please see Page 4 of this document for complete details including free walk-up test sites in Miami. Complete details about RCI’s extensive Covid-19 policies can be found here: https://www.royalcaribbean.com/the-healthy-sail-center Please note that Royal has asked Atlantis to change the policies required due to the social nature of our group. We truly appreciate your cooperation in keeping Atlantis safe for all.

This cruise charter was sold out a year in advance. The 3rd Party and RCCL probably didn’t anticipate we would still be in Covid so deeply…

Atlantis Events has been booking these mega ships since they existed. Believe me, they would have found out if gathering 5500 adult MEN (Men generally weigh more than women) in the aqua theatre. There are acrobats (Air-o-tic) that perform above the crowd too…One of them would have fallen off the balance beam if it make a big difference, I would think.

Death on cruise ships is common. There are morgues on all modern cruise ships for a reason. Atlantis doesn’t condone drugs - I know, I’ve been on 7 cruises with them. They cannot control their adult guests any more than a non-charter population.

Let me try to clear up a few things. I’ve been an Atlantis guest for the last 6 years, taking at least one cruise per year. My last one was this past November… On my November cruise, the ship’s staff was 100% vaccinated plus negative on Covid testing. We, the guests, were required to take a Covid test (from a lab, no instant at home test) 72 hours before the cruise. Then, we were required to test negative with an instant test by the cruise line before we were allowed to board the ship. So 100% of the ship was vaxed AND negative at the start of the cruise loop. This is why we were allowed to go around unmasked. I’m sure this RCCL cruise had the same rules, I would think. Second, it is true that Atlantis doesn’t allow cancellations when it is close to sailing time. There IS a refunds time table that they honor. So guests that cancel early on, are not out the entire cost - this is fair, people. If I reserved a room that means someone else cannot reserve it for the 9 months that I held it for; to put the room back out into the pool of availability puts a higher risk of loss to the company as it won’t guarantee a last minute guest will book it 3 days before the cruise starts. Atlantis is a small LLC company owned by one person. RCCL is a huge company with huge optics. We shouldn’t be comparing apples to apples here. We need to keep in mind that ALTANTIS EVENTS is an event planner. They don’t allow late game cancellation because they must provision all the materials for the cruise and can’t get money back for unused provisions. If you plan a wedding and you order a huge cake for 200 people, but only 120 people show up, you can’t return the unused portion. Even if you could, it would be extra time wasted on your part to have to coordinate. We need to keep in mind that people are flakey. If Atlantis allowed everyone to cancel for whatever reason, the full chartered ship would only sail half full every time. So I don’t feel sorry for anyone who changes his mind or has an event happen. Booking an expensive vacation is a commitment and an money investment. It’s spelled out very clear in the contract terms, and I know by my sign up that I take a certain risk. Those who want to be eligible for full refunds should purchase the insurance for “cancel for any reason” and stop trying to blame Atlantis Events for his poor planning or poor understanding.