PVSA impact on B2B2B

[JerryinCDA]

Have been getting conflicting information on the Jones Act (PVSA).  Currently have cruise scheduled to go from Seattle to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Honolulu, and finally Honolulu to Sydney Australia.  Each leg is perfectly fine, but some say the cruise to Vancouver, and then going to Honolulu is in violation.  RCCL has allowed the booking, but still feel a little uncomfortable.  Any ideas, etc?  Thanks

[FionaMG]

I think you're OK because your final destination is not in the US. But if you were only doing the first two legs, that's where you'd fall foul of the act.

@twangster explains it really well. 

[michaelp1446]

Hawaii to Seattle with no foreign stop (Canada) would be a violation. The itinerary as you laid out would not violate the PVSA.

 

[twangster]

You are fine as stated.

It's the end to end cruise assuming you are not changing ships or spending a night in a hotel at any point.

SEA to YVR to HNL to SYD continuously on the same ship is viewed by CBP as SEA to SYD.  That is not a PVSA violation.  You start in the USA and you end in another country.  The PVSA does not come into play in that scenario.  

The final leg to Sydney saves you from violating the PVSA because the final destination is a foreign country from the perspective of US CBP who is responsible for enforcing the PVSA.  

If you cancel the final leg HNL to SYD that would put the first two legs into violation because at that point the end to end cruise would be SEA to HNL, USA to USA.  As long as you don't cancel the leg to Sydney you are fine.

[JerryinCDA]

So I beleive from what I see, is that the pvsa requires a distant foreign port (excludes Vancouver which is not considered distant) then my cruise would not fall undetr the act, as it would be considered one cruise, even though there are 3 separate contiguous reservations.

If however, we disembark in Honolulu, then we would be in violation.

Thanks for the feedback.

The Passenger Vessel Services Act, however,

• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port, provided the ship visits any foreign port;
• does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a distant foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America);^[2]

In accordance with this law, cruise lines that operate foreign-flagged vessels are fined $798 for each passenger who boarded such a vessel in one U.S. port and left the vessel at another port.^[3] The cruise lines typically pass this cost on the passengers who "jump the ship". Exemptions are available in the case of family emergencies etc.^[4

[twangster]

The PVSA like many laws doesn't explicitly explain what is permitted or not, some of the logic has to be worked out.  Even the bullet points above aren't fully explanatory.

In essence the PVSA only comes into play for cruises that transport passengers starting and ending in a US port.  For this there are two types of cruises.

1. A cruise that starts and returns to the same US port sometimes referred to as a closed loop sailing.  For a closed loop cruise the ship merely has to visit any foreign country somewhere on that cruise.  This is the most common type of cruise.
2. A cruise that starts in one US port and ends at different US port.  The so called open jaw sailing.  An open jaw or one-way cruise must include a stop at a distant foreign port.  The concept of distant foreign port is defined in the other bullet point above and the act excludes North America and Central America from being "distant" with the exception of the ABC islands. Note that South America is not excluded so a port in South America is considered distant.  One way Panama Canal cruises stop in Cartagena for this reason as Cartagena is in South America.  Unlike the ABC islands that are mentioned by name in the PVSA or North and Central America that are also named in the PVSA, South America isn't mentioned by name as being excluded so it qualifies as a distant foreign port.

Transatlantic cruises do not involve the PVSA because the start or end is not in the US but another country so the PVSA does not apply.

Puerto Rico is a special case.  Puerto Rico is a named exception written into the law.  Puerto Rico is a US territory so San Juan is a US port but the PR exemption allows a cruise line to sail from the US mainland and end in Puerto Rico (or vice versa) and not violate the PVSA.  This is the only US port to US port itinerary that is excluded from the PVSA (no distant foreign required).

What trips up most people as it relates to the PVSA is that CBP looks at the end to end journey for a particular passenger.  CBP is well aware that a cruise line could easily market a one way cruise as two separate cruises purchased together as a means to get around the PVSA so CBP does not allow this to occur.  They look at the port a passenger initially embarked and the final port where a passenger debarked to define that passenger's ticket.   

For Seattle to Vancouver to Honolulu the port of embarkation and debarkation are both US ports so the PVSA applies and its not allowed.  Same with Seward to Vancouver to Honolulu.  That is also a PVSA violation.  However once a guest tacks on Honolulu to Sydney to either of these example the final port of debarkation is not a US port so the PVSA disappears as the end to end ticket is to another country much like a transatlantic crossing.

 

[ronpes]

On 8/4/2022 at 7:59 PM, twangster said:

You are fine as stated.

It's the end to end cruise assuming you are not changing ships or spending a night in a hotel at any point.

SEA to YVR to HNL to SYD continuously on the same ship is viewed by CBP as SEA to SYD.  That is not a PVSA violation.  You start in the USA and you end in another country.  The PVSA does not come into play in that scenario.  

The final leg to Sydney saves you from violating the PVSA because the final destination is a foreign country from the perspective of US CBP who is responsible for enforcing the PVSA.  

If you cancel the final leg HNL to SYD that would put the first two legs into violation because at that point the end to end cruise would be SEA to HNL, USA to USA.  As long as you don't cancel the leg to Sydney you are fine.

I am also doing these three legs and had concerns when we booked it some time ago so asked my travel agent to confirm. They in turn contacted RCCL and the response from them was exactly as how you have described it. As long as we stay on for all three legs and Sydney is the end port, then we are fine. 

[JerryinCDA]

Talked to RCCL and was informed that the B2B2B was a violation. Even though we are not leaving the ship in Honolulu, it is still a violation.  I reiterated that the fact that final disembarkation is in OZ would not be a violation. Regardless I would have to cancel the first leg (Seattle to Vancouver) or cancel entire trip with a full refund.

looking into a Viking river cruise from Amsterdam to Budapest instead.

 

[JerryinCDA]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:31 PM, ronpes said:

I am also doing these three legs and had concerns when we booked it some time ago so asked my travel agent to confirm. They in turn contacted RCCL and the response from them was exactly as how you have described it. As long as we stay on for all three legs and Sydney is the end port, then we are fine. 

Unfortunately there is confusion in RCCL’s handling of the PVSA. The agent I talked to agreed with me, then he talked to his support and they said it is a violation. Did not want to have any hassle so opted out of the cruise, was really looking for the cruise.  Thanksgiving in Hawaii this year, and Europe next year. Enjoy the cruise.