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Vax/Unvax Onboard Enforcement


nate91

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Wanted to share my thoughts on this and see what others think. RCI has made it clear that on cruises where vaccines are "highly recommended" that there will be an upfront testing cost for unvacccinated passengers. They have also mentioned additional protocols, which I think many of us assume means masks. I'm wondering how they will enforce these onboard protocols, eg if staff see someone not wearing a mask, how will they know if they are vaxxed? I can only think of a few options:

1. Market for vaxxed, such as a wristband. This would have to be replaced every day throughout the cruise though, as wristbands don't last, and it would be VERY easy for someone to share their wristbands. They could also do a sticker on the SEAPASS card, but then no one would see it unless the person was paying for something. 

2. Do what every grocery store in America seems to be doing and leave it up to the honor system.

Anyone think of any other options than these two? First one puts a lot of pressure on the staff and enforcement, and second one is essentially the same as recommending that unvax on the ship wear a mask but not requiring.

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29 minutes ago, JSB_Z51 said:

Not to HIjack the OP's thread - The requirements of the cruise have changed, additional cost for the unvaxed, masks etc.  Is that enough of a change to get a refund?  


RCL hasn’t released any guidance for cruises leaving from the US yet.  They closest we have is the following for cruises leaving from the BAHAMAS …….. I’m thinking leaving from the US shouldn’t be much different …… hopefully …..

 

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49 minutes ago, JSB_Z51 said:

Not to HIjack the OP's thread - The requirements of the cruise have changed, additional cost for the unvaxed, masks etc.  Is that enough of a change to get a refund?  

Unfortunately the only thing that will qualify for a full refund at this point is if Royal cancels the cruise. 

That may change when they officially announce the protocols, but they still have Cruise With Confidence available and may only offer that FCC as the option.

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17 hours ago, nate91 said:

1. Market for vaxxed, such as a wristband. This would have to be replaced every day throughout the cruise though, as wristbands don't last, and it would be VERY easy for someone to share their wristbands. They could also do a sticker on the SEAPASS card, but then no one would see it unless the person was paying for something.

Been to a number of resorts where I had to wear a wrist band the whole time even over a week in length.  Only one had to have one replaced.

If properly applied its pretty hard to even get it off with out evident damage, can't see sharing as a problem

But I'm ok with whatever approach they choose, just as long as I'm not required to mask while on my cruise

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I just really hope it's not the honor system....the honor system is bunch of bull.

But I also have to wonder if people will fight the staff on the cruise like they do in stores or on public transit...here in Chicago, most bus drivers and train operators have decided it's not worth their personal safety to enforce the FEDERAL mask mandate because people get nasty about being told to do it...

I hope not...the crew is already putting up with so much...

 

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@CrimsonCruiserI also live in Chicago and have seen the nastiness when workers try to enforce the rules. My mother works for Jewel foods and a customer beat one of the employees with a cucumber because they were enforcing the federal law. The honor system is crap, Chicago is only 41% vaxxed but people come in to my restaurant with no mask all the time, claiming to be. We aren't supposed to ask to see their card so..... I hope people on a cruise are bit more refined than that.

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14 minutes ago, Ampurp85 said:

@CrimsonCruiserI also live in Chicago and have seen the nastiness when workers try to enforce the rules. My mother works for Jewel foods and a customer beat one of the employees with a cucumber because they were enforcing the federal law. The honor system is crap, Chicago is only 41% vaxxed but people come in to my restaurant with no mask all the time, claiming to be. We aren't supposed to ask to see their card so..... I hope people on a cruise are bit more refined than that.

OMG that's awful! I hope she's okay...

But yeah...seeing and hearing about this on a daily basis really made me so angry when the CDC first said vaxxed folks could drop the masks because I immediately knew it was opening the door for anyone and everyone who wanted to stop wearing them to do so, regardless of vaxxed status. *sigh* here's hoping the cruisers are a more honest and respectful bunch...

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@CruiseRoyalDad I am all for letting people live their best lives. My only issue is people who won't respect laws or criteria put in place. If a restaurant requires mask until sitting, or a grocery store or plane....comply or don't patronize. I didn't post about singling people out, this is about enforcing the rules.

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1 hour ago, Ampurp85 said:

@CruiseRoyalDad I am all for letting people live their best lives. My only issue is people who won't respect laws or criteria put in place. If a restaurant requires mask until sitting, or a grocery store or plane....comply or don't patronize. I didn't post about singling people out, this is about enforcing the rules.

I think we agree there. But where our opinions diverge is the line where business are allowed to deny people service and in doing so treat others differently because of a qualified set of characteristics, in this case decisions they make regarding their health. 

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@CruiseRoyalDad Not to go off topic but I agree about the health aspect as well. My only issue is the outcome of enforcing whatever criteria. Just be respectful to the people servicing you. It is not their fault what a company mandates. If RCG requires a different set of rules for vax/unvax, don't get mad at crew members for enforcing it.

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13 minutes ago, Ampurp85 said:

@CruiseRoyalDad Not to go off topic but I agree about the health aspect as well. My only issue is the outcome of enforcing whatever criteria. Just be respectful to the people servicing you. It is not their fault what a company mandates. If RCG requires a different set of rules for vax/unvax, don't get mad at crew members for enforcing it.

The frustration would be entirely with Royal never the crew members that would be unjust and uncalled for. The crew members are indeed, as you said, enforcing their company's mandate, as ill advised as that mandate may be in some of our opinions. Those anecdotal examples from Chicago presented by other posters are unkind. It would be hard to recollect a time when a crew member on a Royal ship has treated me or my family poorly, they deserve all of the love and respect they give us returned right back to them. They also deserve their jobs not to be held hostage by irrational CDC mandates that have failed to prevent covid on fully vaccinated cruise #1. 

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4 hours ago, Ampurp85 said:

@CrimsonCruiserI also live in Chicago and have seen the nastiness when workers try to enforce the rules. My mother works for Jewel foods and a customer beat one of the employees with a cucumber because they were enforcing the federal law. The honor system is crap, Chicago is only 41% vaxxed but people come in to my restaurant with no mask all the time, claiming to be. We aren't supposed to ask to see their card so..... I hope people on a cruise are bit more refined than that.

Of all the things that you think you're going to read - an employee being attacked with a cucumber was definitely not on my list (I don't mean to make light - but some things are so ridiculous).   This is horrific and my heart goes out to your mum.   I think this story is a perfect example of why mask mandates should remain in place until 75 or 80% of people have been fully vaccinated to offer real protection to those who are unable to be vaccinated because they are either immunocompromised or under age.   This pandemic has really shown people's true colours - both good and bad - but seems to have emphasized that a fair chunk of people will do what they want regardless of the consequences to others.

I hope she's okay.

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1 hour ago, Ampurp85 said:

@CruiseRoyalDad Not to go off topic but I agree about the health aspect as well. My only issue is the outcome of enforcing whatever criteria. Just be respectful to the people servicing you. It is not their fault what a company mandates. If RCG requires a different set of rules for vax/unvax, don't get mad at crew members for enforcing it.

Well if they are in international waters, the Captain is the authority so he/she may just  have any individuals disrespecting the crew sent to the brig or walk the plank!  ?

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2 hours ago, SpeedNoodles said:

I laugh whenever they put a wristband on me anywhere.  "I can totally get out of this", I tell them.  And I can. LOL

I think in this case, you want vaccinated people to have the wristbands so they don't want "to get out of it".  If wristbands are given to vaccinated people it's like an all access pass! ?

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2 hours ago, Jverge said:

I think in this case, you want vaccinated people to have the wristbands so they don't want "to get out of it".  If wristbands are given to vaccinated people it's like an all access pass! ?

Agreed on that point. I wouldn't take it off - just saying that I can ?

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There are a number of ways to implement the different policy for vax / unvax.  

More importantly how they handle violators of ship policy early on will contribute to the success of the policy.  The webinar I saw posted explained that it will be considered a violation of the guest conduct policy and their intention is to use existing process for this purpose.  Guest who violate the guest conduct policy are faced with disembarkment and in more severe cases they have stated they will not hesitate to decline to have those guests sail with them again.  In other words lifetime bans for more severe violations of protocols.  

That may not stop someone who has been using the drink package from getting a little carried away but I think once word of a few unvaxxed violators being removed from ships or banned for life comes out you have to ask the question if unvaxxed will be willing to take that risk.  

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Perhaps it will be the "honor system" with some tracking/enforcement.

I've been 'tracked down' onboard -- the beverage manager on Anthem once wanted to stop by and say hello to me.  One day I was sitting in the pub and having a drink, and after a few minutes he found me at my table.  I assume he put some sort of alert on my card and got a notification.

There are so many cameras onboard, one would think that security could easily be able to randomly track those who are not known to be vaccinated and make sure they are following any required additional protocols, such as indoor mask wearing.  Sort of like casino security looking for people cheating at table games.

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Something worth understanding re SARS2 Variant, Delta .......

Something interesting has emerged in COVID reporting. The MSM is providing balance. Some folks here are aware becasue you look for it but the folks who don't follow cruising like we do on the periphery, the ones who really need to know, don't. 

Cases have stopped falling in the US and the Delta variant is thought to be part of the problem. The other is regional low vaccination rates. Alone this news could be more of the dire consequences stuff we've become accustomed to from the press. But no ......for the first time since I've been watching (and bitching about it's absence in reporting on COVID) deaths and hospitalizations are loudly proclaimed as continuing to drop. The NYT had a graph that showed a steep rise in new cases in the UK - all of it due to Delta which describes 90% of new infections there. Superimposed on that graph of rising case numbers is deaths. That graph continues its steep decline. The UK is one of the few countries globally that has a high vaccination rate among it's population and the continuing steep decline in deaths is attributed to that. The message here is that falling vaccination rates in the US could slow a return to normalcy

Not mentioned in the NYT's piece is the path that Boris Johnson chose to pursue which was to get more shots into arms by significantly delaying administration of a second dose - that was recently reversed and at risk Brits are getting their second dose on an urgent basis. There's a good chance that the lack of a second dose is behind an increase in transmissibility and attendant steep rise in new cases. The takeaway here, also not mentioned in recent reports of this circumstance is that you can't draw parallels to the circumstance in the US which is approaching 60% of the population vaccinated at least once and 50% twice. The US also has a high per capita rate of SARS2 infections which is known to confer some degree of immunity - the level of it over time is unknown for now - but the US is theoretically closer to a level of herd immunity that may, by itself, tamp down R(0) [the rate of increase of infections) in the coming months.

The takeaway here is that the vaccines plus high levels of herd immunity are capable of restoring normalcy to cruising more quickly than most expected. However, those who are able and refusing to get vaccinated are hindering that effort. Those are the facts; this isn't about the politics or emotions surrounding vaccinations. The science does support that if you had COVID and developed detectable ABs, you're likelihood of contracting COVID is about 10X less than uninfected persons without ABs. However the data is preliminary, not peer reviewed and goes out to only 120d. After that the question is, how long does natural immunity last? We don't know - studies are ongoing but any loss of natural immunity might stoke a seasonal jump in infection prevalence this fall. We also know that the unvaccinated are more likely to be asymptomatic viral shedders to what degree others may become infected is not known but it is theoretically possible. We do know this: 6 months of vaccine availability has allowed small studies following people that got vaccinated in December. This group shows a stronger AB presence than those with natural immunity only. Vaccination significantly boosts an AB response from previous COVID infection IOW, vaccines produce a more robust immune response than natural immunity does. That unquestionably relates to lower rates of transmission across all age cohorts.

We know that relying on new case numbers as a measure of disease control and disease burden or lack of it is unreliable, there are better measures, right? Do politicians who ultimately make PH policy decisions know this? Is there a risk of an uninformed public putting pressure on these politicians andHHS/CDC officials to "do something" when case numbers rise in the US? Is shutting down cruising a highly visible, easy to do thing and is cruising at risk? The answer is obvious. Ways to reduce risks of that happening?: Keep case numbers low. Get vaccinated.

BTW, FL is in good shape. If you're interested this is the state report through 6/4/21. The graphs showing vaccine impact by age group says it all ......

http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/covid19-data/covid19_data_latest.pdf  

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To reply to the original question. I am not sure it is safe to assume that there will be a need to distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated; the protocols on the early sailings out of Florida could be masks for all, effectively treating everyone as unvaccinated.  

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13 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

To reply to the original question. I am not sure it is safe to assume that there will be a need to distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated; the protocols on the early sailings out of Florida could be masks for all, effectively treating everyone as unvaccinated.  

We may get an indication what protocols RC will use when the Edge sails this weekend.  It will be interesting to see how Celebrity attempts to weave its way around the 95% vaccine requirement and the Florida law.

I fully expect to see fairly quick evolution of protocols as more sailings occur.  Cruising in three months may be very different than it is now.

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49 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Something worth understanding re SARS2 Variant, Delta .......

Something interesting has emerged in COVID reporting. The MSM is providing balance. Some folks here are aware becasue you look for it but the folks who don't follow cruising like we do on the periphery, the ones who really need to know, don't. 

Cases have stopped falling in the US and the Delta variant is thought to be part of the problem. The other is regional low vaccination rates. Alone this news could be more of the dire consequences stuff we've become accustomed to from the press. But no ......for the first time since I've been watching (and bitching about it's absence in reporting on COVID) deaths and hospitalizations are loudly proclaimed as continuing to drop. The NYT had a graph that showed a steep rise in new cases in the UK - all of it due to Delta which describes 90% of new infections there. Superimposed on that graph of rising case numbers is deaths. That graph continues its steep decline. The UK is one of the few countries globally that has a high vaccination rate among it's population and the continuing steep decline in deaths is attributed to that. The message here is that falling vaccination rates in the US could slow a return to normalcy

Not mentioned in the NYT's piece is the path that Boris Johnson chose to pursue which was to get more shots into arms by significantly delaying administration of a second dose - that was recently reversed and at risk Brits are getting their second dose on an urgent basis. There's a good chance that the lack of a second dose is behind an increase in transmissibility and attendant steep rise in new cases. The takeaway here, also not mentioned in recent reports of this circumstance is that you can't draw parallels to the circumstance in the US which is approaching 60% of the population vaccinated at least once and 50% twice. The US also has a high per capita rate of SARS2 infections which is known to confer some degree of immunity - the level of it over time is unknown for now - but the US is theoretically closer to a level of herd immunity that may, by itself, tamp down R(0) [the rate of increase of infections) in the coming months.

The takeaway here is that the vaccines plus high levels of herd immunity are capable of restoring normalcy to cruising more quickly than most expected. However, those who are able and refusing to get vaccinated are hindering that effort. Those are the facts; this isn't about the politics or emotions surrounding vaccinations. The science does support that if you had COVID and developed detectable ABs, you're likelihood of contracting COVID is about 10X less than uninfected persons without ABs. However the data is preliminary, not peer reviewed and goes out to only 120d. After that the question is, how long does natural immunity last? We don't know - studies are ongoing but any loss of natural immunity might stoke a seasonal jump in infection prevalence this fall. We also know that the unvaccinated are more likely to be asymptomatic viral shedders to what degree others may become infected is not known but it is theoretically possible. We do know this: 6 months of vaccine availability has allowed small studies following people that got vaccinated in December. This group shows a stronger AB presence than those with natural immunity only. Vaccination significantly boosts an AB response from previous COVID infection IOW, vaccines produce a more robust immune response than natural immunity does. That unquestionably relates to lower rates of transmission across all age cohorts.

We know that relying on new case numbers as a measure of disease control and disease burden or lack of it is unreliable, there are better measures, right? Do politicians who ultimately make PH policy decisions know this? Is there a risk of an uninformed public putting pressure on these politicians andHHS/CDC officials to "do something" when case numbers rise in the US? Is shutting down cruising a highly visible, easy to do thing and is cruising at risk? The answer is obvious. Ways to reduce risks of that happening?: Keep case numbers low. Get vaccinated.

BTW, FL is in good shape. If you're interested this is the state report through 6/4/21. The graphs showing vaccine impact by age group says it all ......

http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/covid19-data/covid19_data_latest.pdf  

Thanks for the info Jeff. Yep, here in Florida we are in good shape. Vacs going up and cases coming down. 

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23 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

To reply to the original question. I am not sure it is safe to assume that there will be a need to distinguish between vaccinated and unvaccinated; the protocols on the early sailings out of Florida could be masks for all, effectively treating everyone as unvaccinated.  

Yeah, I kinda hijacked the thread ...... it's the only one talking about vaccines, don't want to start another and raise anxiety levels over this touchy subject. But your point is taken. 

I think the difficulty associated with onboard enforcement of separate protocols for the unvaccinated (anyone who does not wish to disclose vaccination status) is tricky. The cruise lines seem to have no problem with requiring those considered unvaccinated to pay for an RT-PCR COVID test, be tested and then wait for results before boarding. There are Rapid molecular RT-PCR tests and Rapid COVID Antigen tests with results available in < 1h. Still, a negative test result does not guarantee an unvaccinated guest hasn't been infected within the last 48-72h before antigens or viral particles are sufficient to register a positive. 

That's where the likelihood of a requirement that everyone sailing from US ports be masked increases. I like @WhiteSoxFantake on Apex. We need to be watching that boarding evolution and mask protocols.   

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1 hour ago, JeffB said:

Cases have stopped falling in the US and the Delta variant is thought to be part of the problem. The other is regional low vaccination rates. Alone this news could be more of the dire consequences stuff we've become accustomed to from the press. But no ......for the first time since I've been watching (and bitching about it's absence in reporting on COVID) deaths and hospitalizations are loudly proclaimed as continuing to drop.

It isn't an election year plus covid isn't so new anymore.

I am somewhat concerned that cases will spike again. Last summer without a vaccine cases went down too.  Was it because of the mitigation strategies or a seasonal variation in cases??  It never seems like there is one factor at play in anything related to the medical realm.  The cause and effect scenarios are always multifactorial.

I do wish this would all go away and we can get back to normal which includes cruising.  However, I think we all will need to adapt to a new normal.  The vaccine will likely be part of the new normal too.  The sooner we all can adapt the better ... otherwise the forces of natural selection will be at work.

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31 minutes ago, Dad2Cue said:

I do wish this would all go away and we can get back to normal which includes cruising.  However, I think we all will need to adapt to a new normal.  The vaccine will likely be part of the new normal too.

I cannot overstate the importance of vaccines to dampen R(0) - you'll recall this is the rate of acceleration of virus prevalence. Below 1.0 its receding, above it its proliferating. You'll also remember the term "flatten the curve." This was used early in the pandemic to change behaviors to accomplish a decrease in R(0). Promoting science based mitigation measures is still a meaningful objective. We've come a long way in determining what works and what doesn't; which costs to implement them are acceptable and which aren't. Vaccinations, along with good mitigation measures and herd immunity WILL work to dampen R(0).

The cruising public is particularly aware because we've been following the CSO and Healthy Sail Panel recommendations. We know some of the CSO is pretty wild and it would be nice if this just disappeared and the Healthy Sail Panel recommendations replaced it. We know how well things can go under the right set of circumstances. Either way, the lines are ready to sail with an onboard environment that is safer than anywhere else I can think of where there is regular human interaction and contact.

The US's cruising states may reach a level where as many vaccinations as possible have been administered and it may not be enough to fully dampen whatever rise is likely to occur seasonally. That does not mean cruise lines will again be shut down like they were in an all or nothing move by HHS/CDC in March 2020. 

I'd offer that even a rise in new case numbers without a rise in deaths and hospitalizations may not negatively affect cruising from US, European and Asian ports. That is because, as you say, we are entering a phase of new normalcy with respect to infectious diseases like SRAS2. These aren't going away. At the same time, a panic induced economic shut-down is not likely to be in the cards. Too costly on multiple levels. A rise in new case numbers absent an increase in disease burden - what we're seeing right now in the UK - allows officials making public health policy to accept more risks. The cruise industry is exceptionally well placed to deal with the new normal - better than other places for sure. Despite the generally poorly informed public regarding the actual risks of accelerating COVID infections on board a cruise ship and the risk of introducing large scale community spread at ports of call, all levels of government including public health officials understand that cruising can continue even with a reasonable up-tick in new cases - EU and Asian experience since June of 2020 has demonstrated it can be done conditionally and with that proviso safely.  There is no question that here in the US, HHS/CDC has become better informed about the risk-benefit-cost calculations involved in shutting the cruise industry down last year. I don't see that happening again going forward...... but I'm unabashedly a glass half full person.

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On 6/11/2021 at 7:17 PM, SpeedNoodles said:

Agreed on that point. I wouldn't take it off - just saying that I can ?

 

On 6/11/2021 at 5:01 PM, Jverge said:

I think in this case, you want vaccinated people to have the wristbands so they don't want "to get out of it".  If wristbands are given to vaccinated people it's like an all access pass! ?

What they really need to do is give every vaccinated guest a free cocktail each day of the cruise...now THAT would be some positive reinforcement. ???

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