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New guidelines out for July sailings out of FL


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I just booked for December on Freedom but did so assuming much of the restrictions are gone by then. I don’t wear a mask now anywhere any more so don’t want to be on a cruise where it would be expected in some situations. I plan to use the Cruise with confidence program to move my cruise out if things aren’t better by final payment in Oct. 

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I said a few weeks ago when it became obvious that RCL was going to have a hybrid pax manifest that that approach would open a can of worms. Welp, guess what? It has.

I thought @joshgatesmade a good point in another thread about Caribbean countries not having access to vaccines yet and that their populations are largely unvaccinated and therefor vulnerable to COVID being carried to them by unvacinated cruise passengers.

There's no question that the risk of serious illness from COVID is only about 1-2% across all age cohorts - higher for over 50s. The problem is transmission. One person, a citizen of a Caribbean country the ship is making a port call in, gets exposed and boom, you have the potential for an outbreak in that country and it shuts its boarders. Maybe no one gets seriously ill or dies but there is a pretty good chance of a bad outcome attendant to letting unvaxed go ashore...... to me just another can of worms that RCL (and now co-branded Celebrity) has set themselves up for.

I too dislike the policy that you can't board if you're not vaccinated because it shuts out families that have under 16/12 age kids with them. But I think the bad PR that policy begets for being the spreader of COVID in a Caribbean country is considerably more than that from the policy that everyone aboard has to be vaxed. That's the policy everywhere else that I'm watching now that vaccines are available. I support it because that is my reality .......Id' probably feel differently if my reality had kids that want to cruise with me and/or my return to cruising won't happen because I have members of my party that can't get vaccinated for any number of valid reasons.

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I know that I might clearly be the minority here, but looking at the latest posted by @CGTLH, that does not deter me from sailing FR in August if Canada opens the borders.  Maybe it's because I am so cruise deprived and I miss it so much, or maybe it's because looking at the way I normally cruise, those restrictions really don't affect me too much.  Or perhaps I simply have an addiction problem...?

Jokes aside, even if those restrictions in place come August, I would be grateful to be able to cruise.

 

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37 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I said a few weeks ago when it became obvious that RCL was going to have a hybrid pax manifest that that approach would open a can of worms. Welp, guess what? It has.

I thought @joshgatesmade a good point in another thread about Caribbean countries not having access to vaccines yet and that their populations are largely unvaccinated and therefor vulnerable to COVID being carried to them by unvacinated cruise passengers.

There's no question that the risk of serious illness from COVID is only about 1-2% across all age cohorts - higher for over 50s. The problem is transmission. One person, a citizen of a Caribbean country the ship is making a port call in, gets exposed and boom, you have the potential for an outbreak in that country and it shuts its boarders. Maybe no one gets seriously ill or dies but there is a pretty good chance of a bad outcome attendant to letting unvaxed go ashore...... to me just another can of worms that RCL (and now co-branded Celebrity) has set themselves up for.

I too dislike the policy that you can't board if you're not vaccinated because it shuts out families that have under 16/12 age kids with them. But I think the bad PR that policy begets for being the spreader of COVID in a Caribbean country is considerably less than that from the policy that everyone aboard has to be vaxed. That's the policy everywhere else that I'm watching now that vaccines are available. I support it because that is my reality .......Id' probably feel differently if my reality had kids that want to cruise with me and/or my return to cruising won't happen because I have members of my party that can't get vaccinated for any number of valid reasons.

Just like in the US, countries in the Caribbean have to set their own Covid policies. In the US, we are continuing to learn the disastrous effects of lockdowns on not only the economy but societal long term damage we have done to our children. 
 

Caribbean nations are well aware of the potential of Covid spread by opening their ports back up to cruise ships. But these sovereign nations also know the effect of continued economic shutdown by the cruise lines not visiting. They understand that poverty and economic distress causes more health problems than Covid presents.

it’s not as if the cruise lines are forcing these island nations to allow them to port. Each nation has decided whether to allow cruises to port or not and therefore assume the responsibility for Covid spread. And I would imagine that many citizens of these nations that were reliant on tourist generated income, Covid is the least of their worries and they want their governments to allow cruise tourism back. 
 

AND again, natural immunity is being ignored. Just because citizens of these Caribbean nations may not have access to widespread vaccines, this does not mean that a percentage of their populace had already had Covid and now have natural immunity against Covid 

 

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2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

Caribbean nations are well aware of the potential of Covid spread by opening their ports back up to cruise ships.

Correct. 

I see two issues here: (1) What are the implications of a COVID outbreak in a Caribbean nation secondary to a cruise ship passenger initiating it? (2) What are the implications for RCL if an outbreak in a Caribbean nation is tracked to a cruise ship passenger. Lets deal with these one at a time:

I think @UNCFanatik has accurately described the risk calculation for the Caribbean nations who have opened ports to host cruise ships. That risk assessment, at it's simplest level, involves the benefit of an increase in economic activity secondary to cruise ship passengers v. the downsides of an outbreak most prominently involving stress on the country's HC system. There might be other layers, e.g., what is the revenue plus-up to the governments hosting cruise ships in thier ports and getting port fees from the lines? What are cruise ship passengers spending in the local economy. What is the real risk of a COVID outbreak involving serious illness and/or death given current knowledge of symptomatic and/or hospitalized citizens. @UNCFanatikoffers that tourism and the money generated from it is a driving force behind a willingness of these countries to open to cruise ships and remain open as long as the cruise lines play by the rules and don't screw it up. Pretty good bet they will. I agree with this ..... with some reservations. 

The Caribbean Islands have a "Caribbean Community" named CARICOM and a PH organization within that called the Caribbean Public Health Agency (CARPHA). I checked it out and found a decent summary of what CARPHA has to say about COVID: https://carpha.org/Portals/0/Documents/COVID Travel Briefs/Update 30 Travel Brief_COVID-19 12th June 2020.pdf ..... there is also a pretty complete economic assessment of worst case, baseline and best case dollar amount of tourism based revenues at the link above. 

To summarize this short trip I took through this web site, most Caribbean nations (DR, Haiti and Jamaica are exceptions) have remained remarkably free of COVID, most notably very low COVID mortality. They want to stay that way. Based on what we've seen in Asia lately, I'd assign that outcome to strict boarder closings at the outset of the pandemic and continuing until just very recently (Community wide, May/June openings except GC).

Clearly, the trend is toward reopening tourism but the leash is short. There is strong central messaging from CARPHA to get vaccinated but quite a bit of vaccine hesitancy. Leaders are saying, if you want tourism to increase, our economies and your lives to improve we have to reach herd immunity. If we don't get there the consequences are renewed closures and lock-downs. I interpret this messaging as the islands having a very taught trip wire to shut tourism down if there is an outbreak to protect the unvaccinated and the HC systems. The island geography of the community makes doing that an easy, go to mitigation measure and entirely reasonable IMO.

I would not count on Caribbean nations to not yank the rug out from underneath open cruise ports if a COVID outbreak becomes confirmed from any and all tourism related activity. Some countries may have already told RCL, sorry, no unvaxed PAX can debark from the ship and proceed on their own

What issues is RCL dealing with? Well, I suspect they've been told just what I wrote in the last sentence above. Their response to the two teens getting infected on AoS is an indicator. Pretty confident that RCL thinks that it is too important to RCL's rep and to its financial well being to let unvaxed passengers onto the islands and spark an outbreak no matter how remote that occurrence might be. I don't think RCL is worried about pissing off the unvaxed, kids or not. There's a chance they've been told no unvaxed can enter from your ships and travel independently. I will admit my bias in expressing this view and acknowledge that others won't share it. But discourse on this subject informs both sides.    

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Cancelled our cruise, too many hoops to jump thru and too many unknown. They're over reaching with their protocols and penalties. The CEO's blatant stance of making those unvaccinated pay more and not have as much fun is ridiculous. We have children, who cannot get it. I am not going to risk getting quarantined because of a child getting it. Nothing is guaranteed at this point, and we are not willing to risk the money and time for them to get their act together.

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1 hour ago, JeffB said:

OK, show of hands. How many of you that are vaxed or unvaxed and booked on FoS in July will cancel because of this?

My take is that it's good accommodation. The Casino lock-out might be a show stopper for some but the rest, eh.

I agree... this is a good accommodation.   If you look all the vaccine-only events/venues would be for adults 16+ anyway and all the potentially family events/venues are still available to do as a family with unvaxxed kids.   Basically RC is encouraging those who can be vaxxed to do so and if your not and don't like the restrictions they put in place you can choose to take the refund just like getting the vaccine is a choice.   

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2 hours ago, JeffB said:

OK, show of hands. How many of you that are vaxed or unvaxed and booked on FoS in July will cancel because of this?

My take is that it's good accommodation. The Casino lock-out might be a show stopper for some but the rest, eh.

Not on Freedom, but I expect our protocols will be very similar for SY in August.  We are waiting to see if the full casino lock-out is in effect on SY (which I expect it to be) and if it is, we will have a big decision to make.  The rest of the off limits areas are immaterial to us.  If we want Izumi (which we will.  We eat at Izumi often), we can have it delivered to our suite.  The interest in hibachi has long since passed.  We aren't bar sitters so none of the bars are of any consequence to us.  We have done the Chef's Table so many times we won't miss it if we can't do it this time.  I don't do pools of any kind but Dan enjoys the outdoor pool, so no issue there.  Couldn't care less about the Solarium so really the casino is the only potential show-stopper for us. Not sure what kind of "select events" they are talking about for the SL but Freedom is very different from OY in the suites area.  I will have to see what they do with the SL/CK for OY.  Dan enjoys the thermal spa (sauna, primarily) so that could be a disappointment.  We'll have to see what OY does.  We won't be doing any spa treatments and from what I understand from previous discussions, it's the treatments that are specifically off limits to unvaxxed.  Not an issue for us.

So only the casino is a real issue for us and it's a big one.  That's what we do on cruises.  I can't imagine being on an 8 day cruise and not going into the casino at all.  We're holding short for now.

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51 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

If we want Izumi (which we will.  We eat at Izumi often), we can have it delivered to our suite.  The interest in hibachi has long since passed.

My guess the restriction on Freedom has to do with minimal to no regular seating. Majority of the seating is geared around the hibachi tables where everyone is generally elbow to elbow. Plus I'm sure the hibachi would be classified as an "extended dining" experience.

I'm sure the restriction won't apply to the Izumi Sushi side on Oasis and Quantum class ships. Izumi has the space to allow physical distancing between tables.

51 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

We have done the Chef's Table so many times we won't miss it if we can't do it this time.

Don't think Symphony has Chef's Table, odd ball ship if I'm recalling. Sure once again the "extended dining" experience classification would apply.

 

Same time how does Chef's Table, Izumi Hibachi, and Teppanyaki stay within Royal's own guidance? 

Q: Are reservations required for dining, and will there be limits on party sizes at your restaurants?
A: Reservations are strongly recommended and easy to make using the Royal Caribbean App once you are onboard. Making a prior reservation ensures you're able to secure a dining time of your choosing, avoids forming lines outside venues and allows for physical distancing. For the safety of all our guests onboard, at this time, a maximum of 8 guests are allowed per table, and guests may only dine with other members of their travel party unless they have a linked reservation. If you’d like to dine with other parties during your cruise, you can easily link your bookings by calling us at 866-562-7625. We are continually evaluating these protocols and will make updates as public health standards evolve.

Ref: https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/are-reservations-required-for-dining-and-limits-on-party-size

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43 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

My guess the restriction on Freedom has to do with minimal to no regular seating. Majority of the seating is geared around the hibachi tables where everyone is generally elbow to elbow. Plus I'm sure the hibachi would be classified as an "extended dining" experience.

I'm sure the restriction won't apply to the Izumi Sushi side on Oasis and Quantum class ships. Izumi has the space to allow physical distancing between tables.

Don't think Symphony has Chef's Table, odd ball ship if I'm recalling. Sure once again the "extended dining" experience classification would apply.

 

Same time how does Chef's Table, Izumi Hibachi, and Teppanyaki stay within Royal's own guidance? 

Q: Are reservations required for dining, and will there be limits on party sizes at your restaurants?
A: Reservations are strongly recommended and easy to make using the Royal Caribbean App once you are onboard. Making a prior reservation ensures you're able to secure a dining time of your choosing, avoids forming lines outside venues and allows for physical distancing. For the safety of all our guests onboard, at this time, a maximum of 8 guests are allowed per table, and guests may only dine with other members of their travel party unless they have a linked reservation. If you’d like to dine with other parties during your cruise, you can easily link your bookings by calling us at 866-562-7625. We are continually evaluating these protocols and will make updates as public health standards evolve.

Ref: https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/are-reservations-required-for-dining-and-limits-on-party-size

Makes sense (about Izumi).  You are correct.  I had forgotten that SY doesn't have the CT.  I wouldn't miss it even if they did....but thanks for the reminder.

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5 hours ago, JeffB said:

OK, show of hands. How many of you that are vaxed or unvaxed and booked on FoS in July will cancel because of this?

My take is that it's good accommodation. The Casino lock-out might be a show stopper for some but the rest, eh.

Vaxxed!  And definitely going in August if our borders open!

Looking at what @CGTLH posted, I agree, that seems like a fair accommodation.  The venues that are not available to unvaxxed are the smaller ones where distancing is not as doable.

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What I would like to know is why hasn't Royal Caribbean installed UV-C sterilizers on their ships?? HEPA does not sterilize, it only removes the virus AFTER it has been through the entire ventilation system. UV-C KILLS the virus, period, and it doesn't have to go through the entire ventilation system to do it. Installing a UV-C sterilizer system would not only prevent COVID outbreaks, it would prevent ANY virus from spreading on their ships. 

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6 hours ago, Renate said:

What I would like to know is why hasn't Royal Caribbean installed UV-C sterilizers on their ships?? HEPA does not sterilize, it only removes the virus AFTER it has been through the entire ventilation system. UV-C KILLS the virus, period, and it doesn't have to go through the entire ventilation system to do it. Installing a UV-C sterilizer system would not only prevent COVID outbreaks, it would prevent ANY virus from spreading on their ships. 

@Renate, Welcome to The Blog!   Thanks for posting. 
 

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6 hours ago, Renate said:

What I would like to know is why hasn't Royal Caribbean installed UV-C sterilizers on their ships?? HEPA does not sterilize, it only removes the virus AFTER it has been through the entire ventilation system. UV-C KILLS the virus, period, and it doesn't have to go through the entire ventilation system to do it. Installing a UV-C sterilizer system would not only prevent COVID outbreaks, it would prevent ANY virus from spreading on their ships. 

Because it was found it wasn't necessary

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24463-royal-caribbean-group-hvac-study-low-transmission-of-particles.html

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Thinking about this over the weekend I am really struggling with wearing masks indoors if vaccinated.  This statement isn’t even accurate anymore or is this specific to cruises?  

Masks and Physical Distancing
When indoors, CDC guidelines require all guests 2 and older to wear masks unless they are actively eating or drinking. The CDC does make allowances for guests to remove their masks in venues and events dedicated to fully vaccinated parties. Since so many of our guests are vaccinated, you’ll find plenty of these opportunities.

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1 hour ago, DunwoodyDad said:

Thinking about this over the weekend I am really struggling with wearing masks indoors if vaccinated.  This statement isn’t even accurate anymore or is this specific to cruises?  

Masks and Physical Distancing
When indoors, CDC guidelines require all guests 2 and older to wear masks unless they are actively eating or drinking. The CDC does make allowances for guests to remove their masks in venues and events dedicated to fully vaccinated parties. Since so many of our guests are vaccinated, you’ll find plenty of these opportunities.

Cruise ship rules.

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11 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

But vaccinated need to get tested for Bahamas cruises.

I would certainly take a pre-cruise test to avoid wearing a mask at all (since I’m vaccinated). Because RCL essentially set the rules for Adventure, my assumption is that this (masks but no test) was a CDC stipulation.  My hope remains that the CSO is invalidated and RCL can set the rules for US sailings to match what they are doing out of the Bahamas. 

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33 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

They better be offering full refunds for those opting out of these new requirements.  Getting this insurance for my 13 year old is bit ridiculous.  Hopefully the actuarial tables and premium reflect the actual risk of a 13 year old being evacuated due to Covid.

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53 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

They better be offering full refunds for those opting out of these new requirements.  Getting this insurance for my 13 year old is bit ridiculous.  Hopefully the actuarial tables and premium reflect the actual risk of a 13 year old being evacuated due to Covid.

Did you book your cruise already?  This is only for future bookings after June 28.

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19 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

I did.  That is good news if true, but I couldn’t tell that for sure in the write up.

My bad..the only except is for cruises booked in the last few months.  March 19, 2021 - June 28, 2021.  Not sure why that window would be exempted.  

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28 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

That basically says the rule only applies going forward and they aren't penalizing those who have already booked.

I must be reading something wrong.  To me, it says that the new insurance requirement applies to all bookings except those booked between 3-19-21 and 6-28-21.  Like @AshleyDillo, I can't understand why that 3 month period is exempt, but that's how it reads to me.

image.png.d5dcbac9a366a3551c19374630fb80e6.png

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42 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

 Like @AshleyDillo, I can't understand why that 3 month period is exempt, but that's how it reads to me.

image.png.d5dcbac9a366a3551c19374630fb80e6.png

My first thought went to was that a typo and they meant March 2020, which would have been near the beginning of the pandemic?  But then why wouldn't anyone booked prior to today, no matter when they booked pre-pandemic or not, be exempt?  Would have been easy enough to word it that previous bookings are grandfathered in.  It's a big change in policy either way.  

The only significance of March 19, 2021 I could find was that was the day they announced they would be starting to sail Adventure from Nassau in the summer.  Maybe the focus on that time frame is because they didn't want to penalize the  passengers who already booked on Adventure to having to get insurance for their kids?

Just re-read and it's only for Florida ports apparently, so scratch that thought process.

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I think it has something to do with the Adventure sailings but also the whole CDC/CSO situations. RCG initially wanted to sail with vax pax only. But as a family line they are allowing children to sail, which means adults who don't want to be vax can sail as well. Their original policy had provisions to take care of guest who might catch Covid on the ship....but all of this is based off of everyone on board being vaccinated. That type of insurance and prevention cost and it cost more for a person with no immunity. So I believe they want to pass the cost onto those who won't/can't vax.

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31 minutes ago, Ampurp85 said:

So I believe they want to pass the cost onto those who won't/can't vax.

I totally get and understand that and it makes sense. 

I just don't get why that magical 3-month booking period is exempt from that requirement.  It doesn't affect me at all, but it still bugs me not to know.

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36 minutes ago, Jverge said:

Could it be that during that period RCC said if you caught Covid on the ship the would foot the bill for medical evacuation and other Covid 19 travel expenses to get you back home and now they are saying you need to have insurance to cover those expenses?

Maybe, but I think that has been in all bookings since COVID going back to 2020.  Now they're just requiring the non-vaccinated to foot their own insurance since statistically they would be the ones who would have more severe cases and more of a chance for needing emergency care that comes at a high cost when traveling.  I just don't get if you booked an August 2021 Allure sailing, for example, back in November 2020 you would have get the insurance, but if you booked that same cruise last week you wouldn't.

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