Carnival

[spursfreak21]

11 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

We agree to disagree on personal responsibility, to me if you have chosen to get vaccinated you are basically bulletproof ... go ahead about your business and dont worry about what others are or are not doing.

Matt - no more comments from me since we are heading off course.

I think we’re not too far off from being on same page here. I guess the only caveat for me is that I have small kids who can’t get vaccinated yet. Once the vaccine is approved for all then I’m more likely to be more comfortable ignoring what others are or aren’t doing.  Thanks for the dialogue - it’s still possible to have a good dialogue even if you don’t 100% agree!! 

back to cruise talk!

I’m hoping royals protocols continue to work and we don’t see widespread cases on royal ships. My wife and I are booked to sail on Independence at the end of September and each time these headlines come out our families (who are going to be sitting our kids if we go) give us a hard time.  Fingers crossed!!
 

 

[UNCFanatik]

38 minutes ago, spursfreak21 said:

Because there’s steps that we all can take to help slow the spread that a lot of people aren’t doing. Mask up and get vaccinated the two biggest. The “personal responsibility “ line we hear Governors tout makes no sense. To use Matt’s car analogy that’s like removing the law that seatbelts are required and just letting everyone use their own “personal responsibility “ to use seatbelts. 
So I believe we can all do things to help stop the spread and put a end to this. But I’m not all for “anything goes” and those who don’t like that can stay home. 

It IS about personal responsibility though. I am confused when you say that people should get vaccinated and mask up and then you say when governors tout "personal responsibility" it makes no sense. You are advocating for personal responsibility by saying people should mask up and then its not OK when governors say it? 

And yet, there are people everyday that dont use seatbelts regardless of the law. 

The cruise lines making people wear masks is pure theater unless they moved to enforcing passengers to wear N95 masks. Especially requiring vaccinated guests wear masks. Guess what? people are still getting Covid on cruise ships even wearing masks. 

I hope, once the delta variant wanes, the Cruise Lines will drop the masking requirement. I would hate to see masking become a permanent thing on cruises. I am all for EFFECTIVE and SANE mitigation methods for ALL kind of illnesses on cruise ships (guess what?? Covid isnt the only contagious illness you can catch on a cruise ship!) but I am not for security/medical theater just to please the panic/fear stricken, unscientific CDC. 

 

 

[spursfreak21]

I can tout personal responsibility all I want but no one has to listen to me. I don’t have any authority. 
If you get caught not wearing a seatbelt you get a ticket. The government doesn’t say “we’ll that’s your right”. 
Bottom line: the more people who get vaccinated the sooner we can say good riddance to masks. 

[UNCFanatik]

19 minutes ago, spursfreak21 said:

I can tout personal responsibility all I want but no one has to listen to me. I don’t have any authority. 
If you get caught not wearing a seatbelt you get a ticket. The government doesn’t say “we’ll that’s your right”. 
Bottom line: the more people who get vaccinated the sooner we can say good riddance to masks. 

If I am personally responsible and have been vaccinated, why should I have to wear a mask? Why are masks required on fully vaccinated cruise ships now? All people are vaccinated on a ship but we cant say good riddance to masks? 

All because of an inept CDC

 

[Matt]

33 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

Why are masks required on fully vaccinated cruise ships now? All people are vaccinated on a ship but we cant say good riddance to masks? 

As you know, Royal ships aren't fully vaccinated, and neither is Carnival.

As for why, it's a combination of the delta variant concern generated by a lot of media coverage about it, CDC policy changes, and I really think cruise lines are not necessarily fighting the protocol. After all, Royal was requiring masks on ships for vaccinated on all ships except for Adventure (until just recently).

[UNCFanatik]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

As you know, Royal ships aren't fully vaccinated, and neither is Carnival.

As for why, it's a combination of the delta variant concern generated by a lot of media coverage about it, CDC policy changes, and I really think cruise lines are not necessarily fighting the protocol. After all, Royal was requiring masks on ships for vaccinated on all ships except for Adventure (until just recently).

Yes, I understand the overblown fear climate we are in now. As stated, I am just hoping the cruise lines will drop mask use for vaccinated after the Delta variant wanes and definitely after the end of the current CSO on October 31st. 

[smokeybandit]

NCL at 100% vax currently has no mask mandate, at least according to their website.

[twangster]

13 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

NCL at 100% vax currently has no mask mandate, at least according to their website.

That's what Carnival said so I booked it.   Then a week after their first cruises they implemented a mask mandate.   

I'm fairly certain the same will happen if I book NCL.  

Don't book based on protocols, they change daily in some cases.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, UNCFanatik said:

I am just hoping the cruise lines will drop mask use for vaccinated after the Delta variant wanes and definitely after the end of the current CSO on October 31st. 

Me too

[PG Cruiser]

2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

I am just hoping the cruise lines will drop mask use for vaccinated

I’m going the other way on this one.  The Asian in me has gotten used to wearing masks for every epidemic that has showed up in recent years—swine flu, avian flu, H1N1, SARS, etc. I’ll probably be wearing a mask for a while whenever in a public setting.  I’d respect those who don’t like to wear masks and I hope my choice to wear one is also respected.

[PG Cruiser]

10 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

[UNCFanatik]

13 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

I’m going the other way on this one.  The Asian in me has gotten used to wearing masks for every epidemic that has showed up in recent years—swine flu, avian flu, H1N1, SARS, etc. I’ll probably be wearing a mask for a while whenever in a public setting.  I’d respect those who don’t like to wear masks and I hope my choice to wear one is also respected.

I respect peoples choices. If you feel that you need to wear a mask for any reason, no disrespect from me and it wouldnt warrant a second look from me. But if you cut in line in front of me at the Windjammer, its on!!!!....lol

[jticarruthers]

40 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

I’m going the other way on this one.  The Asian in me has gotten used to wearing masks for every epidemic that has showed up in recent years—swine flu, avian flu, H1N1, SARS, etc. I’ll probably be wearing a mask for a while whenever in a public setting.  I’d respect those who don’t like to wear masks and I hope my choice to wear one is also respected.

I have no issue with anyone that wants to wear a mask. My personal belief that its largely theater doesnt mean that you dont have the right to wear one undisturbed and if you are right and its effective, good for you.

[Ampurp85]

@twangsterDo you know at what capacity the Mardi Gras will be sailing? 

That whole trying to maintain the 95% threshold is insane. I bet they over booked just in case people were going to cancel. That means that there are people who will not know if they are cruising until actual sailing time. 

I just want to also say we do a ton of theater, everywhere is a stage. I have seen people slather on sunscreen, thickly and then get in the water......if you don't rub it in it is not effective. Getting vax doesn't not make you bulletproof, even bulletproof vest can cause harm. I hate wearing mask but I don't think it redundant as vax people can still get the virus. If it was 100% vax and negative covid test; I could see being upset at mask. But vax and unvax alike can have covid and not know, so take precautions. Chicago had Lalapooloza a few weeks ago, it was vax or negative test only. Yet already there are 230+ cases and that's just a small percentage of people tested. I think as far as CCL goes they will have a tough go of it for a while, RCG seems to have found a sweet spot regardless of how things are changing on the daily.

[smokeybandit]

I thought I saw Carnival was at 75%

[Vancity Cruiser]

I don’t feel Carnival is doing enough. I know they are doing the 95% vax thing but they are at double capacity of any other cruise line currently sailing, and the real head shaker for me, the only line still doing self serve buffet.

[smokeybandit]

NCL claims a self-serve buffet

[UNCFanatik]

I would be more concerned about capacity than the buffet. Covid isn’t spread at self service buffets. Now, people are gross at buffets so there’s that reason… lol

[twangster]

When Mardi Gras first launched they had FB vidoes telling people "Masks are required to check in but...as soon as you step one foot on the ship rip off that mask!".

While the ship may be at 75%  capacity, no venues have any limits.  So if all 4,000 guests want to be in the comedy club, it's going to be packed, and mostly maskless unless guests voluntarily choose to follow the "recommendation" to wear a mask. 

I'll probably still go mostly because Mardi Gras will never see only 4,000 guests ever in the ships life beyond 2021.

   

 

[MrMarc]

6 hours ago, Vancity Cruiser said:

I don’t feel Carnival is doing enough. I know they are doing the 95% vax thing but they are at double capacity of any other cruise line currently sailing, and the real head shaker for me, the only line still doing self serve buffet.

Because crew serving the buffet really is theater.   Surface transfer of COVID really is not a threat.  The only advantage would be speeding up the line.  

[PG Cruiser]

1 hour ago, MrMarc said:

Because crew serving the buffet really is theater.   Surface transfer of COVID really is not a threat.  The only advantage would be speeding up the line.  

With the COVID, surface transfer is minimal, but with the norovirus, it’s another story.  Full service buffets is a welcome addition for me.  Helps deter food waste too.

[mjb1127]

Last night, I watched the youtubers JJ Cruise who said they wouldn't sail Carnival again for the time being because they felt unsafe.

[twangster]

8 hours ago, MrMarc said:

Because crew serving the buffet really is theater.   Surface transfer of COVID really is not a threat.  The only advantage would be speeding up the line.  

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/non-us-settings/sop-triage-prevent-transmission.html#:~:text=The main route of transmission,%2C mouth and eyes.

The main route of transmission of COVID-19 is through respiratory droplets generated when an infected person coughs or sneezes. Any person who is in close contact with someone who has respiratory symptoms (e.g., sneezing, coughing, etc.) is at risk of being exposed to potentially infective respiratory droplets. Droplets may also land on surfaces where the virus could remain viable for several hours to days. Transmission through contact of hands with contaminated surfaces can occur following contact with the person’s mucosa such as nose, mouth and eyes.

[smokeybandit]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/non-us-settings/sop-triage-prevent-transmission.html#:~:text=The main route of transmission,%2C mouth and eyes.

The main route of transmission of COVID-19 is through respiratory droplets generated when an infected person coughs or sneezes. Any person who is in close contact with someone who has respiratory symptoms (e.g., sneezing, coughing, etc.) is at risk of being exposed to potentially infective respiratory droplets. Droplets may also land on surfaces where the virus could remain viable for several hours to days. Transmission through contact of hands with contaminated surfaces can occur following contact with the person’s mucosa such as nose, mouth and eyes.

That's outdated though. While possible, studies have shown it's highly unlikely.

[BrianB]

I’ve always been a bit of a prude when it comes to keeping my hands clean. I have been through enough Noro cruises to take as many precautions as possible. It annoys me when I see others using the restroom and just walking out without washing their hands…especially guys coming out of stalls! Or those who just make a show of quickly splashing water on their hands and wiping them (sometimes on their clothes). I see this a lot going into the buffet. After trying to bluff their way past the crew member guarding the entrance (Oh! But I just washed my hands a minute ago!…) they give the obligatory splash and wipe. Or let their kiddies do the same. Also, I would definitely not recommend this but a ship’s captain once told me (and I agree) to never touch a bannister or hallway railing. Just be ready to grab on if you stumble. Use your knuckle for elevator buttons, always try to keep your hands away from your face and always use the antibacterial dispensers. Not to mention using hydrogen peroxide cleaning wipes to wipe down my cabin (regular antibacterial wipes do not kill Noro…another reason to wash my hands)…but I digress.

[barbeyg]

To add to @BrianB, when I dry my hands in the public restroom (on land and ship), I take the paper towel with me, and use that for contact with doors, handrails, etc.  Just drop it in the garbage when I get where I'm going. 

We love sailing in December, when the flu and Noro are usually hanging around.   We have had Noro once, and once is more than enough for both of us.  

[MrMarc]

7 hours ago, mjb1127 said:

Last night, I watched the youtubers JJ Cruise who said they wouldn't sail Carnival again for the time being because they felt unsafe.

For every on that says that, you can find the exact opposite.  It's really a personal decision.  I think it should take 2 things into account.  First, are you willing to follow whatever the rules are, whether you agree with them or not.  Then determine if you feel safe or comfortable.  If the answer to the first one is no, do everyone a favor and please put your cruise off, the rest of us really don't want to deal with the health issues or bad situations that this can cause.

[MrMarc]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:13 AM, UNCFanatik said:

If I am personally responsible and have been vaccinated, why should I have to wear a mask? Why are masks required on fully vaccinated cruise ships now? All people are vaccinated on a ship but we cant say good riddance to masks? 

All because of an inept CDC

 

No, it is because of inept people not getting vaccinated, wearing masks and social distancing.  Masks and social distancing are not theater, they reduce the spread of the virus.  The only disagreement is to what extent, and we really don't know.  Assume it is 10%(to pick a very low number)  on a cruise of 4000.  That's 400 people.  If you are saying it is not worth that, then I totally disagree.

[UNCFanatik]

18 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

No, it is because of inept people not getting vaccinated, wearing masks and social distancing.  Masks and social distancing are not theater, they reduce the spread of the virus.  The only disagreement is to what extent, and we really don't know.  Assume it is 10%(to pick a very low number)  on a cruise of 4000.  That's 400 people.  If you are saying it is not worth that, then I totally disagree.

Is this really your final answer you want to stick with? People not getting vaccinated are inept? You need to check vaccination stats of all people groups in this country and then realize how you sound. 

I would go so far to say that masks can be counter productive because they have given people a false sense of security and they dont practice social distancing or think they can be in a crowded indoor space and be protected when in reality that cloth mask allows in aerosolized particles or they are too "inept" to properly wear a mask over their eyes AND nose (we wont mention how you can get Covid through your eyes as well) especially now with the more transmissible Delta variant. Cloth Masks are theater. Social Distancing is not when one is unvaccinated. 

I would agree with your stance but then we would both be wrong. 

back to cruising. I understand why the Cruise Lines are requiring indoor masking right now even with the vaccinated. Optics and the CDC. But what is the logic in wearing a mask to the main dining room and then removing it for 2 hours with 100s of people in the dining room. Why even wear a mask to your table? 

  

[JeffB]

1 hour ago, MrMarc said:

Masks and social distancing are not theater, they reduce the spread of the virus

As in all COVID mitigation measures, considering benefit is frequently ignored on the assumption that doing something is better than doing nothing (the optics) ..... and in many cases the cost of a given measure is also ignored. Masks don't cost much other than being an inconvenience, but that's not the issue for me.

There is only limited evidence that masks actually produce meaningful PH benefit. That position is debateable but I don't wish to debate it. Moving on from that is the larger issue of governments telling us what to do and not do. Right, the feds via the CDC aren't mandating masks or are they?

Carnival is mandating masks, a lawful action, undertaken by a business to create a safe environment for employees and patrons. Do they really want to do this? I doubt it. Does carnival need to add additional layers of protection for a fully vaccinated vessel when it is already unpopular among the folks and might, just might reduce bookings? I doubt that it really needs to do that.

Even considering the specious argument that they are effective in preventing the spread of SARS2, Carnival is being coerced by the threat of civil liability to mandate them. That is because the CDC - an agency with zero credibility at the moment - is "recommending" them. 

I have a problem with this, not on the basis of the argument that masks work or don't work, although that they don't in the case of SARS2 is a viable hypothesis, but rather on the basis that an executive agent of the federal government is, for all intent and purpose, telling Carnival their guests have to mask.

I think we've already seen what two courts think about government telling us what to do - overreaching their Congressionally authorized authority -  under the guise of a PHE.     

 

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, JeffB said:

As in all COVID mitigation measures, considering benefit is frequently ignored on the assumption that doing something is better than doing nothing (the optics) ..... and in many cases the cost of a given measure is also ignored. Masks don't cost much other than being an inconvenience, but that's not the issue for me.

There is only limited evidence that masks actually produce meaningful PH benefit. That position is debateable but I don't wish to debate it. Moving on from that is the larger issue of governments telling us what to do and not do. Right, the feds via the CDC aren't mandating masks or are they?

Carnival is mandating masks, a lawful action, undertaken by a business to create a safe environment for employees and patrons. Do they really want to do this? I doubt it. Does carnival need to add additional layers of protection for a fully vaccinated vessel when it is already unpopular among the folks and might, just might reduce bookings? I doubt that it really needs to do that.

Even considering the specious argument that they are effective in preventing the spread of SARS2, Carnival is being coerced by the threat of civil liability to mandate them. That is because the CDC - an agency with zero credibility at the moment - is "recommending" them. 

I have a problem with this, not on the basis of the argument that masks work or don't work, although that they don't in the case of SARS2 is a viable hypothesis, but rather on the basis that an executive agent of the federal government is, for all intent and purpose, telling Carnival their guests have to mask.

I think we've already seen what two courts think about government telling us what to do - overreaching their Congressionally authorized authority -  under the guise of a PHE.     

 

I am not going to get in this debate, suffice it to say I disagree with you on almost every level, but let's just cruise with whatever rules they set for whatever reason they set them.  Their company, their rules, their reasoning.

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, UNCFanatik said:

Is this really your final answer you want to stick with? People not getting vaccinated are inept? You need to check vaccination stats of all people groups in this country and then realize how you sound. 

I would go so far to say that masks can be counter productive because they have given people a false sense of security and they dont practice social distancing or think they can be in a crowded indoor space and be protected when in reality that cloth mask allows in aerosolized particles or they are too "inept" to properly wear a mask over their eyes AND nose (we wont mention how you can get Covid through your eyes as well) especially now with the more transmissible Delta variant. Cloth Masks are theater. Social Distancing is not when one is unvaccinated. 

I would agree with your stance but then we would both be wrong. 

back to cruising. I understand why the Cruise Lines are requiring indoor masking right now even with the vaccinated. Optics and the CDC. But what is the logic in wearing a mask to the main dining room and then removing it for 2 hours with 100s of people in the dining room. Why even wear a mask to your table? 

  

Yes, that is my final answer.  I know how I sound, and I know how both anti-vax and let people do whatever they want sound.  I also know the results.  But, again, i am not going to debate it.  You can think whatever you like of me and my ideas, I am beyond caring. 

[mjb1127]

On 8/17/2021 at 2:02 PM, MrMarc said:

For every on that says that, you can find the exact opposite.  It's really a personal decision.  I think it should take 2 things into account.  First, are you willing to follow whatever the rules are, whether you agree with them or not.  Then determine if you feel safe or comfortable.  If the answer to the first one is no, do everyone a favor and please put your cruise off, the rest of us really don't want to deal with the health issues or bad situations that this can cause.

It is the lack of cruise protocols that is disturbing on Carnival.  Royal is being much more careful with crowds not to mention buffets.  I am not sailing until 2022 and it is not on Carnival.

[twangster]

In Carnival's defense their approach was a minimum of 95% vaccinated on board.  In practice they are sailing with 96-97% vaccinated.  The 2-3% unvaccinated are almost exclusively children.

Royal had no idea how many vaccinated versus unvaccinated would be on board.  That is largely thanks to the state of Florida who created laws that prevented Royal from knowing with certainty how many vaccinated would be on board any given sailing.  As a result Royal had little choice but to develop a protocol intensive methodology.  

Months ago as Carnival was developing their approach it seemed reasonable for what was known many months ago.  Nearly everyone is vaccinated, the rest by a large margin are children.  At the time there was a lot of evidence to support their thinking and a lot of people even on this user forum echoed that thinking.

Fast forward to today.  Turns out all those people who argued children are not at risk were wrong.  Turns out there are breakthrough cases with vaccinated.  Turns out Delta is very easily spread.  

In hindsight we know all that now.  

Carnival has since adjusted their protocols.  Everyone must be tested to board.  Masks are becoming a thing.  

Those revised protocols went into effect just a few weeks after they restarted cruises, literally last week.  It will take time to see the results.

It's always easy to look back and with hindsight declare absolutely everything we know now.   

Royal guessed right, partly because Florida forced them into that corner. 

Carnival guessed wrong.  As did a number of users on cruise forums who have stated as fact things we now know to be wrong.

Look at me defending the whale tail. 

BTW - NCL will be sailing with 100% vaccinated.   Carnival's 96-97% vaccinated is pretty close to that yet Carnival learned a lesson.  NCL is still touting virtually no protocols on board. 

Wanna place bets what happens when NCL starts sailing?

[JeffB]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

Wanna place bets

NCL, without protocols and 100% vaxed, will have about the same number of on-board positive COVID cases as the lines that have them. 

Right now the infection rate is exceedingly low in all Vax, masking circumstances based on what we're hearing publicly. I'm aboard Equinox, day 19, of a B3B. We're sailing at 98% vaxed. No masks.  We've had 4 COVID positive cases among around 4000 guests total on all 3 sailings - a small number are B2B'ers. That's a 0.01% rate of infection.  These were cases that "reported" (I'll get to why I used quotes in a moment) to medical with symptoms. Each time some six close contacts were identified, quarantined, expeditiously tested negative within 1 hour and released. Yesterday on departure from St. Croix, USVGI the captain announced the first fully vaxed COVID positive. An adult. All the rest were kids under 12 with minor cold symptoms that were not eligible for vaccination. All of them were immediately removed from the ship per protocol. The fully vaccinated case was on day 5 and must have presented a negative antigen test to board. I assume he did not contract COVID aboard but rather in route while infection was incubating at the antigen test.

On "reported".......We learned from an on-board shop employee, the liquor store, that crew are not to remind passengers to wear tracelets, wash hands, for kids to mask, distance, any of that. However when they observe COVID related suspect behaviors, e.g. no tracelett, not observing hand washing, or appears I'll, they notify security with a description and security may intervene discreetly. Interesting and probably effective. 

The baseline assumption for the bet is that all lines are cruising under the industry developed STS plan which does include some CDC recommendations.

[barbeyg]

@JeffB Thanks for the firsthand report.  Those seem to be mostly reassuring, and a reason we are reconsidering sailing in December.  

[JeffB]

You're welcome ...... it is near impossible to remain positive about an end to or reasonable control of the pandemic being bombarded with the fear and dire consequences media narrative.

I posted elsewhere about this as related to what I consider an irresponsibly unnecessary announcement about the likely need for boosters by the Biden administration. 

COVID data, IMO, is uniformly unreliable for the purpose of both assessing and formulating PH policy when this is being done by amateurs at our level, including the media.  Epidemiology and virology are immensely complicated fields where absolutes rarely exist. 

I do think the CDC has data and hard working people who interpret it. The problem is that policy formulation has been corrupted by a number of factors, one being politics. Another is incompetence in both interpreting what hard working people who do know stuff are telling the deciders and the decider incompetently turning that into policy and messaging. 

[BrianB]

14 minutes ago, JeffB said:

You're welcome ...... it is near impossible to remain positive about an end to or reasonable control of the pandemic being bombarded with the fear and dire consequences media narrative.

I posted elsewhere about this as related to what I consider an irresponsibly unnecessary announcement about the likely need for boosters by the Biden administration. 

COVID data, IMO, is uniformly unreliable for the purpose of both assessing and formulating PH policy when this is being done by amateurs at our level, including the media.  Epidemiology and virology are immensely complicated fields where absolutes rarely exist. 

I do think the CDC has data and hard working people who interpret it. The problem is that policy formulation has been corrupted by a number of factors, one being politics. Another is incompetence in both interpreting what hard working people who do know stuff are telling the deciders and the decider incompetently turning that into policy and messaging. 

I also thank you for being a ‘test case’ for us. Your on scene contemporaneous reporting is giving me lots of insight and boosting my confidence that cruising is back to stay! 

You are right! Expert opinions, facts, science and data are unfortunately being manipulated and muddied by political and personal agendas. The so-called fair and balanced media are the worst offenders! Trust in what are supposed to be apolitical organizations is eroded….it’s a shame.
 

 

[JeffB]

I don't want to be dismissive of the dangers of SARS2 - it's a nasty virus, no question, and is among the worst the human race has encountered.

But, early and retrospectively, global PH response to the virus has been a disaster.....the one highlight being operation Warp Speed using a public/private model to develop mRNA vaccines that will turn out to be akin in value to humanity to Salk's development of the polio vaccine. 

When the available data is viewed in the proper context and in its entirety, devoid of the shameful politics and media drumbeat of fear good things begin to appear. For nations that didn't impose draconian mitigation measures that we're devastating to, in particular, the travel and leisure sector of the global economy, so damaging to human interactions, what's now on the plates of these nations, in varying degree, is figuring out how to live with and manage this thing.

Perceptions of risk are much greater than actual risks in the whole. It is those wrong headed perceptions of risk that are holding back moving forward not the actual risks of COVID. 

[twangster]

The last thing I want to add about Carnival...

They are operating within the framework and guidance of the CDC Conditional Sail Order.

Choosing the 95/95 vaccinated path and skipping a simulated test cruise did not absolve Carnival from the CSO.  Choosing 95/95 vaccinated simply means they were able to skip the simulated voyage and carry on with the rest of the CSO.  The CDC embraced Carnival's approach.  

If it isn't working, the CDC CSO guidance has a significant role in that. 

• For ships with at least 95% of crew and 95% of passengers fully vaccinated, cruise ship operators, at their discretion, may advise passengers and crew that they do not have to wear a mask or maintain physical distance in any areas. Confirmation that 95% of crew and 95% of passengers are fully vaccinated must be made available to CDC upon request.