Discovery of the Seas

[smokeybandit]

Funny that when lots of attention is on RC to see when they build smaller ships, Carnival is jumping into the mega ship market with 3 ships similar to  Oasis class.

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/carnival-orders-three-new-class-ships-at-almost-230000-gross-tons/140033

[twangster]

15 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Funny that when lots of attention is on RC to see when they build smaller ships, Carnival is jumping into the mega ship market with 3 ships similar to  Oasis class.

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/carnival-orders-three-new-class-ships-at-almost-230000-gross-tons/140033

Carnival must be absolutely kicking themselves.  It's only taken ~20 years for them to acknowledge their mistake.  

Back around the turn of the century they decided mega ships would never work.  Around the same time Royal created the concept of Project Genesis now known as Oasis class and then Royal actually built it.  Meanwhile Carnival kept on building medium sized ships and avoided azipods for decades more.

Carnival had a mega ship concept, then cancelled it.  Cute name don't you think?

[WAAAYTOOO]

24 minutes ago, twangster said:

avoided azipods for decades more

I knew about the design FUBAR but I guess I never realized that Carnival didn't use azipods.  Interesting

[twangster]

9 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

I knew about the design FUBAR but I guess I never realized that Carnival didn't use azipods.  Interesting

To be fair they tried them on a small ship in the 90's but didn't adopt them for Conquest class which are the Voyager and Freedom class era of ships.  They used them on their Spirit class but refrained from using them on the Dream class relegating azipods to smaller ships only until Vista in 2016.

[steverk]

5 hours ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

I knew about the design FUBAR but I guess I never realized that Carnival didn't use azipods.  Interesting

Princess largely avoided azipods as well. Last November I was sailing out of Galveston when a Princess ship nearly hit us while attempting a turn. I would have felt much safer if it had azipods!

[smokeybandit]

I know azipods are higher maintenance than fixed props, but jeez, sure seems the benefits outweigh that.

[twangster]

3 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

I know azipods are higher maintenance than fixed props, but jeez, sure seems the benefits outweigh that.

Early azipods were new technology in their day.  Carnival must have been bitten early on or simply decided the innovation wasn't worth it.  Just like the decision to cancel Project Pinnacle, more of the same, no change, low risk seems to be Carnival's approach.  Why change?  We are making lots of money...  

[Jamesszy94]

I was actually reading up on Carnival Cruise Lines earlier today and how many ships they had in their fleet, then came across the three ships they're expected to build in 2029-2031 at 230,000 gross tonnes..... The thing is...that's still 5 years away... who knows how big Royal's ships will get by then... maybe 275,000 gross tonnes (that is when they're done with the Icon class)

They're supposed to have a maximum capacity of 8,000.... 8,000 people on a Carnival ship... sounds like a nightmare.... 

[Rackham]

1 hour ago, Jamesszy94 said:

I was actually reading up on Carnival Cruise Lines earlier today and how many ships they had in their fleet, then came across the three ships they're expected to build in 2029-2031 at 230,000 gross tonnes..... The thing is...that's still 5 years away... who knows how big Royal's ships will get by then... maybe 275,000 gross tonnes (that is when they're done with the Icon class)

They're supposed to have a maximum capacity of 8,000.... 8,000 people on a Carnival ship... sounds like a nightmare.... 

I remember reading somewhere that Royal has concluded ships much larger than Icon don't make much business sense. Probably due to a combination of operation and passenger booking requirements on larger than Icon ships. 

I'm looking forward to the inevitable articles from non-cruiser reporters comparing Carnival's latest and largest to Royal's newest and smallest (of recent builds). Then the article comments from non-cruisers commanding Royal for going small while Carnival's gone huge. Should be fun with a stiff drink.

[twangster]

22 hours ago, Jamesszy94 said:

I was actually reading up on Carnival Cruise Lines earlier today and how many ships they had in their fleet, then came across the three ships they're expected to build in 2029-2031 at 230,000 gross tonnes..... The thing is...that's still 5 years away... who knows how big Royal's ships will get by then... maybe 275,000 gross tonnes (that is when they're done with the Icon class)

They're supposed to have a maximum capacity of 8,000.... 8,000 people on a Carnival ship... sounds like a nightmare.... 

Sounds about right.

Carnival Mardi Gras sails with the nearly the equivalent of an Oasis Class ship but with 80% of the volume. 

Mardi Gras - 5,282 at double and 6,500 at max capacity in 181k GT.

Oasis of the Seas 5,606 at double and 6,699 at max capacity in 227k GT.

The passenger space ratio is wildly different between the two.  

I had no doubt Carnival planned to squeeze them onto this next class.  

[steverk]

13 hours ago, twangster said:

Sounds about right.

Carnival Mardi Gras sails with the nearly the equivalent of an Oasis Class ship but with 80% of the volume. 

Mardi Gras - 5,282 at double and 6,500 at max capacity in 181k GT.

Oasis of the Seas 5,606 at double and 6,699 at max capacity in 227k GT.

The passenger space ratio is wildly different between the two.  

I had no doubt Carnival planned to squeeze them onto this next class.  

I saw a YouTube video yesterday that said Carnival is planning on 8000 passengers.  Idk if that's max capacity or double occupancy 

[smokeybandit]

28 minutes ago, steverk said:

I saw a YouTube video yesterday that said Carnival is planning on 8000 passengers.  Idk if that's max capacity or double occupancy 

That surely is max occupancy.

[Geezer Of The Seas]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

That surely is max occupancy.

I noticed the Cruishive story mentioned Carnival's plan is contingent on obtaining favorable financing for the new ships.

I recall reading Carnival was the most leveraged of the 3 major cruise lines. Their shareholder equity is quite diluted. Where does a company go for a favorable loan? Traditional lender? Private equity? On the street?

The new ship class needs a name.

Carnival Sardines?

[twangster]

8 minutes ago, Geezer Of The Seas said:

I noticed the Cruishive story mentioned Carnival's plan is contingent on obtaining favorable financing for the new ships.

I recall reading Carnival was the most leveraged of the 3 major cruise lines. Their shareholder equity is quite diluted. Where does a company go for a favorable loan? Traditional lender? Private equity? On the street?

The new ship class needs a name.

Carnival Sardines?

This announcement may be part of the fishing for a creditor process.  

[smokeybandit]

3-4 years lines up with what has come out of all the Captain's Corners. 

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2024/08/05/royal-caribbean-ceo-says-new-ship-class-coming-3-4-years

[Plumlee2028]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

3-4 years lines up with what has come out of all the Captain's Corners. 

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2024/08/05/royal-caribbean-ceo-says-new-ship-class-coming-3-4-years

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-ship-orderbook/

 

It also lines up with Royal's order book: 

Star in 2025 and Celebrity Xcel in 2025

Icon 3 in 2026 

Nothing for 2027 

Oasis 7 in 2028

 

For Ship yards, Meyer Werft may have room for 1 ship in 2027 (currently only 1 on order that year) and Meyer Turku has no orders (My suspicion is Royal has slots saved from options for Icon class which could get repurposed) after Star.  Chantiers may have space in 2027. The size being discussed could fit Celebrity potentially as well, I imagine they will want to consider more for that brand, not sure if they would simply get more Edge class or go with a new design. They usually max out at around 4-5 ships in a class.

[barjpoe]

What specialty restaurants will be available?

Chops for sure.  

[Southern Dan]

43 minutes ago, barjpoe said:

What specialty restaurants will be available?

Chops for sure.  

I think Chops and Izumi are locks.  Giovannis will be the third if there is enough room.  I’m sure they’ll make enough room to have at least 3 specialty restaurants.

[Rackham]

3 hours ago, barjpoe said:

What specialty restaurants will be available?

Chops for sure.  

I can't imagine there being less than the usual trio of Chops, Italian, Izumi. If there's not an ice rink, I'm anticipating 4 restaurants in total with the 4th being either Mason Jar, Hooked, or Playmakers (I know Royal doesn't consider this to be a restaurant when it comes to their lists, but they serve a complete food menu so I do).

I'm curious to see how the neighborhoods shake out on Discovery with how it's slotting into Royal's fleet.

[Southern Dan]

I’d be shocked if there was no Playmakers…totally forgot about that.

[Jill]

I would hope for at least 4 specialty restaurants, especially if this class ends up in Europe doing 12 night cruises. I’d love to see a mini Central Park and an open aft similar to the boardwalk. Of course an open promenade with outside seating like Icon would be awesome. All I’m asking for is a cross between icon and oasis that was put in the dryer and shrunk

[Nathan adams]

I would say there is a new restaurant or 2 with new themes by then

[Rackham]

The odds are against a Central Park aboard Discovery. Not just due to the ship's size, but due to where itineraries will take the class. Live plants outside wouldn't do so well during northern itineraries or those sailings happening when it's brisk. 

Just remembered while typing this of the Rooftop Garden aboard Celebrity and also The Lawn Club which are both found on ships sailing Alaska. So maybe a full on miniature Central Park wouldn't work, but there's other enticing options that would. Honestly, looking at Celebrity's Edge class I could totally see Royal making it their own, modernizing and updating the design to current nautical knowledge as applicable, leaving off the Magic Carpet, and calling it Discovery. Edit: Eden is kin to Two70, so there's some precedent for reuse of ideas between brands. 

Edit: Got the location of Eden wrong on Edge, so updated the analogy.

[J_Keeble]

Id say 4  speciality restaurants minimum and i have heard on forums that they could use the designs of EDGE class and modify external colours, funnels etc

[Jill]

6 hours ago, J_Keeble said:

Id say 4  speciality restaurants minimum and i have heard on forums that they could use the designs of EDGE class and modify external colours, funnels etc

If they base off Edge I REALLY hope they ditch the infinite veranda. I’ve got one booked on Apex for the fjords next summer but it’s Norway and it’s chilly. I don’t want one for warm weather cruises. 

[steverk]

30 minutes ago, Jill said:

If they base off Edge I REALLY hope they ditch the infinite veranda. I’ve got one booked on Apex for the fjords next summer but it’s Norway and it’s chilly. I don’t want one for warm weather cruises. 

If I understand Royal's reasons for building Discovery, then it will be used in similar service to Radiance.  That is Alaska, Australia/New Zealnd, northern Europe and Caribbean sailings during off season times. In other words, much of her time will be spent in cold weather. 

Regardless, infinite verandas are probably here to stay. They are more aerodynamic. Therefore,  they reduce fuel consumption. I'd be surprised if Discovery doesn't have a pretty high number of them. 

[twangster]

8 hours ago, steverk said:

If I understand Royal's reasons for building Discovery, then it will be used in similar service to Radiance.  That is Alaska, Australia/New Zealnd, northern Europe and Caribbean sailings during off season times. In other words, much of her time will be spent in cold weather. 

Regardless, infinite verandas are probably here to stay. They are more aerodynamic. Therefore,  they reduce fuel consumption. I'd be surprised if Discovery doesn't have a pretty high number of them. 

I don't think that is accurate.  Royal has made mega Alaska work.  Quantum class has been sailing there for years.  Alaska is not small ship anymore.  Same with Australia and New Zealand.   Same with Greece, Med and many Europe destinations for Royal.  

Discovery isn't being contemplated to address those routes.

To be honest I don't even know why Royal is thinking about a smaller class of ship. 

To be honest I don't think they are.  Fain is gone.  There is a new sheriff in town.

Royal is mass market.  Small ships is not in their wheelhouse any more.   

 

[Heymarco]

5 hours ago, twangster said:

Royal is mass market.  Small ships is not in their wheelhouse any more.   

 

There are still many business use cases and ROI to made on new mid-size ship. Just like airlines don't fly A380's or 777 everywhere.

[Mike.s]

Whatever they go for I hope it has plenty of sea views, some of the Mega ships you would struggle to remember you're at sea sometimes.

[smokeybandit]

Captain on adventure said it would be used for alaska, the med and florida 

[baltodave]

7 hours ago, twangster said:

I don't think that is accurate.  Royal has made mega Alaska work.  Quantum class has been sailing there for years.  Alaska is not small ship anymore.  Same with Australia and New Zealand.   Same with Greece, Med and many Europe destinations for Royal.  

Discovery isn't being contemplated to address those routes.

To be honest I don't even know why Royal is thinking about a smaller class of ship. 

To be honest I don't think they are.  Fain is gone.  There is a new sheriff in town.

Royal is mass market.  Small ships is not in their wheelhouse any more.   

 

I respectively do not agree.  Last year, we took Radiance in Alaska and the experience was way better than had we been on a mega ship.  In addition, mega ships can't use the ports in Tampa and Baltimore.  Say what you want but the Baltimore cruises are usually full and not discounted (in spite of so-so itineraries).  There was even a time, when the Baltimore cruises (on Vision class ships) had the nick name of the "Royal ATMs".  Finally, there are also some natural harbors in Europe (e.g. Montenegro) that can't handle large ships. 

Whenever I've asked captains (like at the Q&A) about newer smaller ships, they have always agreed that they are needed.

[twangster]

1 hour ago, baltodave said:

I respectively do not agree.  Last year, we took Radiance in Alaska and the experience was way better than had we been on a mega ship.  In addition, mega ships can't use the ports in Tampa and Baltimore.  Say what you want but the Baltimore cruises are usually full and not discounted (in spite of so-so itineraries).  There was even a time, when the Baltimore cruises (on Vision class ships) had the nick name of the "Royal ATMs".  Finally, there are also some natural harbors in Europe (e.g. Montenegro) that can't handle large ships. 

Whenever I've asked captains (like at the Q&A) about newer smaller ships, they have always agreed that they are needed.

I don’t personally disagree with you, but quality isn’t a major aspect of mass market cruising.  Moving mega passenger counts is.  

In the RCG grand scheme of things Royal Caribbean is mass market, Celebrity is for a better experience.   

For example... food.  Time and again you'll hear reports that the food is better on Celebrity compared to Royal Caribbean.  Why?  Because it is by design.  Royal is mass market where quality isn't number one.  

[JasonOasis]

8 hours ago, twangster said:

I don't think that is accurate.  Royal has made mega Alaska work.  Quantum class has been sailing there for years.  Alaska is not small ship anymore.  Same with Australia and New Zealand.   Same with Greece, Med and many Europe destinations for Royal.  

Discovery isn't being contemplated to address those routes.

To be honest I don't even know why Royal is thinking about a smaller class of ship. 

To be honest I don't think they are.  Fain is gone.  There is a new sheriff in town.

Royal is mass market.  Small ships is not in their wheelhouse any more.   

 

I'm trying to reconcile what you are saying with what Royal CEO told investors on their Q2 earnings call just a few weeks ago.  Where Royal stated building smaller ships will become a necessity for Royal as the lines largest vessels are itinerary limited do to port restrictions. Liberty also stated smaller ships allows Royal to visit unique destinations which continues to be a priority for Royal Caribbean.  

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2024/08/05/royal-caribbean-ceo-says-new-ship-class-coming-3-4-years#:~:text=In fact%2C President and Chief,vessels in the coming years.

I don't think Project Discovery will be the same size as a Radiance or Vision Class ships in that regards I think Royal is done building ships that small.  However, I also don't think it will be the size of a Quantum Plus, Oasis, or Icon Class ships either.  In my opinion I believe Project Discovery will be the same size or just slightly smaller than Royal's current Voyager Class ships.

[barjpoe]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

I don’t personally disagree with you, but quality isn’t a major aspect of mass market cruising.  Moving mega passenger counts is.  

In the RCG grand scheme of things Royal Caribbean is mass market, Celebrity is for a better experience.   

For example... food.  Time and again you'll hear reports that the food is better on Celebrity compared to Royal Caribbean.  Why?  Because it is by design.  Royal is mass market where quality isn't number one.  

I know that they started sharing loyalty statues , but what I'd like to see that you could earn points toward your C&A status on Celebrity.  

[steverk]

1 hour ago, barjpoe said:

I know that they started sharing loyalty statues , but what I'd like to see that you could earn points toward your C&A status on Celebrity.  

Be careful what you wish for. Making the point systems compatible would probably result in major changes to all of the loyalty programs.  What you gain .ay not be worth what you give up.

[barjpoe]

5 hours ago, steverk said:

Be careful what you wish for. Making the point systems compatible would probably result in major changes to all of the loyalty programs.  What you gain .ay not be worth what you give up.

ok, 

[skywalk640]

Currently on Liberty of the Seas and at the Captain’s Corner today, Captain Ivo and Hotel Director Gary Davis talked a little about the Discovery Class. Based upon a leadership meeting in January, they were told that the Discovery Class is going to be between the size of Radiance and Voyager class and they’re hoping to launch the first one in 2028, but there’s no other details 

[cruisellama]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:08 AM, twangster said:

It occurs to me that Royal's new status match program could impact project discovery.  

The status match program could be a way to nudge Royal cruisers to sail Celebrity.  Celebrity has smaller ships.  

Royal Caribbean International has a purpose in corporate life.  It is mass market cruising.  That means mega ships carrying mega passengers.  The whole concept of project discovery flies in the face of the mass market cruise segment.

I've always been curious why a mass market mega cruise line would build a smaller ship.   Instead, why not leverage existing smaller ships in the family of cruise lines under the RCG umbrella?

Time will tell.  Maybe the status match is a test to see if Celebrity can fulfill the role of more interesting itineraries to a broader range of ports leaving RCI to be the mega mass market brand in the family. 

I would think (if a smaller ship class is really coming), they would leverage Edge class (sans Magic Carpet).

[steverk]

59 minutes ago, skywalk640 said:

Currently on Liberty of the Seas and at the Captain’s Corner today, Captain Ivo and Hotel Director Gary Davis talked a little about the Discovery Class. Based upon a leadership meeting in January, they were told that the Discovery Class is going to be between the size of Radiance and Voyager class and they’re hoping to launch the first one in 2028, but there’s no other details 

I asked the captain of Radiance today, but he didn't take the bait. No comment.

Someone else asked about the future of Radiance and was told it is open for booking thru April 2026, so no real information there either.

[NRD]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:25 AM, twangster said:

Carnival must be absolutely kicking themselves.  It's only taken ~20 years for them to acknowledge their mistake.  

Back around the turn of the century they decided mega ships would never work.  Around the same time Royal created the concept of Project Genesis now known as Oasis class and then Royal actually built it.  Meanwhile Carnival kept on building medium sized ships and avoided azipods for decades more.

Carnival had a mega ship concept, then cancelled it.  Cute name don't you think?