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Vax/Unvax Onboard Enforcement


nate91

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1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

We may get an indication what protocols RC will use when the Edge sails this weekend.  It will be interesting to see how Celebrity attempts to weave its way around the 95% vaccine requirement and the Florida law.

I fully expect to see fairly quick evolution of protocols as more sailings occur.  Cruising in three months may be very different than it is now.

However, IF Edge is able to pull off the 95% threshold, the CDC published protocol allows for no masks for everyone. Correct, or am I mistaken?

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11 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

However, IF Edge is able to pull off the 95% threshold, the CDC published protocol allows for no masks for everyone. Correct, or am I mistaken?

I do not think that the CDC has protocols for that.  What they do say is that if you sale with 95% vaxxed then you do not have to do test sailings.

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23 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

I do not think that the CDC has protocols for that.  What they do say is that if you sale with 95% vaxxed then you do not have to do test sailings.

That is my understanding as well. When states started throwing curveballs at the cruise lines with the no mandatory vaccine questions stuff but the lines figured out that these laws made it ok to have pax volunteer that information, that was a new kind of hybrid mix. OTH, I think it makes complete sense that if you hit that 95% threshold, masks become a personal choice for everyone aboard.

I don't think there is a study that reveals risks of infection as a function of % not vaccinated in a congregate setting. The CDC's guidance for review is here, a link much better than the CDC web site for the purposes of clarity and brevity is below that:

With the new CDC recommendations (Box), fully vaccinated people can share a meal or movie night in their private residence, without masks or physical distancing. Fully vaccinated people can also do these things with unvaccinated family and friends; however, prevention measures (such as wearing masks and physical distancing) should be maintained if any unvaccinated people are at risk of severe COVID-19 or if multiple households of unvaccinated people are mixing together.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777536

IMO, the risks of an unvaxed person, not masking and transmitting the virus to a vaccinated and unmasked person is so low as, under normal circumstances, to not worry about it. But aboard ship, officially classified as a congregate setting and with the lines wishing to keep risk as close to zero as possible for obvious reasons, I'd not be surprised that any hybrid mix of pax will precipitate a mask mandate in selected venues, not all, but selected ones. I won't speculate there. Lets see what comes out of the Edge sailing on the 26th.

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On 6/12/2021 at 3:12 AM, CruiseRoyalDad said:

The frustration would be entirely with Royal never the crew members that would be unjust and uncalled for. The crew members are indeed, as you said, enforcing their company's mandate, as ill advised as that mandate may be in some of our opinions. Those anecdotal examples from Chicago presented by other posters are unkind. It would be hard to recollect a time when a crew member on a Royal ship has treated me or my family poorly, they deserve all of the love and respect they give us returned right back to them. They also deserve their jobs not to be held hostage by irrational CDC mandates that have failed to prevent covid on fully vaccinated cruise #1. 

But may have prevented a full outbreak on cruise #1

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You may be correct, but I see two completely different situations. For the NFL players, some may not mind being treated like second class citizens when they are being paid several million a year to put up with the inconvenience. Cruise passengers,  on the other hand, are paying to be onboard and can choose to spend their money elsewhere.  

I can see the NFL stumbling into a PR disaster when, for example, an MVP candidate won't play along with their tactics.

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25 minutes ago, Ogilthorpe said:

You may be correct, but I see two completely different situations. For the NFL players, some may not mind being treated like second class citizens when they are being paid several million a year to put up with the inconvenience. Cruise passengers,  on the other hand, are paying to be onboard and can choose to spend their money elsewhere.  

I can see the NFL stumbling into a PR disaster when, for example, an MVP candidate won't play along with their tactics.

NFL minimum salary this year is an even $660,000. Of course, players will lose some of that through taxes, agent fees, and so forth.  that is minimum, but over half of NFL players make less than a million and their average earnings last about 3 years.  within the next 5-10 years it is also noted that about ~70% of all NFL players will file bankruptcy in the next 5 to 10 years.

And remember if the NFL wants to play hardball the EEOC and Federal Courts have already ruled that employers are allowed to condition employment on vaccination status.

 

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I really wish these vaccine threads would be locked and stop getting created.  I think it’s time that we all move on.  We all know what the policies and requirements are and no matter what our individual opinions are on it, there continued conversations about them are not productive. I’m sure there are other internet locations where people e can debate the topic.

 

im sure policies will change over time, but at the end of the day the choice is to follow the policy or not participate.

 

stay safe

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55 minutes ago, Reigert2008 said:

We all know what the policies and requirements are and no matter what our individual opinions are on it, there continued conversations ...

I would agree completely if we truly knew what the rules and options were. At this juncture, we only know what the rules are for today, and the rules change frequently and are open ended. What may be more of a concern for many, the restrictions have been suggested and not stated: ambiguous at best. 

Until we know whether 40% of us will ultimately be excluded from cruising, I believe it will be a ongoing discussion. 

 

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12 hours ago, Ogilthorpe said:

I would agree completely if we truly knew what the rules and options were. At this juncture, we only know what the rules are for today, and the rules change frequently and are open ended. What may be more of a concern for many, the restrictions have been suggested and not stated: ambiguous at best. 

Until we know whether 40% of us will ultimately be excluded from cruising, I believe it will be a ongoing discussion. 

 

This has been the situation in the whole country since the beginning of the epidemic. 

RC is going to make the best decisions they can each day to run their business. The best way they can fo this is to get their ships cruising with paying passengers. They will make decisions based on CDC requirements, global Covid issues affecting ports of call, and what their customers are willing to pay for. Things will change daily because those 2 things are changing daily.

 

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6 hours ago, wordell1 said:

This has been the situation in the whole country since the beginning of the epidemic.

I blame this on a failure of our federal government to act appropriately on the recommendations of the CDC.

We should have had a Federal mandate to mask, not let each state develop a hodge podge of regulations.

We should have made testing mandatory to fly domestically early on, we should now have a negative test result or proof of vaccination required to fly domestically today.

The federal government should have followed the science, much like your right to smoke does not eclipse my right to clean air, that is why all federal buildings have a ban on smoking and it is restricted to not within 50 ft of any and all entrances on federal property.

JMHO and you have a right to disagree

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I think it is a coin toss....as a half black woman, separate but equal does rub me the wrong way. However as said woman who has been working in restaurant business during Covid,  I kind of agree. When people get to drinking and enjoying themselves, protocols go out the window. I have had Covid and been vaccinate and understand my risk is minimized but at the same time I don't want to be sick at all. Therefore to minimize the risk I can understand having designated areas for the vaccinated and non-vaccinated. Whatever makes my cruise safe and fun, is what I am all about.

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41 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Glad to see this line: Passengers who don’t want to pay for the additional testing or follow the newly announced protocols for the ship can cancel the trip for a full refund, Royal Caribbean said.

Edited by CGTLH
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1 hour ago, nate91 said:

I guess we know now, wristbands will be required and a hole will be punched in the SeaPass card.

 

Does anyone else feel very uncomfortable with the separate venues and areas for the two different classes of people? Makes me very uneasy.

I think two classes of people is the only way to have a mixed vaccination status passenger manifest at least this early on in the restart.  While I would rather it be all vaccinated this is an acceptable compromise.   

But technically there are 4 classes of people here:

1) suite Vax

2) suite non-vax

3) non-suite Vax

4) non-suite non Vax.

?

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28 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Glad to see this line: Passengers who don’t want to pay for the additional testing or follow the newly announced protocols for the ship can cancel the trip for a full refund, Royal Caribbean said.

I agree that it is encouraging that RCCL is taking this approach. Unfortunately, the scope, at this time is quite narrow: Miami, Freedom of the Seas, July. Outside of those criteria we still have no real answers. 

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51 minutes ago, Ogilthorpe said:

I agree that it is encouraging that RCCL is taking this approach. Unfortunately, the scope, at this time is quite narrow: Miami, Freedom of the Seas, July. Outside of those criteria we still have no real answers. 

If you go to Royal's site, there is a drop down menu for each port.

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1 hour ago, CGTLH said:

Glad to see this line: Passengers who don’t want to pay for the additional testing or follow the newly announced protocols for the ship can cancel the trip for a full refund, Royal Caribbean said.

Royal is being more than generous here.  This should be enough to satisfy everyone.

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55 minutes ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

If you go to Royal's site, there is a drop down menu for each port.

You are correct they have information for other ports, but only the Miami rules accommodate unvaccinated adult passengers at this time.

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3 hours ago, nate91 said:

I guess we know now, wristbands will be required and a hole will be punched in the SeaPass card.

 

Does anyone else feel very uncomfortable with the separate venues and areas for the two different classes of people? Makes me very uneasy.

Not in the least. 
 

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3 hours ago, VoidoftheSeas said:

These seem reasonable and as expected. It's a bit unclear if the restrictions also apply to unvaxxed kids under the age threshold. That would be a helpful clarification for planning. My wife and parents and I all have the shots, but my kids are still too young.

Exactly! Will we be denied restaurants etc because we have a child who has yet to be offered the vaccine? 

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1 hour ago, Marlena said:

Exactly! Will we be denied restaurants etc because we have a child who has yet to be offered the vaccine? 


RIGHT!!!  If you can’t get in restaurants and venues because your kids aren’t eligible, then why would you even waste your time paying to go on the cruise?  

 

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7 hours ago, Ampurp85 said:

I think it is a coin toss....as a half black woman, separate but equal does rub me the wrong way. However as said woman who has been working in restaurant business during Covid,  I kind of agree. When people get to drinking and enjoying themselves, protocols go out the window. I have had Covid and been vaccinate and understand my risk is minimized but at the same time I don't want to be sick at all. Therefore to minimize the risk I can understand having designated areas for the vaccinated and non-vaccinated. Whatever makes my cruise safe and fun, is what I am all about.

Eloquently put. Race, creed, sex, color, orientation or religion are not things most people want separate treatment for but this is different because it is based on risk as you pointed out. You spoke of your personal risk but I contend its also a risk to the industry. In California you can choose to build a home where it regularly experiences wildfires but you can't get fire insurance and if you can you will pay much more due to risk. When my kids were teens, their car insurance cost more, due to documented risk. If cruises end up with just a few cases onboard the news will spread like wildfire and cancellation of whole cruises will cost them millions. Especially in the first few months, they need it to go perfectly, everyone is watching. In time capacity will increase and rules relaxed but these first few months are critical to their future, they are essentially test cruises with paying customers. They don't want to tell the unvaxed they can't go, but they really don't want them to go in the beginning or at least they want very few to go all in the name of risk management. I support individual rights but I also understand that those do not override a private company's need to minimize risk at such a pivotal juncture.

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14 hours ago, nate91 said:

Does anyone else feel very uncomfortable with the separate venues and areas for the two different classes of people? Makes me very uneasy.

Yes. At first I just acknowledged, “they are implementing the CDC’s suggestion of vaccination zones which can have relaxed rules,” right?  Then I woke up this morning thinking about it. It is segregation.  
 

None of the passengers will get the cruise experience they paid for or expect, as they will have venues or entertainment limited to set times for their “status”.   Royal even said “unvaccinated , no my time dining,”.  Families with mixed status due to a child under 12 are stuck in the middle.  
 

The more I reflect on it, the more I think Royal is wrong in taking this approach in Florida.  I’m vaccinated, but will not play the “you don’t belong here game”.  Or the “You can join in when, and where, we say you can” game.  Royal is the only cruise line playing this game.  It’s despicable in my opinion. 
 

My booked cruises are not out of Florida.  But if Royal rolls this out to ships I am booked on, I will cancel before taking part in this sad game.

 

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1 hour ago, Zurc said:

Yes. At first I just acknowledged, “they are implementing the CDC’s suggestion of vaccination zones which can have relaxed rules,” right?  Then I woke up this morning thinking about it. It is segregation.  

Segregation happens all the time.  There's a difference though between segregation for an immutable charactaristic (race/gender/sexuality/etc) which is what the word implies for most people and segregation based on choice or events.

To keep this about cruising

On a ship I'm not allowed into the suite lounge, sundeck, costal kitchen, or suite area on Labadee because I choose not to book a suite.

I'm not allowed in the kids or teen area because I'm not a kid or a teen.

I'm not allowed in crew areas because I'm not crew.

I can't go to key only times on the flowrider because I didn't buy the key, and I'm not a huge fan of falling down non stop.

The list goes on both on cruises and on land.

Other cruise lines aren't taking this approach because other cruise lines just aren't letting unvaccinated people on to begin with, Royal is at least giving people the option of what they want to do.  

People (and companies) are free to make the choices they want, those choices have consequences though, sometimes good, sometimes bad.

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31 minutes ago, joshgates said:

Segregation happens all the time.  There's a difference though between segregation for an immutable charactaristic (race/gender/sexuality/etc) which is what the word implies for most people and segregation based on choice or events.

To keep this about cruising

On a ship I'm not allowed into the suite lounge, sundeck, costal kitchen, or suite area on Labadee because I choose not to book a suite.

 

I understand your point.   But those rules were based on category booked, or age (kids club).  This is completely different approach by Royal.  Two families in the same category cabin, maybe next to each other, are now being limited to some venues or limited times.  They paid the same, hypothetically.  Yet both are receiving a completely different cruise than booked. 
 

how far will this segregation, or limited hours apply?  I am neither Diamond nor in a full Suite,   But I can envision the Suite Lounge May designate different sides (or corners?) for vaccine status, or mixed status.  After all, Suite Guests, vaccinated or not, all paid for the right to use the Suite Lounge.   So masks for all will apply.   Can you imagine the uproar. 
 

Diamond Lounge may designate the first 1-1/2 hours for vaccinated D and up guests, and last 1-1/2 hours for unvaccinated D and up guests.    See how personal this can get?  
 

I think the perceived segregation will backfire on Royal.  It’s a sad situation.

 

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Personally I think we just need to take a deep breath and let thing play out a bit.  Royal is trying its best to comply with the regulations and laws as they currently exist.  We've all seen how fast things are changing in the last few months.  

That said I do think that by putting these rules in place they may be trying to incentivize people that may be on the fence about getting vaxxed.

  

I

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17 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

Personally I think we just need to take a deep breath and let thing play out a bit.  Royal is trying its best to comply with the regulations and laws as they currently exist.  We've all seen how fast things are changing in the last few months.  

That said I do think that by putting these rules in place they may be trying to incentivize people that may be on the fence about getting vaxxed.

  

I

I agree about taking a breath.  I may be overreacting.  Honestly, it is not Royal’s place to try to provide an incentive to get people vaccinated.  It is Royal’s duty to provide the safest, less COVID risk sailing, while providing guests the experience they paid for. The experience is where they will be failing.
 

Royal’s Freedom protocols are standing out (and not in a favorable way) versus the approaches by Celebrity, Carnival and NCL.  

 

Edited by Zurc
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NCL's approach of "Got kids, get lost" is drawing a lot of fire and criticism so I can see why Royal is trying not to alienate families - that's their core target consumer.  

The CDC is trying to push the vaccine and motivate anyone on the fence to get it done so they have created regulations in the CSO to that end.  Cruise lines have a choice to promote that vaccine push or go with a vaccine requirement to board like NCL has.  Those are the two choices the CDC has given them.

This is on the CDC and Florida, our governments.  This isn't Royal's doing.

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Royal is doing its best in a very fluid situation. They have to put safety first, because the last thing they need is more bad covid press.

The higher the vaccination rate, and therefore the more infrequent the new variants, the sooner things will get closer to normal.

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55 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan said:

Personally I think we just need to take a deep breath and let thing play out a bit.  Royal is trying its best to comply with the regulations and laws as they currently exist.  We've all seen how fast things are changing in the last few months.  

That said I do think that by putting these rules in place they may be trying to incentivize people that may be on the fence about getting vaxxed.

  

I

I agree. This entire situation is very fluid at the moment. What is said today may be completely different than what is said tomorrow. 

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8 minutes ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

I agree. This entire situation is very fluid at the moment. What is said today may be completely different than what is said tomorrow. 

There 's no point to getting upset right now unless you happen to be booked on one of these first cruises.  Things are going to change.

I'm happy my next two cruises are on Celebrity.

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