New guidelines out for July sailings out of FL

[JeffB]

 

28 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

‘That’s all well and good ….. I just don’t think vaccinated adults who want to go on cruises with their unvaccinated children should be penalized ….. there’s no reason at all to not treat unvaccinated children in a party with vaccinated adults the same as their parents. …… ie treating the children as if they were vaccinated ….. not forcing the vaccinated parents into segregation.

 

 

I agree with you. My point is that with RCL choosing a path to restart that involves a hybrid passenger manifest presents RCL with problems like the one you mention. It's going to be very tough to deal with them but apparently they have chosen to so so. I think it's a bad choice. 

I'll admit, I don't have children I want to take on a cruise right now so, I'm less empathetic with parents who do want to do that than I should be. I have a gut feeling - maybe just a hope - this is all going to be moot in about 2 weeks. I'll post why in a moment.

[ChrisK2793]

14 minutes ago, ConstantCruiser said:

The NCL approach is zero unvaccinated.   They aren't offering a payment refund either.  Their "refund" is FCC.  Got kids?  NCL says "No cruise for you".

Royal is doing their best to navigate rough seas battered by hurricane Walensky on the west and tropical storm DeSantis on the east.  They are trying to figure a way for families with kids to be accommodated while working within the silly constraints of the CDC and the absurd policies of Florida. 

Royal isn't to blame for this compromise.  Our federal and state governments are.

 

Again, if they expect vaccinated parents with unvaccinated kids to go on their cruises knowing the entire family will be segregated to a LESSER-status, they’re going to be in for a rude awakening.  Especially families paying for suites ….. that’s not going to go over well and I see a massive cascade of cancellations if that’s how vaccinated families with unvaccinated children are going to be treated.  
 

 

[ConstantCruiser]

11 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

Again, if they expect vaccinated parents with unvaccinated kids to go on their cruises knowing the entire family will be segregated to a LESSER-status, they’re going to be in for a rude awakening.  Especially families paying for suites ….. that’s not going to go over well and I see a massive cascade of cancellations if that’s how vaccinated families with unvaccinated children are going to be treated.  
 

 

Yes.  However it's the guests choice to cancel.  NCL isn't giving families a choice.  

Rock < Royal > Hard Place.

A while ago in a thread that was locked the question was asked - What can cruise lines do to get around the Florida vaccination passport ban?

The obvious answer was onerous protocols on unvaccinated to motivate them to not cruise.

Now we are seeing the outcome when governments quickly whip up law without thinking it through.  

[ChrisK2793]

31 minutes ago, ConstantCruiser said:

Yes.  However it's the guests choice to cancel.  NCL isn't giving families a choice.  

Rock < Royal > Hard Place.

A while ago in a thread that was locked the question was asked - What can cruise lines do to get around the Florida vaccination passport ban?

The obvious answer was onerous protocols on unvaccinated to motivate them to not cruise.

Now we are seeing the outcome when governments quickly whip up law without thinking it through.  

‘Good luck to NCL with the lawsuits if they’re telling families with kids that they can’t go on a cruise and also can’t have a cash refund of what they paid to go on said cruise when NCL is the one who cancelled them from going  LMAO  

 

[JeffB]

Some facts:

• Indoor congregate settings like cruise ships present an increased risk of becoming infected with both airborne and surface-born pathogens and subsequent acceleration among passengers.
• The CDC has established guidance that those people vaccinated for SARS2 can "resume activities that you did before the pandemic."
• Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.
• Masks are required on planes, buses, trains, and other forms of public transportation traveling into, within, or out of the United States and in U.S. transportation hubs such as airports and stations.
• Travelers are not required to wear a mask in outdoor areas of a conveyance (like on a ferry or the top deck of a bus).
• CDC recommends that travelers who are not fully vaccinated continue to wear a mask and maintain physical distance when traveling.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

OK, so you've read the facts. I find them clear wrt the increased risks of infection on a cruise ship and a need to address that risk, unclear with respect to passenger behaviors on a cruise ship. There's plenty of wiggle room here with respect to masking. There's no CDC guidance that recommends masking within indoor settings. The CDC requires them on some federally regulated transportation hubs and conveyances but notably not in cruise terminals or on cruise ships. It leaves it up to businesses (cruise lines) to decide on mitigation measures inside their places of business.... and I'm still not completely clear on whether it is state or federal regulatory authority inside a cruise terminal (see previous comments on the FL law suit and what Merryday is likely going to have to deal with) or with respect to the VSP for cruise ships within a port.

The determination of that question, if, in fact, it gets addressed and I think it will, is the wild cared in this discussion. IMO. If Merryday definitively rules or even suggests that the CSO conflicts with a businesses right or the state's authority to regulate cruise ship's and it's ancillary support operations and is, in part or fully unlawful, our discussion on this issue becomes moot.    

TBF, I don't think the CDC guidance presents any barriers to co-mingling of masked (un-vaxed) and unmasked (vaxed) passengers on a cruise ship. I think it is clear that if you are "traveling" and I assume this means on a cruise ship, if you are unvaxed, you should mask except outdoors and in all settings maintain social distancing. 

Having said that and just in case Merryday rules the CSO is lawful, it seems to me that RCL has unnecessarily complicated it's health and safety protocols on board their ships with what I'd call coercive policies (that they are severely onerous so as to discourage sailing) and unnecessary mitigation measures (e.g., segregation and restricted access).

Sure, it's pretty clear RCL is choosing not to confront Desantis on the vaccine issues and is trying to conform to the rules of the CSO but, IMO, in doing that they've made a mess of it. If I were writing the protocols for RCL they'd look something like this:

• Vaccination is encouraged to board except for children under 16 to August first and under 12 after that.
• You may choose to not disclose your vaccination status.
• If you choose to not disclose, you must present proof of a negative molecular (PCR) COVID test within 72h of boarding. This requirement pertains to all passengers including children.
• Unvaccinated passengers will be listed as such on privately maintained rosters and be subject to randomly scheduled rapid antigen testing at the discretion of RCL. This requirement pertains to all passengers including children.
• Unvaccinated passengers must follow CDC guidance to mask indoors at all times, except when seated and eating or drinking and when social distancing cannot be maintained. Children under 16 to August 1st and under 12 after that are exempt from a requirement to mask in any setting.

Admittedly I struggled with the kids. The science supports very low transmission rates in this cohort so, one could argue they don't need to be surveilled while onboard with a rapid antigen tests. I'm with others here who are vaccinated and don't worry about being among the unvaccinated. I think the risk of infection in this cohort followed by asymptomatic transmission is over-blown. TBC, while I'm in favor of surveilling unvaccinated passengers there are lots of ways to do this effectively without antigen testing everyone. In fact there's a sweet spot to hit with this sort of thing where you avoid potential for high numbers of false positives.

 

 

[Jill]

2 hours ago, ChrisK2793 said:

Doubtful ….. why would vaccinated parents want to book and pay for a cruise where the ENTIRE family will be segregated to a LESSER cruise experience because their kids aren’t vaccinated???  I seriously doubt anybody who wanted to take their kids on a FUN Disney cruise will sign up for a SEGRATED “family” cruise on RCL, they might as well just take their kids to Disney Word or on a beach vacation where they can actually have a good time for their money.

 

I’m talking about those eligible for a vaccine (adult) and choose not to take it. That’s who Royal is trying to discourage. 
 

Adventure is sailing right now with unvaccinated children. They aren’t separated from their parents. 
 

 

[ChrisK2793]

23 minutes ago, Jill said:

I’m talking about those eligible for a vaccine (adult) and choose not to take it. That’s who Royal is trying to discourage. 
 

Adventure is sailing right now with unvaccinated children. They aren’t separated from their parents. 
 

 

Adventure also isn’t a mixed cruise as far as adults are concerned  …… the current guidelines for mixed (adults vaccinated and non-vaccinated) cruises state the unvaccinated will be segregated ….. it doesn’t state any allowance for children in a vaccinated adult group.  Going by those guidelines, until RCL says otherwise, one can only guess that vaccinated adults will be forced to be segregated into the unvaccinated LESSER quality experience to be with their children.

 

[LCinPDX]

From a purely safety standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to fully integrate unvaxed pax with vaxed pax?  If you put a bunch of unvaxed people together to eat without a mask on, it seems like if there was a covid positive individual, it would spread much more readily within this crowd.  Vaxed people could potentially buffer that from happening due to decreased viral loads/shedding, no?  It seems like some of these procedures are more to provide gentle pressure to pax to get their vaccine so that they don't have to deal with the inconvenience and extra cost.

[Marlena]

Anyone else dying to hear what @Matt has to say about this subject? I think he is on that sailing and has children. 

[DunwoodyDad]

So last night I was literally booking a cruise online filling out forms and clicked over to Matt’s blog and saw this. It made me pause because it doesn’t sound anything like the current experience I have been reading about and seeing coming from Adventure this week. I realize Royal is trying to navigate this complex situation between the CDC, the governors restrictions around vaccine proof, and the desire to serve families. But it still sounds like an experience I am not interested in.

I am looking at a date in December and would hope these things would change by then.  To me asking vaccinated people to wear masks indoors in certain situations just doesn’t align to what is happening everywhere in the US at this point.   

I would have seen things differently just a couple months ago, but things are so much more normalish now.  So at this point I am not sure if I am booking or not. 

[WhiteSoxFan]

And by December the landscape will have changed again.  I expect changes every month or two as more ships sail and we see the results.

[DublinFC]

32 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

And by December the landscape will have changed again.  I expect changes every month or two as more ships sail and we see the results.

I am praying this is exactly what happens.  

[UNCFanatik]

Desantis is an easy scapegoat in all this. Do i think he should make an allowance to his vaccine passport law for cruise lines? Yes.

However, from a purely business standpoint did Royal ever have an interest in fully vaccinated Caribbean cruises in the summer? When Royal looked at their bookings this summer, did they think they could even meet the 95% vaccinated threshold set by CDC? 

Lets say Desantis' law is struck down or an allowance is made tomorrow. Would Royal then require vaccination records for all guests? What then? More refunds.....cancellations...rebookings. Logistical nightmare. From a business standpoint do they REALLY want to discourage unvaccinated passengers especially families with children this summer?

I get the argument in response that the cruise industry cannot afford restart with Covid cases on ships. However, we all know even with a vaccinated crew and passenger ships, Covid cases can still happen if testing is done. Its about mitigation and following protocols. 

Lastly, as has been stated many times, we need to start treating Covid as endemic and not pandemic as cases continue to wane across the country. I know the media will keep with the variants scare but that seems more of a tactic to get more people vaccinated. I bet the NIH, CDC, and FDA all have vaccination rates among their employees lower than they are requiring for cruiselines. 

[rcdave]

I'm having doubts that my Jan/2022 cruise on the Anthem will take place. I know things are changing day by day but RC needs to take a stand and start cruising from the US - you will not please everyone. I have an August/2021 cruise (not with RC) scheduled leaving out of a foreign port. No one under 18 and all must be vaccinated - I know this is not family friendly, sorry. 

To get started, RC could  relocate a ship to NJ, Maryland, or NY - restrict passengers to fully vaccinated ages 12 and up and begin cruising. To comply with Florida and Texas no-ask laws schedule hybrid (vaccinated/un-vaccinated) cruises for all ages. At least folks would have a choice and RC along with the associated cruise business could start making money.

[JeffB]

41 minutes ago, DunwoodyDad said:

To me asking vaccinated people to wear masks indoors in certain situations just doesn’t align to what is happening everywhere in the US at this point.   

You're correct. It doesn't. I'd argue that it is RCL behind on the current COVID science and, surprisingly, its the CDC that seems to have guidance for the vaccinated and unvaccinated pretty much spot on.

OK, RCL could be wrong here, right? Well, there's no backing down now. The health protocols for a hybrid pax manifest from FL ports has been published. They've stepped in it and it's not going to scrape off very easily.

RCL has about two weeks to figure out a graceful way to back out of this ...... or make cruising from FL ports awfully unappealing. I'm wondering if this isn't corporate planning for a worst case scenario that they feel has a low probability of coming to pass. The accommodation of families with this policy entices family bookings, even though it is an onerous process. While RCLs policy stands in sharp contrast with the rest of the lines, it could turn out to a brilliant move, especially if they know things we don't know involving Governor Desantis or the FL law suit outcome...... or it could blow up in their faces.

[ChrisK2793]

CELEBRITY …… just announced the same protocols as RCL ……. Sounds like they may no longer be vaccinated only ……

https://www.cruisecritic.com/ab/agents/variation-a/news/6211/?source=99360&fbclid=IwAR3O63dWfoJXNU-U_kr8ba0vB83VFpvZwJViYJVjQDco1hpx0ARl_m8kihU

[WhiteSoxFan]

Celebrity is approved to sail under conditional sailings, they are not doing any test sailings so they must comply with the 95% condition or get test sailings approved.  With the Edge and Equinox all set and approved to sail I don't see them changing things.  It will be interesting how they plan to comply with the 95% condition.

[AshleyDillo]

It's really hard to know how diluted the experience is going to be, even with these new protocols. 

Masks are required indoors for everyone, which to me makes sense because there's no other way to police between the vaccinated and unvaccinated and force the mask wearing.  If you read the protocols, they don't mention an identifier for the vaccinated.  They do mention you need to have your SeaPass card for entrance into venues, which I imagine will have your vaccination status encoded on it.  They can use the SeaPass to track everyone on the ship for potential contract tracing issues and also use it for entrance for the vaccinated-only lounges, shows, etc.  

They mention specific venues or lounges may be for the vaccinated only, and in there folks will be allowed to be without masks.  They don't go into details about which venues these will be, so it's hard to determine how restricted the unvaccinated will be. 

I see the vaccinated only areas as being akin to those mask-free relaxation stations at Disney World where you could sit with your masks off.  I would think it would be limited to only a few lounges, and probably not ones where they hold activities.  The lounges with activities they would keep hybrid or do different sessions if needed.  The options for everything will be either vaccinated-only or hybrid.  

The great thing is that they are offering full refunds (at least for the July Freedom sailings) if you aren't happy about the situation.  

 

[DunwoodyDad]

RCL must be running the numbers of incremental bookings from the non-vaccinated plus families with kids under 12 that will sail under these conditions versus folks that are vaccinated and want a mask-free experience.  (The RCL diehards are a given.) I guess the spreadsheet says go with the former especially given the other lines appear to be going with the latter.
 

My family of 2 adults and 4 “kids” of 15-20 who are all vaccinated don’t want to deal with these compexities for sure. 

[ChrisK2793]

https://www.flgov.com/2021/06/18/governor-desantis-wins-major-victory-to-protect-floridas-cruise-industry/?fbclid=IwAR2gxVzfA3Wbsefx39RV9xtRI9XdsskL6Z_EYZIvw2J2v4edydq8wZm-8y4

[Zambia-Zaire]

22 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

The whole reason is to try to discourage unvaccinated adults from cruising.  

 

This make utterly no sense whatsoever....why would a multi-billion dollar company, segregate a ship with clearly different protocols(which is not a good "PR" look), just to "Discourage" non-vax passengers from sailing...when the multi-billion dollar company can simply, just say "Vax Only Cruise" like what's currently happening on Adventure otS.

This clearly an attempt by RCG to maximize revenue...by any means necessary. Which is understandable business decision, imo opinion; because, of the huge amount of unnecessary occurred debt, by all these cruise lines. Make no mistake about it....this is maximize revenue generating decision, by playing both sides(cake & pie) of newly implementing Laws. Cruising is risking, not just the probability of an outbreak on any particular cruise...but the amount of potential monies loss by passengers, be it testing added expense, interruptions, infection(vax or un-vax), forfeit travel plans, possible separation or removal of family members, cost to get back into the States, etc    

10 hours ago, Jill said:

These new protocols really are to discourage those who are not vaccinated to not sail for now. You’ll get the die hards but your average cruiser probably will wait. 
 

Also.....From a business standpoint: Royal has an opportunity here to snag those Disney cruisers. Disney is shutdown. There’s no way they can start anytime soon. The unvaccinated kids would outnumber vaccinated adults. This is Royal’s chance to wow them over. 

This makes no sense as well....a "shrewd" business opportunity to snag passengers, in the mist of a so-called "pandemic", where as, all cruise lines are in the same boat. Ha Ha...looky-there...I made a pun too.  

[mworkman]

6 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

And by December the landscape will have changed again.  I expect changes every month or two as more ships sail and we see the results.

Then it will be the flu…if you haven’t been vaccinated for the flu..you can’t cruise.

[Ogilthorpe]

34 minutes ago, mworkman said:

Then it will be the flu…if you haven’t been vaccinated for the flu..you can’t cruise.

Good Evening, and Welcome to SlipperySlope of the Seas ...

[Traveler]

One thing we can be sure about , it's not the final protocols. No need to worry,  it will change so many times more.

[AshleyDillo]

3 hours ago, Zambia-Zaire said:

when the multi-billion dollar company can simply, just say "Vax Only Cruise" like what's currently happening on Adventure otS

And they are doing that, just not in Florida because they aren't allowed to.

[JimnKathy]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:54 AM, WhiteSoxFan said:

And by December the landscape will have changed again.  I expect changes every month or two as more ships sail and we see the results.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 12:20 PM, DublinFC said:

I am praying this is exactly what happens.  

We sail Symphony in late September, and no doubt the results of the upcoming test cruises will largely determine the onboard experience as we all sail later this summer and into the fall season.

My best guess is that fully-vaxxed folks (that's us) will experience almost zero stipulations while on the ship. If all we have to do is wear a mask while walking inside a crowded, public area, we will be totally thrilled to be sailing again.

Happy sailing to all!  

[smokeybandit]

The test cruises mean nothing. They're a meaningless step the CDC is making cruise lines do.  There's nothing that has to occur during a test cruise that will present any challenge or concern. I guess my point is don't expect any protocols to change due to the outcomes of test cruises.

[Zambia-Zaire]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:09 PM, AshleyDillo said:

And they are doing that, just not in Florida because they aren't allowed to.

Ok....your point being what??? 

[MrMarc]

I love kids, however this is a discussion about vaccinated vs. unvacinated.  I don't think the reason for not being vaccinated has any bearing on the question.  If it does, then what about adults who cannot take it for medical reasons?  The separation is for health reasons, not a punishment. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, fair or unfair.  It just seems totally inconsistent if the reason a person is not vaccinated matters, then the entire purpose of the exercise becomes invalid.

[smokeybandit]

Someone posted on facebook that the RC app now shows which activities are for vax only

[Marlena]

27 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Someone posted on facebook that the RC app now shows which activities are for vax only

Were there any stand outs?

[smokeybandit]

It was just a screenshot

 

[Lovetocruise2002]

On 6/24/2021 at 4:18 PM, smokeybandit said:

It was just a screenshot

Was that from a July sailing?  I just check my app for my August sailing and there is nothing like that yet.

[smokeybandit]

10 minutes ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

Was that from a July sailing?  I just check my app for my August sailing and there is nothing like that yet.

I would assume since the links to make reservations are active

[cruisellama]

1 hour ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

Was that from a July sailing?  I just check my app for my August sailing and there is nothing like that yet.

The activities don't load up until closer to the departure.   Remember they're still working on the fun.  There will be no fun before its time. 

[CGTLH]

Crazy seeing the most recent restrictions onboard for Freedom.

Ref: https://www.royalcaribbean.com/the-healthy-sail-center/getting-ready-to-cruise?dPort=miami

Onboard the Ship

Venue Access
Since the majority of our guests will be vaccinated on Freedom of the Seas, there will be venues and events restricted to vaccinated guests only. We’ll do our best to create opportunities for all guests to enjoy their time with us. Please note, your SeaPass card will be required to access lounges, shows and dining venues, so keep it handy at all times during your cruise.

Masks and Physical Distancing
When indoors, CDC guidelines require all guests 2 and older to wear masks unless they are actively eating or drinking. The CDC does make allowances for guests to remove their masks in venues and events dedicated to fully vaccinated parties. Since so many of our guests are vaccinated, you’ll find plenty of these opportunities.

Masks are not required in your stateroom when you are with your traveling party, outside on the open decks, or at Perfect Day at CocoCay, unless in a crowded setting. In the coming days, we are expecting updated guidance from the CDC on mask policies for vaccinated guests in shared spaces and will update you at that time.

You’ll find the entire ship and boarding process set up to allow for physical distancing, which is encouraged whenever interacting with those outside of your traveling party.

Dining
The Main Dining Room, which spans two decks, will have one deck for everyone, which includes parties with both vaccinated and unvaccinated guests, such as parents and unvaccinated children. The other deck will be for vaccinated parties. My Time Dining will not be available to parties that include unvaccinated guests.

Specialty restaurants will be open to everyone, as will grab-and-go cafes. If you prefer a buffet, Windjammer will be open to everyone for breakfast and lunch, and the food will be served by our crew. We recommend that you make dining reservations via Cruise Planner before your cruise or the Royal Caribbean app onboard.

Bars and Lounges
Many bars and lounges will be open to everyone and others will be available to vaccinated guests only. There will be crew stationed nearby and signage to help direct guests.

Casino
Given the casino’s physical constraints, there is not enough space to accommodate everyone. Given most of our adult guests are vaccinated, the casino will be open to vaccinated guests only.

Fitness and Spa
The Fitness Center will have dedicated operating hours for everyone as well as hours reserved for vaccinated guests only. Salon services will be available to everyone but given the enclosed space and longer length of spa services, the treatment rooms used to provide facials, massages and other services will only be available to vaccinated guests.

Entertainment
Entertainment venues will offer spaced seating and more showtimes throughout your cruise. Select showtimes will be for everyone and other showtimes for vaccinated guests only. Be sure to make show reservations once onboard using the Royal Caribbean app.

Diamond Lounge for Loyalty Members
The Diamond Lounge will be open and operating at 50 percent capacity to allow for physical distancing.

Adventure Ocean and Teen Lounges
Youth spaces will be open to all children and teens.

[AshleyDillo]

17 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Casino
Given the casino’s physical constraints, there is not enough space to accommodate everyone. Given most of our adult guests are vaccinated, the casino will be open to vaccinated guests only.

Woooo, boy.  Folks aren't going to be happy about this one, right @WAAAYTOOO?

[Marlena]

44 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Given the casino’s physical constraints, there is not enough space to accommodate everyone. Given most of our adult guests are vaccinated, the casino will be open to vaccinated guests only.

Who is gonna tell my 6 year old she can't play blackjack?????  

[CGTLH]

9 minutes ago, Marlena said:

Who is gonna tell my 6 year old she can't play blackjack?????  

Other fun question is will they allow use of the casino as a pass through for all.

[Cruising With JT]

Wow, I almost booked Freedom in July! I am on Freedom in November, fingers crossed things look a little better by then! All these restrictions and such are happening because it is the restart...do it safely... and continue on safely but with less restrictions hopefully.