TXcruzer Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Finally a conclusion to this sad tale https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/royal-caribbean-is-not-responsible-for-the-death-of-toddler-in-2019-judge-rules/ar-AAM979y?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 Heymarco and MAS63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLMoran Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Unfortunately, as with all things involving these kinds of suits and our legal system, it ain't over yet. Quote Winkelman told the Daily Mail that the Wiegand family planned to appeal the court's decision. "The family is surprised and deeply saddened by the court's ruling. This is a matter that should be decided by a jury, and we are confident and hopeful the appellate court will agree," Winkleman said. "We will be filing the appeal shortly and we will continue to fight and raise awareness about the dangers of unintentional toddler window falls," he added. "This case was always about Chloe and shining a light on her brief but beautiful life." I'm also not thrilled with this particular line in the article (emphasis added): Quote Wiegand was in the care of her grandfather when she fell to her death through an open window in a children’s play area on a cruise ship docked in San Juan, Puerto Rico, in July 2019. For frick's sake, Today, that area is not a children's play area!! That's just the spin the ambulance-chasing scumbag lawyer has used. The Solarium is no more a children's play area than the Schooner Bar or Boleros is. Do just two minutes of homework so you can give a truthful statement. Floski, Rags1, Baked Alaska and 5 others 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 I'm glad it was dismissed. RC and all cruise lines go to great lengths to prevent people from being stupid, but there's only so much they can do (and can be expected to do). Heymarco, Jjohnb, RWDW1204 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho and Barb Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Such a tragedy but as a person who has looked out that type of of window many times...I've never believed or understood how grandpa didn't know it was open. Baked Alaska 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starbrat Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Such a sad incident. What is even sadder is the grandfather pleaded guilty to homicide and was charged for it. That being said the spotlight needs to be on the grandfather and his actions and not the cruise line that he was on when he acted out those actions. It’s sad that they are trying to place blame on the cruise line. Good job to the court system. I pray for peace and comfort for that family. Vancity Cruiser 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbeyg Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 The judge was correct in tossing the case. Anyone who saw the video, and I assume the judge did, could observe that he leaned his upper body out the window looking at something. Then picked that sweet baby up and held her out the window so she could see, and he tragically lost his grip on her. That video is proof that he knew the window was open. It was an accident caused by his poor choices and one he will have to live with for the rest of his life. My heart goes out to this family. But pursuing legal action against RCI for his reckless actions, and trying to cast blame for a window open on a pool deck, one that is not a danger to children? That is, at best, an attempt to avoid accepting the horrendous truth of what happened, and at worst, greed. PPPJJ-GCVAB and starbrat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 Time for the family to move on. Period. Ray, JLMoran, Floski and 9 others 9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Blue Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 I heard about this at the time but didn't know the extra details I see here now. Just cringe inducing all around. Grandpa just lost his grip on her and his mind made a milli second mistake. I can see the hockey game memory might have been stuck in his brain. His sentence was more just administrative, I expect no judge would want to pile on to the life sentence he has now. But ....billion $ corporation?, lawyers working on a contingency fee basis?... they will probably invest more to get a settlement offer. Usually at the point where RC's insurers have had enough of the costs to them they will make this go away. I don't think I'd want to live much more if I was grandpa. calik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 It won't change anyone's mind that assumes cruise ships are always to blame, but it is good to see that this is indeed not Royal Caribbean's fault at all. calik, WAAAYTOOO, barbeyg and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattie A. Posted July 20, 2021 Report Share Posted July 20, 2021 The sad thing is that RCCL has surely spent a large amount of money on attorneys' fees, cost, etc. to defend this, even though it was not RCCL's fault. WAAAYTOOO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruiseGus Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Guess not https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2023/07/11/court-allows-toddler-dropped-through-cruise-ship-window-lawsuit-resume Do Judges really lack this much common sense? PPPJJ-GCVAB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeWhoWaits Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, CruiseGus said: Guess not https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2023/07/11/court-allows-toddler-dropped-through-cruise-ship-window-lawsuit-resume Do Judges really lack this much common sense? Yes, they do. Scooter6251 and Vancity Cruiser 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaa Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 24 minutes ago, CruiseGus said: Guess not https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2023/07/11/court-allows-toddler-dropped-through-cruise-ship-window-lawsuit-resume Do Judges really lack this much common sense? The appeals court is just saying that a jury should decide if RCI should have foreseen this possibility. They aren't saying that RCI should have. Just that this is a question for a jury. Now we'll see if the jurors have any common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonOasis Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 53 minutes ago, Xaa said: The appeals court is just saying that a jury should decide if RCI should have foreseen this possibility. They aren't saying that RCI should have. Just that this is a question for a jury. Now we'll see if the jurors have any common sense. If Royal could have foreseen this as a possibility? The appeals court has gone bonkers have they seen cruise ships now days? In addition to windows that open on the pool deck all of RCI's cruise ships have balconies that parents or grandparents could hold their children over. No parent/grandparent would ever hold their child over a balcony railing, so why did the grandfather think it was okay to hold a child out a window on the 11th floor? This should not have to go to a jury the appeals court should have done their job and shut this down. I still feel sorry for the parents after all no parent should have to bury their child especially a child as young as this one who should still be alive, however they need to place the blame where it belongs and that is squarely on the shoulders of the grandfather. I hope the jury sees through this and puts this issue to bed once and for all. sammy79, PPPJJ-GCVAB and Vancity Cruiser 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Based purely on the law, I can see the judge's logic. But based on common sense...c'mon Ryan79 and Scooter6251 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanHardlyWait Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 55 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: Based purely on the law, I can see the judge's logic. But based on common sense...c'mon Common sense and the law. LOL. More often than not they end up being two different things. Sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 20 minutes ago, CanHardlyWait said: Common sense and the law. LOL. More often than not they end up being two different things. Sadly. That's why we have insane warning labels on random benign stuff Floski and tjcruisers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobroo Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 Let's remember Royal has the deep pockets here and these civil claims take many years to get to trial. I sincerely hope Royal Caribbean drags this out past the customary 7 years or so to get to the trial date, costing the Wiegand family lots of money in the meantime. Lots of money they can't afford. I also hope they call Salvatore Anello to the stand. Just in case he is still on speaking terms with the Wiegand family, let's make everyone painfully aware what an idiot he is. I'd like this public humiliation to go on for 2 or 3 days straight. That surveillance footage the Puerto Rican news station published is awfully damning to Mr Anello and he did plead guilty in the criminal case. A lot of things happen over the course of seven or eight years, but I'm certain RCI will still be around; I'm doubtful the Wiegand family checking account will be able to afford to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaa Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 10 hours ago, JasonOasis said: If Royal could have foreseen this as a possibility? The appeals court has gone bonkers have they seen cruise ships now days? In addition to windows that open on the pool deck all of RCI's cruise ships have balconies that parents or grandparents could hold their children over. No parent/grandparent would ever hold their child over a balcony railing, so why did the grandfather think it was okay to hold a child out a window on the 11th floor? This should not have to go to a jury the appeals court should have done their job and shut this down. I still feel sorry for the parents after all no parent should have to bury their child especially a child as young as this one who should still be alive, however they need to place the blame where it belongs and that is squarely on the shoulders of the grandfather. I hope the jury sees through this and puts this issue to bed once and for all. You're preaching to the choir. My opinion on if they should have foreseen it is in line with yours. Playing devils advocate though, you and I say " No parent/grandparent would ever hold their child over a balcony railing". That's apparently in question given that at least one did hold their grandchild out through an 11th floor window. I have no idea if through discovery they find that this is more common than we think. Never under estimate the stupidity of man. I have faith in the jury system. PPPJJ-GCVAB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaa Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 hours ago, bobroo said: I sincerely hope Royal Caribbean drags this out past the customary 7 years or so to get to the trial date, costing the Wiegand family lots of money in the meantime. Lots of money they can't afford. If only that were the way. The case is almost certainly taken on contingency. The family likely only has to pay expenses if there is no settlement. They aren't paying anything now. CruiseGus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonCruiser Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 In my opinion asking if Royal should have forseen this is asking if they have thought about every single dumb thing a human could possibly do and if they have a responsibility to create prevention for that....and I think the answer is no. At some point it becomes a risk to even allow people on a cruise ship. I mean...there's a place for someone to do dumb things literally EVERYWHERE. I can literally think of 20 right now. The area he was in had chest-high windows that are angled to prevent easy falling and also prevent a wind tunnel dragging people overboard. They did their part and created a safe viewing area. The fact that he turned it unsafe is not and should never be considered Royal's fault. And the fact that the family and these judges won't let this rest upsets me because it's prolonging the pain of everyone involved (not that I think the pain will ever truly go away for the family...but ....it could at least have the chance to fade) Kay45 and PPPJJ-GCVAB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 FWIW: PPPJJ-GCVAB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeWhoWaits Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 48 minutes ago, Matt said: FWIW: Saw them holding children IN FRONT OF open windows, not OUTSIDE OF the open windows. The safety officer needs to be clear in emphasizing that point. Do we know people hold their kids up for a better view? Absolutely. Do we anticipate that people will dangle their children OUT of the window? No, because we expect at least a modicum of common sense. CruiseGus, PPPJJ-GCVAB and AlmondFarmer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantix2000 Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 47 minutes ago, Matt said: We don't know the context of this statement from the safety officer. There's a big difference between "holding children in front of the open windows" (meaning standing behind the railing and lifting the child high enough to see out while the child is also behind the railing) and "holding children in front of the open windows" (meaning standing or leaning past the railing). HeWhoWaits and sammy79 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 "And Koopman testified that Royal Caribbean knew about the risk of children falling through open windows and adults holding children in front of open windows" Problem here isn't a kid that fell out of a window. It's a man who dropped a girl out of a window. PPPJJ-GCVAB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjcruisers Posted July 14, 2023 Report Share Posted July 14, 2023 Koopman testimony struck me in that he wasn't working with Royal at the time, not like he was a an officer on board that day (how the heck did lawyers find him in particular). Reading a cruise law site I see this "Royal Caribbean had tried to counter this aspect of the Wiegand’s case by arguing that Officer Koopman is a disgruntled ex-employee who shares an attorney with the Wiegands, so his testimony should be discredited." Looking at his linked in page he went from a CSO on the ships to a few some smaller jobs, does look like he didn't leave Royal voluntarily, which supports Royal's statement. In the end there has to be some concept of common sense, which this grandfather didn't appear to have CruiseGus and JohnK6404 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnson84 Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 watching the video you can clearly see he put her outside the window, and as toddlers do they are very wiggly & squirmy, he lost his grip on her. He should have never placed her outside the window & when others seen him do this he should have been stopped! Nicci 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicci Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Apparently the family got their appeal approved, so the case might go to court? Mentioned around 42 minutes in this youtube video: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Of The Seas Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 On 7/14/2023 at 8:46 AM, tjcruisers said: Koopman testimony struck me in that he wasn't working with Royal at the time, not like he was a an officer on board that day (how the heck did lawyers find him in particular). Reading a cruise law site I see this "Royal Caribbean had tried to counter this aspect of the Wiegand’s case by arguing that Officer Koopman is a disgruntled ex-employee who shares an attorney with the Wiegands, so his testimony should be discredited." Looking at his linked in page he went from a CSO on the ships to a few some smaller jobs, does look like he didn't leave Royal voluntarily, which supports Royal's statement. In the end there has to be some concept of common sense, which this grandfather didn't appear to have Will never happen in my lifetime, but the frivolous lawsuits could be ended with one simple change; loser pays the other side's legal fees. Not the current system where the absolved party has to go through a bunch of legal caca raca for a judge's ruling ordering payment. The trial attorneys will fight to the death to keep things status quo. tjcruisers, Vancity Cruiser and Nicci 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 I don't believe there has been anything new on that lawsuit since last summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicci Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 19 hours ago, smokeybandit said: I don't believe there has been anything new on that lawsuit since last summer. Ah, yes I see that now, when I found another article about the appeal being sent back, and it was in Summer, not in November which I thought when I watched the video (that is fairly new, uploaded a few days ago). So that seems to be the last news, as you say. I just found the reasons for it being returned to court so surprising, so who knows. Sorry for resurrecting an old thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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