B2B Alaska & Hawaii

[Bob Burd]

The wife and I are thinking of doing a B2B to Hawaii and Alaska.  The 5/2/23 leaving from Oahu (Maui, Hawaii, Vancouver) and finishing in Vancouver on Ovation.  Then doing an Alaska cruise on Ovation leaving from Vancouver(Vancouver, Sitka, Juneau, Skagway, Endicott Arm and Dawes glacier, Ketchikan, Seattle) and end up in Seattle.  We live on the East coast and that would kill 2 birds with one stone going to the West Coast.  Would the PVSA law forbid me from doing that kind of B2B? I would not want to book something and then have one part of it canceled. I know #twangster wrote on the blog back in October of 2019 on Hawaii, but I still not sure if I'm allowed to do this B2B.  Thanks for any help.

[KristiZ]

You will have no issues with this plan. The Vancouver part meets the requirements of the PVSA. Sounds like a lovely trip!

[Baked Alaska]

I'm curious. Why do you think this would be a problem? Sounds fantastic! However, I wonder if I am missing something.

[Bob Burd]

9 minutes ago, Baked Alaska said:

I'm curious. Why do you think this would be a problem? Sounds fantastic! However, I wonder if I am missing something.

I've read articles about doing this kind of cruise where its says you can be in violation including the Twangster one.  I saw a comment from the Twangster article where there was a comment from someone where they said Royal canceled one part of their cruise when they were doing a B2B of Alaska/Hawaii.  I would not want that to happen.  I'm a bit OCD as I'm an analyst by trade so I just wanted to check before doing something like this cruise.  

[Done]

Wow!!  Great idea for a B2B cruise.  Wish I had thought of it before we booked our own B2B cruise.

[FionaMG]

Pinging @twangster for you. 

I think the possible issue is that while Royal consider each leg to be a completely separate cruise, from the PSVA point of view what counts is your original start point and your final debarkation point, so in this particular case your journey would be considered a single one from Hawaii to Seattle.

 

[HeWhoWaits]

34 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

Pinging @twangster for you. 

I think the possible issue is that while Royal consider each leg to be a completely separate cruise, from the PSVA point of view what counts is your original start point and your final debarkation point, so in this particular case your journey would be considered a single one from Hawaii to Seattle.

 

As with any B2B, the passenger is disembarking from the ship and checking in again to the same ship. Cruise originating in Hawaii ended in Vancouver. Cruise ending in Seattle departed from Vancouver. No issues with PVSA.

[FionaMG]

This is how Twangster explained it to me on a thread over on CC a couple of years back:

"The PVSA doesn't allow a foreign flagged vessel to transport passengers between two US ports without stopping in a qualifying port of call.  Honolulu and Seattle are US ports.  There are no qualifying ports to satisfy the PVSA on the itinerary. 

CBP looks at the overall trip from embarkation at the origin to disembarkation at the final destination.  Sydney to Honolulu to Vancouver to Seattle is viewed by CBP as simply being Sydney to Seattle as the origin and final destination.  This doesn't violate the PVSA because the overall journey is not between two US ports.

If I disembark Ovation in Honolulu that completes that trip.  CBP views that as Sydney to Honolulu and that doesn't violate the PVSA because Sydney is not a US port. 

If I board Quantum in Honolulu the very next day that is my new origin city. CBP doesn't allow me to claim Sydney as my origin because I disembarked a different ship on a different day.  This becomes no different compare to anyone else boarding the ship in Honolulu.  Everyone boarding the ship in Honolulu can not complete their trip at a US port.  Everyone boarding in Honolulu has to disembark in Vancouver (Canada).  They cannot stay on the ship as it repositions to Seattle because that would violate the PVSA.

Sydney to Honolulu to Vancouver to Seattle = Okay (does not start and end at US ports)

Honolulu to Vancouver to Seattle = Not Okay (starts and ends at US ports)

Honolulu to Vancouver = Okay (does not start and end at US ports)"

So the second of these scenarios seems to be the same as what @Bob Burd and his wife want to do. 

Hope Twangster will see this and chime in with his wisdom.

[HeWhoWaits]

13 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

stopping in a qualifying port of call.

Stopping in Vancouver (with or without getting off the ship) meets the requirement. 

Cruises that depart from a US port and conclude in a US port (same one OR different ones) must make a stop somewhere outside the US. That is all that is required.

[twangster]

1 hour ago, HeWhoWaits said:

Stopping in Vancouver (with or without getting off the ship) meets the requirement. 

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA.   

3 hours ago, Bob Burd said:

The wife and I are thinking of doing a B2B to Hawaii and Alaska.  The 5/2/23 leaving from Oahu (Maui, Hawaii, Vancouver) and finishing in Vancouver on Ovation.  Then doing an Alaska cruise on Ovation leaving from Vancouver(Vancouver, Sitka, Juneau, Skagway, Endicott Arm and Dawes glacier, Ketchikan, Seattle) and end up in Seattle. 

Unfortunately this violates the PVSA and even if you try to game the system or book it as two different cruises they will eventually figure it out and you'll have to give up one or the other.

As an alternative you could look at a night(s) in a hotel in between and moving to another ship either from Vancouver or taking the train down to Seattle for an Alaska cruise.

If you board in Australia it wouldn't evade the PVSA as the final journey is Sydney to Seattle but that's a long time on a ship.

[Bob Burd]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA.   

Unfortunately this violates the PVSA and even if you try to game the system or book it as two different cruises they will eventually figure it out and you'll have to give up one or the other.

As an alternative you could look at a night(s) in a hotel in between and moving to another ship either from Vancouver or taking the train down to Seattle for an Alaska cruise.

If you board in Australia it wouldn't evade the PVSA as the final journey is Sydney to Seattle but that's a long time on a ship.

Twangster.   Thanks for the reply even though I don't like the answer!! lol.   I was hoping since you have to completely get off the ship on a B2B, that it might be ok. So the issue is leaving from one US port and ending in another US port?  I was hoping that since there is a stop in a foreign port in the middle it would be ok.  Now you are going to make me look at Sydney!!  Thanks once again for the answer and all the answers you provide for people. 

[Kathleen]

@Bob Burd if you do as @twangstersuggested and stay in Vancouver overnight you could board Radiance the next day Northbound and end in Seward and fly home out of Anchorage. It’s a similar itinerary with Hubbard glacier as a bonus. I just realized you were talking about 2023 and not 2022. 

[Bob Burd]

11 minutes ago, Kathleen said:

@Bob Burd if you do as @twangstersuggested and stay in Vancouver overnight you could board Radiance the next day Northbound and end in Seward and fly home out of Anchorage. It’s a similar itinerary with Hubbard glacier as a bonus. I just realized you were talking about 2023 and not 2022. 

Thanks!! I'll take a look.

[Vancity Cruiser]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA

Nearly every cruise from Florida is round trip (originates in US city and terminates in US city). The international stops satisfies PSVA. How does stopping in Vancouver not satisfy the requirement

[KristiZ]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA.   

Unfortunately this violates the PVSA and even if you try to game the system or book it as two different cruises they will eventually figure it out and you'll have to give up one or the other.

As an alternative you could look at a night(s) in a hotel in between and moving to another ship either from Vancouver or taking the train down to Seattle for an Alaska cruise.

If you board in Australia it wouldn't evade the PVSA as the final journey is Sydney to Seattle but that's a long time on a ship.

Learn something new every day.  Thank you!

[twangster]

57 minutes ago, Vancity Cruiser said:

Nearly every cruise from Florida is round trip (originates in US city and terminates in US city). The international stops satisfies PSVA. How does stopping in Vancouver not satisfy the requirement

The cruises you are referring to from Florida start and end in the same US city.  They are round trip.  Round trip cruises that start and end in the same US city only need a stop in a foreign country to satisfy the PVSA.

A cruise from Hawaii to Vancouver is not a round trip cruise.   Different rules apply.

A cruise that starts or ends in a foreign country is not subject to the PVSA.  Honolulu to Vancouver ends in a foreign country so the PVSA is not in effect.  There is no issue with a cruise from Honolulu to Vancouver.  

CBP looks at the end to end trip a traveler is performing.  Honolulu to Vancouver to Seattle is entirely different from Honolulu to Vancouver.  In the eyes of CBP Honolulu to Vancouver to Seattle is effectively Honolulu to Seattle.  That is one US city to a different US city and only US flagged ships that are certified to service coastwise routes can operate that route.

When a cruise starts in one US city and ends in a different US city (with the exception of Puerto Rico) that is not a round trip cruise.   Different rules apply.

[twangster]

4 hours ago, Bob Burd said:

Twangster.   Thanks for the reply even though I don't like the answer!! lol.   I was hoping since you have to completely get off the ship on a B2B, that it might be ok. So the issue is leaving from one US port and ending in another US port?  I was hoping that since there is a stop in a foreign port in the middle it would be ok.  Now you are going to make me look at Sydney!!  Thanks once again for the answer and all the answers you provide for people. 

The rules are designed to address the concept of cabotage.  It's easier to understand when you think about airlines.

Air Canada can fly passengers from Canada to any US city and back to Canada.  What Air Canada cannot do is pick up passengers in one US city and transport them to a different US city.  That would compete with the US airlines.

Likewise American Airlines can't transport passengers between Canadian cities.  They can fly passengers from the US to Canada and vice versa but they can't transport passengers between Canadian cities.  

These matters are the subject of international agreements that govern airlines.

A Canadian airline can't fly passengers from Seattle to Calgary, tell everyone to get off the plane for an hour and then reboard everyone to fly them to NYC.  The end to end journey would be Seattle to NYC and that is a violation of cabotage laws.  

There are different international treaties in effect for ships but the concept of cabotage is the same.  A foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers between different US cities.  

[twangster]

The PVSA does allow a specific one-way cruise to occur between different US cities if very specific stops are made. 

The itinerary must a stop somewhere in the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao) or it must stop in a country other than Central and North America.  Columbia in South America for example is often used to make Panama Canal cruises legal with respect to the PVSA.  The PVSA specifically names the ABC islands as a means to satisfy the PVSA.

When Oasis repositions from Florida to NYC it goes empty because it has to, unless it added the ABC islands onto the itinerary but that is a very long way to go from Florida to NYC so Royal goes empty instead - no passengers, only ship crew.

[twangster]

Allure had a very nice cruise from Florida to Galveston that stopped in the ABC islands.  Wanna guess why it stopped in the ABC islands?  The PVSA.

Recently Royal cancelled it and decided to sail empty taking just 3 days with no guests instead of 8 days VIA the ABC islands.  So Allure will do a "dead head repo" cruise with no guests just to get from Florida to Texas early and begin roundtrip revenue cruises ASAP.  

Why they chose not to go VIA the ABC islands is anyone's guess but I assumed sales were low so it didn't make sense to repo as a revenue cruise going all that way.  Would have been cool... Oasis class in the ABC islands isn't something you'll see very often.  

[Plumlee2028]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

Allure had a very nice cruise from Florida to Galveston that stopped in the ABC islands.  Wanna guess why it stopped in the ABC islands?  The PVSA.

Recently Royal cancelled it and decided to sail empty taking just 3 days with no guests instead of 8 days VIA the ABC islands.  So Allure will do a "dead head repo" cruise with no guests just to get from Florida to Texas early and begin roundtrip revenue cruises ASAP.  

Why they chose not to go VIA the ABC islands is anyone's guess but I assumed sales were low so it didn't make sense to repo as a revenue cruise going all that way.  Would have been cool... Oasis class in the ABC islands isn't something you'll see very often.  

Interesting. Allure is doing curaçao and aruba this summer from FLL several times, im trying one out in may.  Your explanation cleared up some celebrity summit repos i saw from Miami to New Jersey. I thought it was odd, but makes sense now. 

[HeWhoWaits]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:59 PM, twangster said:

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA.   

 

Why doesn't a STOP (visit) in Vancouver meet the requirement of a visit to a foreign port? If it doesn't, then boarding in Florida, stopping at Coco Cay, and returning to Florida shouldn't count either. Vancouver is just as foreign as Coco Cay.

Or does the requirement only apply when a ship departs and arrives at different ports?

[Bob Burd]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:59 PM, twangster said:

No it doesn't.

CBP looks at the overall journey.  The port where you embark the ship and the port where you finally debark the ship.  

They have determined that an intermediary stop evades the intent of the PVSA.  Otherwise all carriers would do this, just split a trip between two US cities into two cruises and evade the PVSA.   

Unfortunately this violates the PVSA and even if you try to game the system or book it as two different cruises they will eventually figure it out and you'll have to give up one or the other.

As an alternative you could look at a night(s) in a hotel in between and moving to another ship either from Vancouver or taking the train down to Seattle for an Alaska cruise.

If you board in Australia it wouldn't evade the PVSA as the final journey is Sydney to Seattle but that's a long time on a ship.

@twangster thanks again for all the examples. The airline one is a good one.  But I do have another 2 examples below.  

Does this example satisfy the PVSA.  I take a cruise on Ovation from Hawaii (5/2) to Vancouver (5/11).  I disembark Ovation and I  get on Radiance on 5/11 in Vancouver and this is a roundtrip back to Vancouver.   I believe I'm good.

I also could switch the ships and do this.  Leave Hawaii on Radiance on April 30th and get in Vancouver (5/11).  Disembark and then get on Ovation (5/11) which ends in Seattle like my original question(but 2 ships).  The full trip is Hawaii to Seattle which is one American city to another, but do I get past the rules since I'm going on another ship? If it's no good, does going on another cruise line on one leg get past it? Thanks for the input.

[twangster]

1 hour ago, Bob Burd said:

@twangster thanks again for all the examples. The airline one is a good one.  But I do have another 2 examples below.  

Does this example satisfy the PVSA.  I take a cruise on Ovation from Hawaii (5/2) to Vancouver (5/11).  I disembark Ovation and I  get on Radiance on 5/11 in Vancouver and this is a roundtrip back to Vancouver.   I believe I'm good.

I also could switch the ships and do this.  Leave Hawaii on Radiance on April 30th and get in Vancouver (5/11).  Disembark and then get on Ovation (5/11) which ends in Seattle like my original question(but 2 ships).  The full trip is Hawaii to Seattle which is one American city to another, but do I get past the rules since I'm going on another ship? If it's no good, does going on another cruise line on one leg get past it? Thanks for the input.

The first example is Honolulu to Vancouver so the PVSA is satisfied.  

I'd call Royal or your travel agent and it get straight from the source for the second option.  I think a change in ships is okay but I've also heard reference to a night in a hotel breaking the link between two cruises.  It's a fine nuance that I haven't tested myself so I don't want to steer you wrong.

 

[Joel]

I am curious what you decided to do. 

I was ready to book Seattle to Vancouver b2b with Vancouver to Honolulu (basically the opposite of you) in the fall of 2023. I call RCI and two employees have told me that it is not a problem. But everything that I am reading is saying that it IS a problem. 

We just did a Florida to LA cruise, but it had a stopover in Cartegena (a foreign distant port) which apparently satisfies that law. 

[SpicyCherry]

I’m not sure what is involved with PVSA or anything but all I know is while on Symphony last year I was all excited about doing a B2B on Ovation, first leg to Alaska the on to Hawaii….had my eye on the same cabin and everything. Went to Next Cruises to book and she promptly told me NO, that it violated some law. I was very disappointed. Don’t know if things have changed in any way but @Bob Burd, I would check, double-check and triple-check, then check a couple more times before booking. If it can be done, go for it because it seems like it would be an amazing B2B!! 

[Bob Burd]

We ended up not doing the cruise. But in the future I would like to do it.  Or we might just do two separate cruises in different years.

[Skatemom2002]

Does anyone know if you can cruise on the same ship from Vancouver to Oahu, and then stay on to go to Sydney, Australia?  Does it break any laws?  I actually had a RC agent book the Alaska/Hawaii b2b for me - and then got an email telling me it was illegal   

[FionaMG]

21 minutes ago, Skatemom2002 said:

Does anyone know if you can cruise on the same ship from Vancouver to Oahu, and then stay on to go to Sydney, Australia?  Does it break any laws?  I actually had a RC agent book the Alaska/Hawaii b2b for me - and then got an email telling me it was illegal   

Going straight through from Vancouver to Sydney does not contravene the PVSA, since neither is in the US.

Alaska/Hawaii would have done, since you would have been travelling between two US ports.