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UK to ban low wages for ships crews.


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Some may be aware of an ongoing situation in the UK which kicked off a week or so ago.

P&O ferries terminated the contracts of over 800 long serving employee's so they could replace them with crew from countries such as India etc. 

This is not illegal it's what lots of companies including cruiselines do, they have ships registered in places where they can pay low wages. However the UK Government are extremely pissed about it and are now planning on tightening the rules which will mean ships sailing out of UK must pay all crew UK minimum wage. Its hard to see how they can have 1 rule for 1 and another rule for others doing the same which would mean cruiselines sailing from UK having to pay higher wages for crews.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ray said:

Some may be aware of an ongoing situation in the UK which kicked off a week or so ago.

P&O ferries terminated the contracts of over 800 long serving employee's so they could replace them with crew from countries such as India etc. 

This is not illegal it's what lots of companies including cruiselines do, they have ships registered in places where they can pay low wages. However the UK Government are extremely pissed about it and are now planning on tightening the rules which will mean ships sailing out of UK must pay all crew UK minimum wage. Its hard to see how they can have 1 rule for 1 and another rule for others doing the same which would mean cruiselines sailing from UK having to pay higher wages for crews.

 

 

 

 

We have different minimum wages for different employees here in the good old U.S.A.  There's a minimum wage for Restaurant servers, the ones that work for tips.  We also have different rules for overtime as well.  Many workers are not entitled to overtime, period.   

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If the minimum wage is around 18% higher then what they currently pay then this should be no problem. Remove those service charges for passengers and everyone is satisfied.

The question would just be if the mostly American passengers understand that the price didn't go up because the service charge is now included.

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33 minutes ago, ckruetze said:

If the minimum wage is around 18% higher then what they currently pay then this should be no problem. Remove those service charges for passengers and everyone is satisfied.

The question would just be if the mostly American passengers understand that the price didn't go up because the service charge is now included.

Minimum wage is about £9.50 per hour, figures being quoted for Indian crew was about £2 per hour. 

Indian crews have already joined ships, ships have been barred from sailing so are just sitting in various docks under port arrest.

 

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35 minutes ago, danv3 said:

If this applies to cruise lines, cruising from the UK will simply cease to exist.  

This was the statement my minister.

While the UK was a part of the EU, trade rules set by Brussels would have prevented Britain from barring access for companies based on the continent.

In a letter to the P&O chief executive, published today, Mr Shapps warned he was preparring to bring forward a "package of measures" to block the ferry operator's plans.

He wrote: "I will be bringing a comprehensive package of measures to Parliament to ensure that seafarers are protected against these types of actions in the way that Parliament and this Government already intended.

The use of the word seafarers would imply its for all, if its not then they are leaving themselves open for those it hits hardest to appeal against ruling

 

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Also seen a quote specifically mentioning Ferry services, this is on the BBC website

"In a letter, Mr Shapps again urged Peter Hebblethwaite to reverse his decision to sack 800 seafarers.

If not, he said the government's plans to make it illegal for ferry firms to pay less than the minimum wage, would likely force him to do so."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60895833

 

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12 minutes ago, Mike.s said:

Also seen a quote specifically mentioning Ferry services, this is on the BBC website

"In a letter, Mr Shapps again urged Peter Hebblethwaite to reverse his decision to sack 800 seafarers.

If not, he said the government's plans to make it illegal for ferry firms to pay less than the minimum wage, would likely force him to do so."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60895833

 

I saw this also but can he make 1 rule for ferry companies and another for cruiselines doing the same thing? Thats the problem because it could potentially stop cruiselines using UK as a homeport for ships.

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15 minutes ago, Ray said:

I saw this also but can he make 1 rule for ferry companies and another for cruiselines doing the same thing? Thats the problem because it could potentially stop cruiselines using UK as a homeport for ships.

It's not like the UK Government to act without thinking through all the consequences is it? 🙄

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On 3/28/2022 at 2:26 PM, Ray said:

Some may be aware of an ongoing situation in the UK which kicked off a week or so ago.

P&O ferries terminated the contracts of over 800 long serving employee's so they could replace them with crew from countries such as India etc. 

This is not illegal it's what lots of companies including cruiselines do, they have ships registered in places where they can pay low wages. However the UK Government are extremely pissed about it and are now planning on tightening the rules which will mean ships sailing out of UK must pay all crew UK minimum wage. Its hard to see how they can have 1 rule for 1 and another rule for others doing the same which would mean cruiselines sailing from UK having to pay higher wages for crews.

 

 

 

 

Pay the crew, they work hard for the guests to have a great vacation.  The crew have a lot of expenses included with their work, room and board, medical care, meals, etc.  But, this is not a living wage and why I am more than happy to pay gratuities and tip extra while I am at sea.  https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-ship-workers-reveal-how-much-money-they-make-2019-5 

Carnival Corporation, Royal Caribbean Cruises, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings — reported in regulatory filings the following median annual earnings for 2018:

  • Carnival Corporation: $16,622
  • Royal Caribbean Cruises: $19,396
  • Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings: $20,101

"In addition to their salary, crew members typically receive free medical care, room and board, meals, and many other benefits that are often unavailable in their home countries," said a representative for the Cruise Lines International Association, a trade association for the cruise industry. "Crew members are very satisfied with their jobs and the opportunities for career advancement, which explains why employee retention rates in the cruise industry are upwards of 80%."

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I believe we'll see a good deal of additional regulatory requirements levied by many countries that host cruise liners.   Under current economic circumstances (fuel, labor, environmental)  throughout the world, I expect the  industry to experience additional financial burdens that will have to show up in rates.

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On 3/31/2022 at 5:51 PM, DublinFC said:

Pay the crew, they work hard for the guests to have a great vacation.  The crew have a lot of expenses included with their work, room and board, medical care, meals, etc.  But, this is not a living wage and why I am more than happy to pay gratuities and tip extra while I am at sea.  https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-ship-workers-reveal-how-much-money-they-make-2019-5 

Carnival Corporation, Royal Caribbean Cruises, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings — reported in regulatory filings the following median annual earnings for 2018:

  • Carnival Corporation: $16,622
  • Royal Caribbean Cruises: $19,396
  • Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings: $20,101

"In addition to their salary, crew members typically receive free medical care, room and board, meals, and many other benefits that are often unavailable in their home countries," said a representative for the Cruise Lines International Association, a trade association for the cruise industry. "Crew members are very satisfied with their jobs and the opportunities for career advancement, which explains why employee retention rates in the cruise industry are upwards of 80%."

I suppose they could increase their salaries and then charge them for their room and board,food, and medical. 

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When you talk to the crew on Royal Caribbean ships they are quite happy with their jobs and salary when compared to job opportunities and salaries in their home country.   They return year after year and they put several kids through advanced education by doing so which raises their status going forward.  It totally makes months away from home worth it to them.  No one is forcing them to come back but it's quite common to meet crew who have been doing it for more than a decade.  Working during the pandemic and having to wear masks to this day notwithstanding, crew love their jobs.

In the US we have labor and immigrations laws that prevent something like all the employees on the Staten Island ferries (as an example) from being replaced with foreign Indian crew.   The sacking of workers to replace them with a cheaper foreign crew is isn't a domestic wage issue exclusively.   Other laws and international conventions come into play.  

The ship's registry is not a factor into crew wages.  It seems the article was not not well written and drops in unrelated juicy sounding tidbits to pull on the heartstrings of readers.  The UK government knee jerk reaction is equally uneducated and poorly proposed.  UK lawmakers need to do more than read and react to headlines on social media.

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The missus and I did a B2B on Symphony this past September while enjoying the Unlimited Dining Package for those two weeks. Because ship capacity was only around 30%, we had the opportunity to enjoy lengthy conversations with multiple staff members in the specialty restaurants.

Every single one of them said that the employment opportunities with Royal by far and away exceeded anything available to them in their home countries. One Pilipino server told me his alternative was to stay home and toil every day in a literal rice paddy to earn just enough to barely stay alive. For him, working on Symphony was a heaven-sent blessing.

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17 hours ago, JimnKathy said:

The missus and I did a B2B on Symphony this past September while enjoying the Unlimited Dining Package for those two weeks. Because ship capacity was only around 30%, we had the opportunity to enjoy lengthy conversations with multiple staff members in the specialty restaurants.

Every single one of them said that the employment opportunities with Royal by far and away exceeded anything available to them in their home countries. One Pilipino server told me his alternative was to stay home and toil every day in a literal rice paddy to earn just enough to barely stay alive. For him, working on Symphony was a heaven-sent blessing.

100 % agree

I had guys from Nepal, Philippines, India and Pakistan to name a few countries working for me in the middle east and while the wages they got there was low, it was still a lot better than they would have got at home, so yeah they are happy and im sure any foreign worker that PO ferries employ will be also, which is more than can be said for the 800 employees they made redundant to enable the hiring of cheap labour.

And since we are no longer in the EU we can make our own rules 

 

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On 4/3/2022 at 1:23 AM, Pattycruise said:

I suppose they could increase their salaries and then charge them for their room and board,food, and medical. 

Raise their pay and keep the benefits the same.  Cruise fare goes up, to help cover the increased pay for the crew.  

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11 minutes ago, twangster said:

But will the average household that enjoys a $5,000 cruise be able and willing to pay $15,000 for it?   

First I doubt it would go that high.  It could, I don't have the numbers to figure out the ins and outs of what their salaries would need to be to make the cost rise that much.  Second, I am not suggesting raising annual wages to $40K/yr and $50K/yr.  My understanding is that those who are not in the service part of the staff make a good deal more than what I found in that article.  Bring the service staff wages up to a minimum of $20K/yr plus the tips the get each sailing.  Allow for some raises and upward movement still.    

I guess I find it odd that it seems like a bad thing to support the idea of people that work very hard for their money to earn a little more than what they currently do.

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7 minutes ago, DublinFC said:

First I doubt it would go that high.  It could, I don't have the numbers to figure out the ins and outs of what their salaries would need to be to make the cost rise that much.  Second, I am not suggesting raising annual wages to $40K/yr and $50K/yr.  My understanding is that those who are not in the service part of the staff make a good deal more than what I found in that article.  Bring the service staff wages up to a minimum of $20K/yr plus the tips the get each sailing.  Allow for some raises and upward movement still.    

I guess I find it odd that it seems like a bad thing to support the idea of people that work very hard for their money to earn a little more than what they currently do.

Where crew come from, their source countries, dictate what is considered a reasonable wage.  You can't apply UK or US labor and economic ideologies to other countries around the world where the social and economic factors of that country are so wildly different from the US or UK.

Go to the Philippines or India as examples.  What does a day laborer make there?  What is the average income?  What is the poverty line?  Why would you tell another country they have to pay labour rates based on UK or US rates?

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6 minutes ago, twangster said:

Where crew come from, their source countries, dictate what is considered a reasonable wage.  You can't apply UK or US labor and economic ideologies to other countries around the world where the social and economic factors of that country are so wildly different from the US or UK.

Go to the Philippines or India as examples.  What does a day laborer make there?  What is the average income?  What is the poverty line?  Why would you tell another country they have to pay labour rates based on UK or US rates?

I know they are earning more compared to what they would be getting in their home country, but why is it bad to try and raise the standard for the crew that are working on the ship? 

I think trying to add their home country is irrelevant. We are talking about people who are working for companies that work mainly out of the US and UK.  I know they work around the laws of the US and UK by being incorporated in other countries.  

I also know a lot of the crew are very happy and come back contract after contract, I just do not see a problem with raising their pay a little.   Make them happier to come contact after contact.  

I fully understand your thoughts on the subject, I just have a different opinion.  Normally I agree with your thoughts on cruising. 

Going back to what I mentioned when as my first post in this thread.  I am happy to pay the gratuities and tip a little extra.  Do I think I am saving them or some sort of knight in shining armor?  No.  I am just saying thank you for taking care of me and my family while we had an amazing vacation.  

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47 minutes ago, DublinFC said:

I know they are earning more compared to what they would be getting in their home country, but why is it bad to try and raise the standard for the crew that are working on the ship? 

I think trying to add their home country is irrelevant. We are talking about people who are working for companies that work mainly out of the US and UK.  I know they work around the laws of the US and UK by being incorporated in other countries.  

I also know a lot of the crew are very happy and come back contract after contract, I just do not see a problem with raising their pay a little.   Make them happier to come contact after contact.  

I fully understand your thoughts on the subject, I just have a different opinion.  Normally I agree with your thoughts on cruising. 

Going back to what I mentioned when as my first post in this thread.  I am happy to pay the gratuities and tip a little extra.  Do I think I am saving them or some sort of knight in shining armor?  No.  I am just saying thank you for taking care of me and my family while we had an amazing vacation.  

I don't see the need to raise labor expenses just as a nice gesture.  Everyone who is employed anywhere in the world would love a raise.  Raises are earned through hard work but also other criteria.

If crew are dissatisfied with wages they can find other work with a competitor who pays more, if any exist, or on land, if such a job exists.

This applies to anyone who is employed.  I don't understand the concept that just ship crew should warrant a raise.  Plenty of people around the world would argue they warrant a raise too.  If wages are so wrong, crew would not return and new crew would not be drawn to ship life and sign on for their first contract.

Why should outsiders who don't understand the industry parachute in to dictate change? 

I don't like the way P&O ferries handled this but then again I wasn't directly involved and I don't trust the media for reporting it accurately.  Maybe it went down like they said, maybe there is another side to the story.  Either way it's not my government's place or the UK government's place to get involved in international affairs.  If the UK doesn't like foreign crew working on ferries that service the UK they can pass laws like the PVSA (US law) or other immigration laws that might cover such a scenario.  Then a ferry company would have to employ UK residents and at that point the UK government has a standing to dictate wage levels.

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1 hour ago, DublinFC said:

First I doubt it would go that high.  It could, I don't have the numbers to figure out the ins and outs of what their salaries would need to be to make the cost rise that much.  Second, I am not suggesting raising annual wages to $40K/yr and $50K/yr.  My understanding is that those who are not in the service part of the staff make a good deal more than what I found in that article.  Bring the service staff wages up to a minimum of $20K/yr plus the tips the get each sailing.  Allow for some raises and upward movement still.    

I guess I find it odd that it seems like a bad thing to support the idea of people that work very hard for their money to earn a little more than what they currently do.

 

1 hour ago, twangster said:

Where crew come from, their source countries, dictate what is considered a reasonable wage.  You can't apply UK or US labor and economic ideologies to other countries around the world where the social and economic factors of that country are so wildly different from the US or UK.

Go to the Philippines or India as examples.  What does a day laborer make there?  What is the average income?  What is the poverty line?  Why would you tell another country they have to pay labour rates based on UK or US rates?

The average salary for skilled labor in the Philippines is US $5000 annually. India is slightly lower.

 

It is impossible to make this "living wage" argument without a frame of reference. Within this frame of reference, it is easy to see why some many people from these countries sign on for contract after contract, some working a decade or more for the cruise lines.

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22 minutes ago, twangster said:

I don't see the need to raise labor expenses just as a nice gesture.  Everyone who is employed anywhere in the world would love a raise.  Raises are earned through hard work but also other criteria.

If crew are dissatisfied with wages they can find other work with a competitor who pays more, if any exist, or on land, if such a job exists.

This applies to anyone who is employed.  I don't understand the concept that just ship crew should warrant a raise.  Plenty of people around the world would argue they warrant a raise too.  If wages are so wrong, crew would not return and new crew would not be drawn to ship life and sign on for their first contract.

Why should outsiders who don't understand the industry parachute in to dictate change? 

I don't like the way P&O ferries handled this but then again I wasn't directly involved and I don't trust the media for reporting it accurately.  Maybe it went down like they said, maybe there is another side to the story.  Either way it's not my government's place or the UK government's place to get involved in international affairs.  If the UK doesn't like foreign crew working on ferries that service the UK they can pass laws like the PVSA (US law) or other immigration laws that might cover such a scenario.  Then a ferry company would have to employ UK residents and at that point the UK government has a standing to dictate wage levels.

Now you are expanding the issue being discussed.   

Focusing on the crew, its not just a nice gesture.  Providing a raise across the board is something companies do to stay competitive so they can retain their workforce.  Or, to match industry standards.  Or, to recognize the hard work the crew are doing day in and day out.

I never said the wages were so wrong, I just think they could be raised higher. I get the sense you think I am saying all staff should be on $40K/yr, Im not.  Maybe I am reading too much into what you are saying, this is the internet after all.

We can go back and forth all day.  I appreciate your conversation on the matter.  I just do not see a problem with the cruise lines raising wages a little.  You do.  To each their own.  

As for the government forcing it to happen I can agree that they should not be who makes the decision.  I am for way less government involved in pretty much everything. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DublinFC said:

I just think they could be raised higher.

I think everyone in the world should get a 10x raise. Make it easy, just add an extra zero to all wages.
Imagine how happy everyone could be. I wonder why this hasn’t been done worldwide or at least in a few countries?

If implemented, hopefully this will not change the cost or availability of goods in the marketplace or decrease the demand for labor.

I have to apologize, It’s been 15 years since my last MBA course and my memory is fading. 

 

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2 hours ago, AlmondFarmer said:

I think everyone in the world should get a 10x raise. Make it easy, just add an extra zero to all wages.
Imagine how happy everyone could be. I wonder why this hasn’t been done worldwide or at least in a few countries?

If implemented, hopefully this will not change the cost or availability of goods in the marketplace or decrease the demand for labor.

I have to apologize, It’s been 15 years since my last MBA course and my memory is fading. 

 

Doesn't take an MBA to know cost, availability etc. have gone up/become harder in the 15 years your memory has been fading.  Just look at the last 2 years as an example. 

Also, no, everyone in the world does not deserve a 10x raise.  However, those who work for it should be rewarded.  Sit on your ass and do nothing then you are not part of the conversation.  

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2 hours ago, DublinFC said:

Doesn't take an MBA to know cost, availability etc. have gone up/become harder in the 15 years your memory has been fading.  Just look at the last 2 years as an example. 

Also, no, everyone in the world does not deserve a 10x raise.  However, those who work for it should be rewarded.  Sit on your ass and do nothing then you are not part of the conversation.  

You know @AlmondFarmer is just trying to add some humor to this thread, right? At least I think he is. Made me laugh. 

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Based on what I have heard in the news, and living in the UK. I believe the real issue was P&O Ferries did not follow the correct labour laws when making the existing staff redundant. Being made redundant in UK myself years ago, I know there are several legally required steps an employer has to follow. P&O have admitted what they did was unlawful. The government is looking to add extra measures in place that will prevent this from happening again. I believe any new regulations regarding minimum wages will only affect ferry contractors (P&O Ferries operate under a government contract or license for these routes), and NOT the cruise ships. Southampton I would expect to fight any kind of new laws affecting the cruise ship industry negatively, as during the pandemic shutdown, Southampton was reporting losses of £30,000 a day in different local labour markets tied to the Cruise Ship industry. 

This of course is mostly ALL my opinion. I personally would be shocked if the cruise industry in the UK raised prices impacting bookings.

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7 hours ago, twangster said:

If P&O Ferries broke the law they should be punished per normal legal practices for doing so.  

In that case it doesn't sound like there is anything that needs to be fixed unless the penalties they face are not a deterrent for breaking the current law.

There are Employment rules in place in that P&O completey ignored. 

Within hours of making 800 staff redundant they advertised for new staff with no seafaring experience needed ( this breaks all H&S regulations) new staff were employed on low wages however HSE has blocked ships from moving. 

CEO of P&0 has been reported to some board as an unfit person to hold position and it is recommended that he should be removed.

I get what you are saying but lets say a company in US made almost 1000 long serving staff redundant in a half hour zoom call then employed unqualified persons from somewhere in south America the next day for a fraction of the wage. People wouldnt be happy and rightly so however us brits probably wouldnt take much notice because its the other side of the world and doesnt effect us, so what does it matter. 

 

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