Discovery of the Seas

[NRD]

This is more explanation for those that still don’t understand why Loyal to Royal frequent cruises are leaving Royal.  

After all the years and $$$ we spent supporting RCCL to reach Loyalty levels. Now they are “devaluing” our loyalty and taking away perks or lessening them show how little they value our support and years we sailed with them.

[smokeybandit]

11 hours ago, NRD said:

This is more explanation for those that still don’t understand why Loyal to Royal frequent cruises are leaving Royal.  

After all the years and $$$ we spent supporting RCCL to reach Loyalty levels. Now they are “devaluing” our loyalty and taking away perks or lessening them show how little they value our support and years we sailed with them.

What exactly has been devalued? 

[Heymarco]

12 hours ago, NRD said:

This is more explanation for those that still don’t understand why Loyal to Royal frequent cruises are leaving Royal.  

After all the years and $$$ we spent supporting RCCL to reach Loyalty levels. Now they are “devaluing” our loyalty and taking away perks or lessening them show how little they value our support and years we sailed with them.

That's an antidote, data shows Royal has more loyal cruisers than ever before. 

[JasonOasis]

On 1/7/2025 at 2:31 PM, smokeybandit said:

RC's bread and butter is the big ships, that's obvious.

But they know there's still a profitable market for smaller ships and know Vision/Radiance class ships can't last forever.

Let me start out by sayin gI'm not disagreeing with you and I certainly hope to  see Project Discovery fulfilled somewhere between the size of a Voyager Class ship and Freedom Class ship. 

What now has me worried is given how expensive it is to build a clean sheet design cruise ship how long would it take for a Royal to turn a profit off a potential Project Discovery ship if it is smaller in size.  Right now Oasis Class and Icon Class ships are the destinations there are just as many people sailing on those ships just because the love the class of ship as their are people sailing on those ships to visit the various ports of call. Can a smaller Project Discovery have that same duel appeal that has made Oasis and Icon Class ships so popular? Whereas ships in the Voyager/Vision/Radiance class aren/t necessarily the destination, the destination is the destination and the cruise ship is just the vessel transporting folks fro one port to another.   Can a ship smaller than Quantium Class be the destination while also getting you to the destination that the larger mega ships simply can't visit?  And if the ship is the destination like an Oasis or Icon Class how much space does Royal dedicate to things like activities, restaurants, bars, nightclubs, shopping, the list goes on and on keeping in mind the more space you dedicated to things like that equals less space for staterooms or worst smaller staterooms. 

Again I want to see Project Discovery come to fruition but given how competitive that part of the market has become and given what we've seen from companies like NCL which has done a complete 180 with their Prima Class realizing the original Prima which is a destination ship was to small didn't have enough staterooms something they are correcting with Prima 3 and 4 which will be 10% larger than the original Prima, and when Prima 5 and 6 are delivered both those ships will be not only longer than Prima but also wider than Prima by at least 20%.    On the other hand you have Virgin Voyages which has found success with its smaller ships that are also destinations but Royal isn't Virgin.  

Trying to thread this needle is going to be difficult and I don't think Royal wants to find themselves in the position NCL found themselves in within months of Prima's launch where NCL went back to the drawing board to expand Prima 3, 4, 5, and 6 which pushed the delivery of all those ships back by a few years do to design changes.  Prima 5 and 6 because of the massive changes taken place will now not be delivered to NCL until 2027 and 2028 which is years behind their original schedule and a ta point in time where NCL needs every new ship it can get.  Royal doesn't what that to happen to Project Discovery to avoid that they've have to take the time now to get this right or suffer the same fate NCL is currently suffering with Prima Class.

 

[smokeybandit]

Some have noted they could mirror Discovery off an existing Celebrity design. It may not have to be a clean sheet.

[baltodave]

40 minutes ago, JasonOasis said:

Let me start out by sayin gI'm not disagreeing with you and I certainly hope to  see Project Discovery fulfilled somewhere between the size of a Voyager Class ship and Freedom Class ship. 

What now has me worried is given how expensive it is to build a clean sheet design cruise ship how long would it take for a Royal to turn a profit off a potential Project Discovery ship if it is smaller in size.  Right now Oasis Class and Icon Class ships are the destinations there are just as many people sailing on those ships just because the love the class of ship as their are people sailing on those ships to visit the various ports of call. Can a smaller Project Discovery have that same duel appeal that has made Oasis and Icon Class ships so popular? Whereas ships in the Voyager/Vision/Radiance class aren/t necessarily the destination, the destination is the destination and the cruise ship is just the vessel transporting folks fro one port to another.   Can a ship smaller than Quantium Class be the destination while also getting you to the destination that the larger mega ships simply can't visit?  And if the ship is the destination like an Oasis or Icon Class how much space does Royal dedicate to things like activities, restaurants, bars, nightclubs, shopping, the list goes on and on keeping in mind the more space you dedicated to things like that equals less space for staterooms or worst smaller staterooms. 

Again I want to see Project Discovery come to fruition but given how competitive that part of the market has become and given what we've seen from companies like NCL which has done a complete 180 with their Prima Class realizing the original Prima which is a destination ship was to small didn't have enough staterooms something they are correcting with Prima 3 and 4 which will be 10% larger than the original Prima, and when Prima 5 and 6 are delivered both those ships will be not only longer than Prima but also wider than Prima by at least 20%.    On the other hand you have Virgin Voyages which has found success with its smaller ships that are also destinations but Royal isn't Virgin.  

Trying to thread this needle is going to be difficult and I don't think Royal wants to find themselves in the position NCL found themselves in within months of Prima's launch where NCL went back to the drawing board to expand Prima 3, 4, 5, and 6 which pushed the delivery of all those ships back by a few years do to design changes.  Prima 5 and 6 because of the massive changes taken place will now not be delivered to NCL until 2027 and 2028 which is years behind their original schedule and a ta point in time where NCL needs every new ship it can get.  Royal doesn't what that to happen to Project Discovery to avoid that they've have to take the time now to get this right or suffer the same fate NCL is currently suffering with Prima Class.

 

Jason-

A great post!  You really hit the nails on the head (and I purposely wrote "nails").  Some things I would add to your discussion about whether the ships themselves or the ports are the destinations: There's a population of cruisers who like the "classic" cruise experience and don't want a floating theme park.  Also, I've heard more than one RC employee refer to the Baltimore embarkation port as the "Royal ATM" since it generates so much cash (it's in the perfect location for cruisers that don't want to fly).  I think the same can be said about Tampa.  I, too, hope Project Discovery comes to fruition and hope that RC doesn't turn it's back on the mid-Atlantic. 

[twangster]

Royal can save millions by leveraging the Edge class hull but with only 3k to 3.5k worth of passengers they'd have to charge a pretty penny to equal the margins they make on mega ships.

 People love medium size ships.  But is there enough love to pay more than or equal to Icon fares to sail a new medium sized ship? 

I can hear it now...

"There isn't as much to do as Icon, how can they can charge just as much?!?!?"  "No way I'm paying that!!!"  

Why would the board approve a near billion dollar expense for a new medium ship when that nearly pays for a new Icon ship?    

[KristiZ]

2 minutes ago, twangster said:

People love medium size ships

I am People, and I would 100% pay as much for a smaller ship *IF* the itineraries are compelling. I’m still hoping Royal moves forward with this

[Geoff P]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

Royal can save millions by leveraging the Edge class hull but with only 3k to 3.5k worth of passengers they'd have to charge a pretty penny to equal the margins they make on mega ships.

 People love medium size ships.  But is there enough love to pay more than or equal to Icon fares to sail a new medium sized ship? 

I can hear it now...

"There isn't as much to do as Icon, how can they can charge just as much?!?!?"  "No way I'm paying that!!!"  

Why would the board approve a near billion dollar expense for a new medium ship when that nearly pays for a new Icon ship?    

I like the idea of utilizing the Edge class hull to jump start the design and go with around 3500 at double occupancy etc…gives you more of the desirable balcony and suite staterooms compared to the ships it would be replacing in the vision and radiance class…plus you can do more desirable itineraries which you can charge more for, so I could see it being approved for those reasons, but like you hinted towards, the board of a publicly traded company cares about one thing so….

[smokeybandit]

Get a fleet of 4-5 Discovery ships, then focus the rest of your efforts on the 200k+ GT ships

[instaGator]

What if Celebrity’s Project Nirvana and Royal’s Project Discovery vessels share the same basic design elements of hull, power plant, propulsion and stateroom layout?  It seems like there could be significant economies of scale that could allow for the building of approximately 10 ships with the same basic design and then adding on brand specific gingerbread like Buick and Chevy…

[Southern Dan]

9 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Get a fleet of 4-5 Discovery ships, then focus the rest of your efforts on the 200k+ GT ships

30 year age limit for the 3 classes (Vision 2026-2028), Voyager (2029-2033) and Radiance (2031-2034) equals 13 ships.  I could see them doing 6-8 ships in addition to the new large builds.  I could be completely wrong too lol.  We've been talking in circles on Project Discovery for awhile now so I am looking forward to getting a formal announcement hopefully this year...

[JasonOasis]

On 1/10/2025 at 9:11 AM, Southern Dan said:

30 year age limit for the 3 classes (Vision 2026-2028), Voyager (2029-2033) and Radiance (2031-2034) equals 13 ships.  I could see them doing 6-8 ships in addition to the new large builds.  I could be completely wrong too lol.  We've been talking in circles on Project Discovery for awhile now so I am looking forward to getting a formal announcement hopefully this year...

Is 30 years really the absolute age limit for cruise ship?  I'm asking because I honestly don't know and also because in the industry I work in the airline industry we thought 30 years was the limit for commercial aircraft before the would be sold off to either a cargo company or sold for scrap. Now days there are several airlines domestic and international including UA and DL and AA who have 30+ year old aircraft still in commercial service.  The maintenance cost is high on these 30+ year old aircraft as they require more maintenance, and maintenance checks at more frequent intervals.  The flip side is they are money makers for the airlines as they leverage these aircraft throughout their networks extracting the most value out of them in between those costly maintenance visits.  But even in the airline industry its a double edge sword as both United and Delta retired their 747-400s before they ever reached their 30th birthday because of high maintenance cost whereas both airlines have held on to their 757s, 767s (some of which are over 30 years old) and all 3 airlines AA, DL, and UA are flying A320s, and some 737-800s that are 30 years old and older. But it is easier now days to find places in the network where they can optimize 30+ year old 757s 737s and A320 than a 370+ seater 747-400. 

I get its apples to oranges but is 30 years really the limit in the cruise industry or can Royal squeeze out a few more years if necessary to give themselves more time to get Project Discovery right the first time right out of the gate?

[instaGator]

Interesting Disney cruse news related to similar sized ships... https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/shipbuilding-equipment/disney-cruise-plans-new-smaller-design-for-3-ships-after-4th-wish

[Rackham]

32 minutes ago, JasonOasis said:

I get its apples to oranges but is 30 years really the limit in the cruise industry or can Royal squeeze out a few more years if necessary to give themselves more time to get Project Discovery right the first time right out of the gate?

Great question. Here's an article from Frommer's on ship ages which talks about that.

https://www.frommers.com/tips/cruise/how-old-is-your-cruiseship-does-it-matter

My take is that they can operate past 30 years, but it's less than ideal.

On 1/9/2025 at 5:04 PM, twangster said:

Why would the board approve a near billion dollar expense for a new medium ship when that nearly pays for a new Icon ship?    

Besides getting families booking with Royal who are turned off for something as large as Oasis or Icon class, there's also port availability. With everyone and their dog who can afford an Oasis sized order getting into the mega ship game, Royal needs smaller vessels so that they can find ports to send their ships to in the future. Otherwise, there's going to come a time where Royal will either have to limit their growth due to lack of available ports or pay a serious premium for their dock slots.

It doesn't help either that Americans generally don't have much vacation time. Thus, to encourage bookings, necessitating itineraries starting or ending on a weekend so that cruisers need less vacation time to sail with the company. Which also means itineraries can be somewhat limited in their port order to minimize fuel costs during the voyage. And this goes back to port availability. Doesn't matter if port X has space available on Monday if a cruise starting on Saturday can't make the journey.

[smokeybandit]

I would think 30 years is when the annual maintenance costs exceed some profitable threshold even if the ship is still more than reliable.

 

[Heymarco]

2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I would think 30 years is when the annual maintenance costs exceed some profitable threshold even if the ship is still more than reliable.

 

Royal Carribean has certainly sailed ships over 30 years old before. A Voyager class ship may still be profitable after 30 years while Sovereign class was and Vision class is more difficult. Believe it or not, the first Voyager class ships were the largest ships in the world at the time. There may still be room for profit after 30 years and wouldn't be surprised to see them around a little longer.

[Rackham]

4 hours ago, Heymarco said:

Royal Carribean has certainly sailed ships over 30 years old before. A Voyager class ship may still be profitable after 30 years while Sovereign class was and Vision class is more difficult. Believe it or not, the first Voyager class ships were the largest ships in the world at the time. There may still be room for profit after 30 years and wouldn't be surprised to see them around a little longer.

I'm curious which ships in RCCL's fleet have sailed over 30 years? Here's the retired ship data I have.

Retired Ships
Ship	Maiden	Retired	Delta
Song of Norway	1970	1997	27
Nordic Prince	1971	1995	24
Sun Viking	1972	1998	26
Song of America	1982	1999	17
Viking Serenade	1982	2002	20
Sovereign	1987	2008	21
Monarch	1991	2013	22
Splendour	1996	2016	20
Legend	1995	2017	22
Empress	1990	2020	30
Majesty	1992	2020	28

[Heymarco]

13 minutes ago, Rackham said:

I'm curious which ships in RCCL's fleet have sailed over 30 years? Here's the retired ship data I have.

Retired Ships
Ship	Maiden	Retired	Delta
Song of Norway	1970	1997	27
Nordic Prince	1971	1995	24
Sun Viking	1972	1998	26
Song of America	1982	1999	17
Viking Serenade	1982	2002	20
Sovereign	1987	2008	21
Monarch	1991	2013	22
Splendour	1996	2016	20
Legend	1995	2017	22
Empress	1990	2020	30
Majesty	1992	2020	28

Sovereign made it 33 years under the Royal Caribbean umbrella, some of the ships were slated to go longer than 30 years even under the direct Royal Carribean brand but Covid had other plans.

You can still book a cruise on Empress today, albeit a different brand. That shows the ships can be profitable and there is no hard stop at 30 years. There are other ships on this list still in service as well.
 

I guess we'll see if they actually sell Grandeur or schedule more cruises past next year. 

[Jill]

On 1/11/2025 at 8:55 PM, Rackham said:

I'm curious which ships in RCCL's fleet have sailed over 30 years? Here's the retired ship data I have.

Retired Ships
Ship	Maiden	Retired	Delta
Song of Norway	1970	1997	27
Nordic Prince	1971	1995	24
Sun Viking	1972	1998	26
Song of America	1982	1999	17
Viking Serenade	1982	2002	20
Sovereign	1987	2008	21
Monarch	1991	2013	22
Splendour	1996	2016	20
Legend	1995	2017	22
Empress	1990	2020	30
Majesty	1992	2020	28

Song of America was sailing as the Olympia under Celestyal cruises. She just was sent to the scrapyard last year. We saw her in Santorini and Kusadasi in 2022. She was our first royal ship in 1991. 

[Nathan adams]

Just sailed on serenade. Thought it was fabulous. I don't see a need to retire and build new. 

[pat8635]

The issue is the age and efficiency of the systems.  On jewel a few weeks ago they showed is where they squeezed in incinerator and many of the other systems that dont meet modern standards.  Maintenance on many systems is challenging and probably most pressing is the azapods are close to their end of life.

 

Also, a new ship is at least 5 years out!  The rest are staggered... so it is looking forward! 

[instaGator]

Since we know that Royal has an agreement with Meyer Turku to develop a Net Zero ship (https://presscenter.rclcorporate.com/press-release/173/royal-caribbean-group-announces-strategic-agreement-with-meyer-turku-oy-finnish-government/), yesterday’s announcement of Meyer Turku’s Sustainable Stateroom project (https://www.facebook.com/p/Meyer-Turku-100088067473066/ & https://cruiseshipinteriors-awards.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/CSIE-Sustainable-Stateroom.pdf) seems to have some relevance for Royal’s next class of cruise ship (Discovery?).  While the focus of this latest announcement is on staterooms, Meyer Turku continues to show off their Avatar cruise ship concept(https://necoleap.fi/project-presentation-sustainable-stateroom/?fbclid=IwY2xjawH16EBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHXSxS_wfDtC9WSPtNrbSjTYgDyz-siY3_6SBLXx2y6EVU23TCT9vLfNYJQ_aem_PQQJtIePESzEIMbshUN1Vg).  Because of the development agreement with Royal, could these actually be the early concepts for Discovery?

[pat8635]

17 minutes ago, instaGator said:

The rooms are bland... weight?  Areo dynamic meaning no more balconies... i cant imagine wind drag is a huge thing at 20mph, but like plane winglets the 4% they save over hundress kd thousands of miles... adds up.  Thanks!  Hadn't see the picks... there are serious discussions about power plant.  Former navy engineers want one thing and green people want another... lng isnt going to be a long term solution!

Zooming in maybe balconies...

 

Since we know that Royal has an agreement with Meyer Turku to develop a Net Zero ship (https://presscenter.rclcorporate.com/press-release/173/royal-caribbean-group-announces-strategic-agreement-with-meyer-turku-oy-finnish-government/), yesterday’s announcement of Meyer Turku’s Sustainable Stateroom project (https://www.facebook.com/p/Meyer-Turku-100088067473066/ & https://cruiseshipinteriors-awards.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/CSIE-Sustainable-Stateroom.pdf) seems to have some relevance for Royal’s next class of cruise ship (Discovery?).  While the focus of this latest announcement is on staterooms, Meyer Turku continues to show off their Avatar cruise ship concept(https://necoleap.fi/project-presentation-sustainable-stateroom/?fbclid=IwY2xjawH16EBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHXSxS_wfDtC9WSPtNrbSjTYgDyz-siY3_6SBLXx2y6EVU23TCT9vLfNYJQ_aem_PQQJtIePESzEIMbshUN1Vg).  Because of the development agreement with Royal, could these actually be the early concepts for Discovery?

 

[Vancity Cruiser]

On 1/8/2025 at 6:55 PM, NRD said:

This is more explanation for those that still don’t understand why Loyal to Royal frequent cruises are leaving Royal.  

After all the years and $$$ we spent supporting RCCL to reach Loyalty levels. Now they are “devaluing” our loyalty and taking away perks or lessening them show how little they value our support and years we sailed with them.

I was just on Celebrity Beyond last week and my wife and I were again discussing how much better Royal's loyalty perks are to every other cruise line. There are other reasons we cruise other lines as we like variety but Royal has the best perks in the game. 

[smokeybandit]

With Celebrity ordering another Edge ship I'll be curious how that impacts Discovery. 

[pat8635]

But edge is bigger then what they are hinting at edge being...

[Heymarco]

[steverk]

14 hours ago, pat8635 said:

But edge is bigger then what they are hinting at edge being...

I'm not sure that's really true.  I've heard statements from Royal captains that range between something the size of a vision class to something slightly larger than Voyager.  Celebrity Edge is at the high end of this range 

[Jamesszy94]

On 1/12/2025 at 3:51 AM, JasonOasis said:

Is 30 years really the absolute age limit for cruise ship?  I'm asking because I honestly don't know and also because in the industry I work in the airline industry we thought 30 years was the limit for commercial aircraft before the would be sold off to either a cargo company or sold for scrap. Now days there are several airlines domestic and international including UA and DL and AA who have 30+ year old aircraft still in commercial service.  The maintenance cost is high on these 30+ year old aircraft as they require more maintenance, and maintenance checks at more frequent intervals.  The flip side is they are money makers for the airlines as they leverage these aircraft throughout their networks extracting the most value out of them in between those costly maintenance visits.  But even in the airline industry its a double edge sword as both United and Delta retired their 747-400s before they ever reached their 30th birthday because of high maintenance cost whereas both airlines have held on to their 757s, 767s (some of which are over 30 years old) and all 3 airlines AA, DL, and UA are flying A320s, and some 737-800s that are 30 years old and older. But it is easier now days to find places in the network where they can optimize 30+ year old 757s 737s and A320 than a 370+ seater 747-400. 

I get its apples to oranges but is 30 years really the limit in the cruise industry or can Royal squeeze out a few more years if necessary to give themselves more time to get Project Discovery right the first time right out of the gate?

The original Queen Mary sailed from 1936-1967 (this one was an ocean liner, but still counts)
QE2 sailed from 1969-2008 - QE2 was converted into a cruise ship

So definitely possible for a cruise ship to get more than 30+ years

HMS Victory is on her 247th year of service.

[steverk]

3 hours ago, Jamesszy94 said:

The original Queen Mary sailed from 1936-1967 (this one was an ocean liner, but still counts)
QE2 sailed from 1969-2008 - QE2 was converted into a cruise ship

So definitely possible for a cruise ship to get more than 30+ years

HMS Victory is on her 247th year of service.

According to Google, the MV Astoria was built in 1944 and is still operating. 

The SS Badger entered service in 1953 and is the oldest operating coal fired steam ship on the great lakes.

So they can operate as long as the owners want to keep spending money on them. However,  30 years seems to be the point where most owners give up and scrap them. 

[RoyalGreek]

We were on Enchantment last week and at the Crown and Anchor reception the hotel director said the following:

The new Discovery Class will be a "white paper" design. Meaning that it will be a whole new design from the keel up. New technology will be incorporated in its design and systems.  The size will be in between the Radiance class and Voyage class ships.  The design will allow Royal to continue sailing from the ports with bridge clearance requirements.  

I would not be shocked if this class did not include Fuel Cell technology for propulsion and power. That would solve a lot of future port environment requirements.

[pat8635]

The cheif engineer on jewel said it will almost certainly not be lng.  And if it is, look for a change in later models...

Turns out lng isnt as good as hoped and i know fueling is an issue.  One port i was at had no smoking anywhere close to peer as ship was getting lng and i don't even think it was a cruise ship, unless MSC has them too!

[twangster]

1 hour ago, pat8635 said:

The cheif engineer on jewel said it will almost certainly not be lng.  And if it is, look for a change in later models...

Turns out lng isnt as good as hoped and i know fueling is an issue.  One port i was at had no smoking anywhere close to peer as ship was getting lng and i don't even think it was a cruise ship, unless MSC has them too!

The problem with LNG is that it is far from clean.  No visible smoke doesn't make this fossil fuel truly clean.  

It's better than HFO but LNG still pollutes. It's cleaner, but not perfectly clean.

As far as refueling there are many cruise ships now running on and refueling LNG in home ports around the world.  Utopia in Port Canaveral and Icon in Miami are two examples of Royal ships.  Smoking is not banned at Grills, a restaurant/bar very close to the ship at terminal one in Port Canaveral.  Carnival's Mardi Gras also at Port Canaveral (terminal three) is very close to the public dock and boat ramps where people smoke. It's LNG.

The problem with LNG is, right now anyways, it's the best option for trying to be green-er. Not truly clean, not the solution, but better than MGO or HFO.

It takes a number of years for any new fuel systems to be ready for mass deployment.  Other technologies work on small scales.  Soon enough something will become readily available in a real world sense, we just aren't there yet.  

[smokeybandit]

I don't know how it wouldn't be LNG-capable. Cruise lines seem near forced to go that direction for any new build.

[GatorCruiser]

Grills is an awesome joint as an aside. 

[pat8635]

All i know is the engineer with captain nodding said it isnt the future.  Navy ships use nuclear, why not cruise ships?

[Heymarco]

4 minutes ago, pat8635 said:

All i know is the engineer with captain nodding said it isnt the future.  Navy ships use nuclear, why not cruise ships?

That technology has been on ships for over 60 years, it's not available for commercial use.

[steverk]

I asked on today's Captain's Corner on Jewel. My specific question was "What is the plan to replace older, smaller ships?" Captain's response was that there's no plan to remove the older smaller ships from service, but the Project Discovery should come on line in 2030 with ships meant to go to smaller ports.  The ships will be about Voyager class in size but configured to go in to Tampa

My takeaways were as follows 

1. Project Discovery is not dead but has been pushed back a couple years. Michael Baley said in the 2023 President's cruise Discovery would be sailing in 2027 or 2028

2. There are competing demands on the class that still need to be worked out. For example, I'm not sure it's possible to have a 130,000 GT ship that can dock in Tampa 

3. At least publicly, Royal plans on using the Vision and Radiance ships for a long time to come.  He even mentioned there is a program to invest in updating Vision class followed by Radiance class.

[smokeybandit]

I've heard 2028 to 2030 at the various Captain's Corners. But even 2030, they'd need to announce something on the order book pretty shortly.

  

27 minutes ago, steverk said:

He even mentioned there is a program to invest in updating Vision class followed by Radiance class.

That's interesting, as there has been a rumor that RC can't be full time in Baltimore anymore because of lack of updates (EPA type stuff) to Vision class.