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Royal Caribbean decides not to ask whether you have been vaccinated!


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43 minutes ago, Jill said:

I do not think this is as big a deal as some are making it out to be. 

Agree with @Jill. I have no position I wish to articulate here on whether or not people who want to cruise should get vaccinated. I do believe the concept of choice in most matters should prevail. 

The RCL news that the company will not require vaccination to board and sail on one of their sailings (not from Seattle .... yet) is probably a smart choice ..... and I have no doubt it is a calculated risk as I posted elsewhere.  RCL has run the numbers. Anecdotally, we know the risk of transmission aboard a sailing with a hybrid passenger manifest is low, not zero but low enough. We also know that a single infection aboard any sailing could result in outcomes we fear. OTH, RCL seems to be betting on damage control that will prevent  bad, yet predictable outcomes, i.e., rigid protocols for containment and passenger handling should a single infection be discovered.

I can argue that the path RCL and most cruise lines have followed - compliance with the provisions of the CSO - should isolate the lines from those potentially bad outcomes. That's the bet it would seem. I'd also argue that RCL, and others, want to sail out of FL because that's where the money is and have chosen a conciliatory instead of confrontational path with Governor Desantis. Could RCL challenge the Desantis prohibitions in court and prevail? I'm almost certain they could ...... but why muddy the waters and tie up operations for months doing that?  This is decision to not defend the high ground. 

Looking around the US at state's plans to incentivize vaccination, e.g., tickets for a concert featuring a popular music group were $89 for those vaccinated and $999 for those unvaccinated. There is not doubt that RCL has figured that onerous protocols (yet to be published!!!)  for the unvaccinated compared to complete freedom for the vaccinated will produce somewhere around a 90% vaccinated passenger manifest.

Smart move. I wonder what Celebrity will do with it's July and August sailings aboard Edge from PEV? I'm booked on an August sailing.

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8 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Agree with @Jill. I have no position I wish to articulate here on whether or not people who want to cruise should get vaccinated. I do believe the concept of choice in most matters should prevail. 

The RCL news that the company will not require vaccination to board and sail on one of their sailings is probably a smart choice ..... and I have no doubt it is a calculated risk as I posted elsewhere.  RCL has run the numbers. Anecdotally, we know the risk of transmission aboard a sailing with a hybrid passenger manifest is low, not zero but low enough. We also know that a single infection aboard any sailing could result in outcomes we fear. OTH, RCL seems to be betting on damage control that will prevent  bad, yet predictable outcomes, i.e., rigid protocols for containment and passenger handling should a single infection be discovered.

I can argue that the path RCL and most cruise lines have followed - compliance with the provisions of the CSO - should isolate the lines from those potentially bad outcomes. That's the bet it would seem. I'd also argue that RCL, and others, want to sail out of FL because that's where the money is and have chosen a conciliatory instead of confrontational path with Governor Desantis. Could RCL challenge the Desantis prohibitions in court and prevail? I'm almost certain they could ...... but why muddy the waters and tie up operations for months doing that?  This is decision to not defend the high ground. 

Looking around the US at state's plans to incentivize vaccination, e.g., tickets for a concert featuring a popular music group were $89 for those vaccinated and $999 for those unvaccinated. There is not doubt that RCL has figured that onerous protocols (yet to be published!!!)  for the unvaccinated compared to complete freedom for the vaccinated will produce somewhere around a 90% vaccinated passenger manifest.

Smart move. I wonder what Celebrity will do with it's July and August sailings aboard Edge from PEV? I'm booked on an August sailing.

Agree.  We are probably discussing the difference between 95% and 85%.  Which probably doesn’t change the numbers that much given it doesn’t sound like you pick this up by passing someone in a hallway.  I understand the concern about the cruise shutting down, but look what happened on the Odyssey trip over.  They had a few positives in their crew and they dropped them off and kept going.

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12 hours ago, CruiseGus said:

and not get deathly sick.  just thinking that is the main point here

Yes, you are absolutely correct that you can get "deathly sick" from Covid19 on a ship, but let's not forget the other things that could put passengers with compromises (like the ones the CDC has listed if exposed to Covid19) at risk.?

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Here is something that might blow some people's minds. 

Currently, not everyone the works in the health care industry is vaccinated because they have a choice. Rules are changing everyday in which what PPE is being required working in this field. 

Soon, the mask mandate is going to be lifted for those individuals in this field to wear masks.  

Just our of curiosity, for those on this blog who work in the health care industry, did your employer make you get the vaccine?  I personally, haven't heard of many people forced or mandated to get one.  I believe in most cases it was the CHOICE of the individual. 

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Going to share a theory I had yesterday on the Carnival news from yesterday.  I wonder if Carnival put that out there for leverage.  Up until yesterday they seemed on the track that Royal announced.  I wonder if Royal was getting concessions in the back and forth on the mandate and Carnival decided they needed some leverage in their discussions.

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Lot of strong opinions here for vaccinations,  being unvaccinated, allowing personal choices or allowing the goverment/companies to mandate their policy on you. 

I support choices as long as your choice which is different than mine doesn't infringe on my choices. 

Couple of thoughts.  Do you all read what you post? Just because you disagree, doesn't make the other person a jerk bully or ignoramus. Quite the opposite, you become those things.

When did this country become so risk adverse? This virus depending on age group generally averages out to a fatality rate of less than 1%, you surely take greater risks elsewhere in your life just about every other day

At this point if you are vaccinated you took a calculated risk in terms of unknown long term side effects

At this point if you are unvaccinated you are taking a calculated risk in terms of getting the virus. 

If your vaccine works, why do I need one?

If your vaccine doesn't work, why do I need one?

At the end of the day, our love of cruising brings us here. Enjoy life, live and let live, be kind and agree to disagree sometimes. 

I will get off my soapbox now.

Happy cruising at some point, tip big for the poor souls who have been out of work for so long and help to make our memorable vacations. 

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16 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

Here is something that might blow some people's minds. 

Currently, not everyone the works in the health care industry is vaccinated because they have a choice. Rules are changing everyday in which what PPE is being required working in this field. 

Soon, the mask mandate is going to be lifted for those individuals in this field to wear masks.  

Just our of curiosity, for those on this blog who work in the health care industry, did your employer make you get the vaccine?  I personally, haven't heard of many people forced or mandated to get one.  I believe in most cases it was the CHOICE of the individual. 

My hospital did not mandate vaccines when we started getting them in December. We have, however, been served notice recently that there will be a 100% vaccine requirement by January 1, 2022.  Those not vaccinated will no longer have a job, or admission privileges (as the case may be) 

The mask mandate in healthcare facilities (at least in TX) is controlled by the Texas Medical Board. I no longer have to require masks to be worn in my office, however the hospital is a 100% mask zone, and will be until at least mid year 2022. 

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36 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

Yes, you are absolutely correct that you can get "deathly sick" from Covid19 on a ship, but let's not forget the other things that could put passengers with compromises (like the ones the CDC has listed if exposed to Covid19) at risk.?


I’m vaccinated and trust the vaccine to keep people from getting Covid, but I don’t 100% trust it won’t cause side effects down the road, so I don’t feel anybody should be forced to take it …….. My Body, My Choice, and all

 ….. if a potential passenger has “compromises”, even if the ship is 110% vaccinated, they probably shouldn’t take a cruise.  There’s lots of other things, including norovirus, that can take them down on a cruise.

 In every day life you’re going to be around people who aren’t vaccinated, why should that bother you if you’re vaccinated?

Just a reminder, the CDC considers between 70% to 80% of people vaccinated or having had the disease to be enough for herd immunity for pretty much every disease out there.

There could be many people who’ve already had Covid among the unvaccinated.  Myself and my spouse both got Covid in between our 1st and 2nd dose of Pfizer.  Our 9yo son who’s not vaccinated also already had it with no worse symptoms than a sore throat and a fever for 12 hours.  I was willing for us to get this experimental vaccine, but I will NEVER let my son get any vaccine that hasn’t been studied for side effects for at least 5 years or more.  

I totally and completely understand why some people would choose not to get the vaccine and I don’t feel they should be treated any different that anyone else.  It goes back to my original point, if you believe the vaccine works and got vaccinated, other people’s personal choices of what to do with their own body shouldn’t make any difference to you.  If you’re so sick or have so many pre-existing comorbidities that you can’t be vaccinated, then you shouldn’t be on a cruise in the first place, because Covid isn’t the only thing you’re susceptible to.

 

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Unvaccinated does not necessarily mean one does not have same level of immunity as one who is vaccinated. People are conflating this issue. 
 

People who have had Covid have some form of immunity. There is still a debate on how long it lasts.

Also, there is a % of people who have natural immunity 

lastly, there are small children who have not been shown to be vectors of virus spread

And it’s ridiculous to think the unvaccinated are a threat to vaccinated crew like the ones who “drive” the ship. As if they were to get a breakthrough case of Covid, they would drop dead in an instance. 
 

the biggest issue I see as others have said is disruption of the cruise, being confined to my cabin, having the cruise being cut short, etc 

BUT, an 100% vaccinated cruise is unrealistic. Even if FL didn’t have its vaccine law, the cruise lines are faced with a hard business decision. As a business that caters to families, how long do you want to limit your customer base? How much are you willing to anger your loyal customer base who are families with small children? Especially if a major competitor is allowing what you disallow? 
 

Mixed vaccinated cruises are going to be the way things will happen with the restart from FL. The cruise lines have weighed the business risks and have decided. 
 

The biggest test will be when the first case of Covid on a cruise ship happens. It’s going to happen regardless of how many ppl are vaccinated on a given cruise 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

The biggest kicker in the vaccine mandate debate is that more and more studies are showing that natural immunity from recovering from covid is just as good a the vaccine. I know the CDC allows for a 90 day window prior to a cruise, those who have recovered from covid in the last 90 days is becoming less and less

Please, show us these "studies". 

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8 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

lastly, there are small children who have not been shown to be vectors of virus spread

 

There was one recent study where researchers studied pre-covid blood samples of kids and found antibodies that would work against covid. More research into that might help explain why kids are much less affected

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8 minutes ago, alamode123 said:

Please, show us these "studies". 

Not a scientific study by any means but allow me to share my experience.  My whole household got it except for me who continued sleeping in the same bed as my wife and was in very close contact at the height of when it was most contagious. Ate off my kids fork and plate too.  I seem to have some form of natural immunity and am rocking antibodies. Why would I want a vaccine in the short term? That's my real life experience.  Why would I want to give the vaccine to my family right now?

There isn't a one size fits all approach here. Reading these comments,, Snark toward those we disagree with just fuels the division. At the end of the day we all want to get back at it. Unite around common interests and agree to disagree sometimes. 

 

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48 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

My hospital did not mandate vaccines when we started getting them in December. We have, however, been served notice recently that there will be a 100% vaccine requirement by January 1, 2022.  Those not vaccinated will no longer have a job, or admission privileges (as the case may be) 

The mask mandate in healthcare facilities (at least in TX) is controlled by the Texas Medical Board. I no longer have to require masks to be worn in my office, however the hospital is a 100% mask zone, and will be until at least mid year 2022. 

I'm as Respiraory Therapist in Montreal Canada. For us as of now unvaccinated healthcare workers have to get tested 3 times a week  or be relocated ( if possible) and if not possible home without pay. 

Maybe multiple tests for unvaccinated guests may be a wya to go. To keep on top of it? 

I believe the most important thing in this whole situation is that cruises need to do everything in their power to make at least the first while of cruising resume WITHOUT a major hitch.  Worst thing possible would be to start up amd get pulled again because it blew up in their face. So maybe strict protocols for first bit to save cruising as a whole?? 

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17 minutes ago, Marlena said:

I'm as Respiraory Therapist in Montreal Canada. For us as of now unvaccinated healthcare workers have to get tested 3 times a week  or be relocated ( if possible) and if not possible home without pay. 

Maybe multiple tests for unvaccinated guests may be a wya to go. To keep on top of it? 

I believe the most important thing in this whole situation is that cruises need to do everything in their power to make at least the first while of cruising resume WITHOUT a major hitch.  Worst thing possible would be to start up amd get pulled again because it blew up in their face. So maybe strict protocols for first bit to save cruising as a whole?? 

Certainly Royal Caribbean International has more at stake than almost anyone in cruises coming back online and in a way that doesn't lead to them getting pulled again.  They also have to have more information than any of us regarding the numbers.  So the fact they would come out with this plan has to be good news on their confidence that they can manage the risk.  The big unknown at this point seems to be the protocols.  Once those are announced it will either put some at ease, or lead to an even larger kerfuffle regarding their decision to not mandate a vaccination.  

I wonder if there is anyway they would be able to, or even entertain the idea of publishing the % of cruisers on each ship that had provided their vaccination status.  This could end up like some restaurants publishing the calorie counts in their meals which led to people not buying as much food, but if they were high figures might put some at ease.

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1 hour ago, ChrisK2793 said:


I’m vaccinated and trust the vaccine to keep people from getting Covid, but I don’t 100% trust it won’t cause side effects down the road, so I don’t feel anybody should be forced to take it …….. My Body, My Choice, and all

Our thoughts exactly. 

We also feel being a publicly-held business pursuing profits, Royal should have the right to require all guests to be vaccinated if they believe such a mandate would be better for ensuring a healthy cruise.

The potential negative publicity created by a COVID outbreak on a sailing could devastate the business for years to come.

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15 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

I wonder if there is anyway they would be able to, or even entertain the idea of publishing the % of cruisers on each ship that had provided their vaccination status.  This could end up like some restaurants publishing the calorie counts in their meals which led to people not buying as much food, but if they were high figures might put some at ease.

That’d be interesting - IF they could or would do it, my question is when would you publish it? Would it be a rolling number? At boarding? Say only 50% of passengers are vaccinated at boarding - I really wouldn’t have an option to back out at that point, because I wouldn’t feel comfortable going on a cruise with that low a rate of vaccinated passengers. Would they offer a full FCC if that was the case? (Cancelling at boarding due to concerns of a low vaccinated rate). 

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10 minutes ago, Josh C said:

That’d be interesting - IF they could or would do it, my question is when would you publish it? Would it be a rolling number? At boarding? Say only 50% of passengers are vaccinated at boarding - I really wouldn’t have an option to back out at that point, because I wouldn’t feel comfortable going on a cruise with that low a rate of vaccinated passengers. Would they offer a full FCC if that was the case? (Cancelling at boarding due to concerns of a low vaccinated rate). 

It would also be interesting to know what number would make the majority of people comfortable enough to sail.  I could be wrong, but I really doubt it would end up anywhere near 50%.  I would imagine a base line somewhere around 70-75%, and I think it would be higher most likely.

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16 minutes ago, JimnKathy said:

The potential negative publicity created by a COVID outbreak on a sailing could devastate the business for years to come.

This right here is the issue. Regardless of if it’s fair or not, ONE case.. and the media will go bonkers, which will provide those that aren’t knowledgeable about cruising an incorrect narrative and create public pressure to halt cruising. We’ll see replays of Ruby and Diamond Princess non stop. The risk, of allowing unvaccinated adults who CAN get the vaccine on a cruise ship far outweighs any potential benefit IMO

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9 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

It would also be interesting to know what number would make the majority of people comfortable enough to sail.  I could be wrong, but I really doubt it would end up anywhere near 50%.  I would imagine a base line somewhere around 70-75%, and I think it would be higher most likely.

And that’s the thing.. everyone has a different comfort level - and we truly don’t know the numbers.. one cruise could be 50% vaccinated and the next cruise could be 90% vaccinated. Just do many variables. 

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9 minutes ago, Josh C said:

This right here is the issue. Regardless of if it’s fair or not, ONE case.. and the media will go bonkers, which will provide those that aren’t knowledgeable about cruising an incorrect narrative and create public pressure to halt cruising. We’ll see replays of Ruby and Diamond Princess non stop. The risk, of allowing unvaccinated adults who CAN get the vaccine on a cruise ship far outweighs any potential benefit IMO

You might be right, I can't say you are wrong, but I don't think it could be the same as the Ruby and Diamond.  Those were a result of those ships sailing around with no where to port with ever increasing case counts.  That isn't going to happen.  There will be headlines, but with the current news cycles, I suspect it would be forgotten in 24 hours if it didn't drag out.  That was also in a time where some places had hardly any cases.  

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10 minutes ago, Josh C said:

This right here is the issue. Regardless of if it’s fair or not, ONE case.. and the media will go bonkers, which will provide those that aren’t knowledgeable about cruising an incorrect narrative and create public pressure to halt cruising. We’ll see replays of Ruby and Diamond Princess non stop. The risk, of allowing unvaccinated adults who CAN get the vaccine on a cruise ship far outweighs any potential benefit IMO

But…it’s not a matter of “if” but “when” there will be Covid on a ship.

Panic porn and click bait are good for metrics and ratings and unfortunately the general population fails to put cases of Covid into context because the media never provides details as to the case of Covid 

And sadly, it’s ignorant public pressure because of the conditioning done by the media. People need to be told that Covid is here to stay and is on the way to being endemic and is treatable in 99.90% of cases 

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7 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

You might be right, I can't say you are wrong, but I don't think it could be the same as the Ruby and Diamond.  Those were a result of those ships sailing around with no where to port with ever increasing case counts.  That isn't going to happen.  There will be headlines, but with the current news cycles, I suspect it would be forgotten in 24 hours if it didn't drag out.  That was also in a time where some places had hardly any cases.  

Well obviously not the same - but the media will treat it as such.. Covid + Cruise Ships = profitable click bait stories. I don’t have faith in almost any media outlet (except @Matt) to report the accuracy of the issue. 

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8 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

But…it’s not a matter of “if” but “when” there will be Covid on a ship.

Panic porn and click bait are good for metrics and ratings and unfortunately the general population fails to put cases of Covid into context because the media never provides details as to the case of Covid 

And sadly, it’s ignorant public pressure because of the conditioning done by the media. People need to be told that Covid is here to stay and is on the way to being endemic and is treatable in 99.90% of cases 

I agree.. but the media doesn’t care about that - nor does a public wanting to resume life as normal and “cruise ship covid outbreak) is the leading and trending stories.. saying nothing.. about the CDC saying.. I told you so. One case or 1000.. doesn’t matter when it comes to cruise lines unfortunately. I don’t like it, and I don’t think it’s fair but it’s what we have - I would be ecstatic if I’m wrong.  

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25 minutes ago, Josh C said:

I agree.. but the media doesn’t care about that - nor does a public wanting to resume life as normal and “cruise ship covid outbreak) is the leading and trending stories.. saying nothing.. about the CDC saying.. I told you so. One case or 1000.. doesn’t matter when it comes to cruise lines unfortunately. I don’t like it, and I don’t think it’s fair but it’s what we have - I would be ecstatic if I’m wrong.  

I don’t disagree with you at all. 
 

when it happens, and it will, it will be a test for all. If only we had a responsible, fact driven media that cared more about actual reporting than pushing a given narrative. 
 

what would be good when the first Covid case appears on a US based ship is for media to report it, put it in context and having an expert on explaining why it’s not the end of the world and cruising shouldn’t be shut down again. 
 

I dare to dream….but alas it’s just a dream 

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2 hours ago, JSB_Z51 said:

Not a scientific study by any means but allow me to share my experience.  My whole household got it except for me who continued sleeping in the same bed as my wife and was in very close contact at the height of when it was most contagious. Ate off my kids fork and plate too.  I seem to have some form of natural immunity and am rocking antibodies. Why would I want a vaccine in the short term? That's my real life experience.  Why would I want to give the vaccine to my family right now?

 

 

 

The other possibility was that your wife wasn't very contagious.  That doesn't mean that if you later run into a very contagious person that you won't come down with covid-19.

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2 hours ago, RBRSKI said:

 I love "unite around common interests and agree to disagree sometimes" but we also need to understand when we agree or disagree those are called "opinions" which we should respect. 

Then there's science. Science isn't an opinion. It's true whether you trust it or not. 

If you choose to cruise, or go anywhere for that matter, without being vaccinated, you are dramatically increasing the threat of infection to others.

Since the cruiseline chooses not to insist that everyone is vaccinated, they must treat everyone as unvaccinated. That means masks 100 percent of the time out of your cabin, plexiglass everywhere, social distancing etc.

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8 minutes ago, alamode123 said:

Seeing you can't ask if passengers are vaccinated, everyone must get multiple tests.

We don't know this to be true, please cite a source if you have one.  The issue wasn't asking if someone is vaccinated, it was requiring vaccination for service.  So, as others have suggested, an easy work around is simply to offer the option for people to voluntarily provide the information with different protocols for those that offer it up.  Is there really going to be someone that got the vaccination that wouldn't offer that information to Royal?  There could be, but I imagine most who have been vaccinated would offer it freely.

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2 hours ago, ChrisK2793 said:


I’m vaccinated and trust the vaccine to keep people from getting Covid, but I don’t 100% trust it won’t cause side effects down the road, so I don’t feel anybody should be forced to take it …….. My Body, My Choice, and all

Nothing in this vaccine has any material that could potentially cause side effects down the road. It produces a protein found on the surface of the covid-19 virus, and is out of your system within a week. (Molecular ganatics and molecular biology degree)

All that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a choice in taking it, but there should be ramifications if you choose not to, one of which is businesses choosing to allow only vaccinated patrons.

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17 minutes ago, alamode123 said:

Then there's science. Science isn't an opinion. It's true whether you trust it or not. 

If you choose to cruise, or go anywhere for that matter, without being vaccinated, you are dramatically increasing the threat of infection to others.

Since the cruiseline chooses not to insist that everyone is vaccinated, they must treat everyone as unvaccinated. That means masks 100 percent of the time out of your cabin, plexiglass everywhere, social distancing etc.

Plexiglass is not science. Plexiglass does not stop virus that spreads through air. 

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10 minutes ago, gatorskin76 said:

We don't know this to be true, please cite a source if you have one.  The issue wasn't asking if someone is vaccinated, it was requiring vaccination for service.  So, as others have suggested, an easy work around is simply to offer the option for people to voluntarily provide the information with different protocols for those that offer it up.  Is there really going to be someone that got the vaccination that wouldn't offer that information to Royal?  There could be, but I imagine most who have been vaccinated would offer it freely.

I thought the issue was you could not ask a patron if they were vaccinated. If I am wrong, sorry.

But ok, you  get a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people entering the ship. Once on the ship, there's no way to tell who is who. You would still have to treat everyone as potentially unvaccinated, with all  the testing, masking etc. No?

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11 minutes ago, alamode123 said:

Nothing in this vaccine has any material that could potentially cause side effects down the road. It produces a protein found on the surface of the covid-19 virus, and is out of your system within a week. (Molecular ganatics and molecular biology degree)

All that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a choice in taking it, but there should be ramifications if you choose not to, one of which is businesses choosing to allow only vaccinated patrons.

Lol… no side effects. I guess we will just forget that the J&J vaccine had to be paused and they are currently investigating heart inflammation for ages 12-16 that have had vaccine 

You are funny for someone to talk about science and yet ignore it. 

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7 minutes ago, alamode123 said:

I thought the issue was you could not ask a patron if they were vaccinated. If I am wrong, sorry.

But ok, you  get a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people entering the ship. Once on the ship, there's no way to tell who is who. You would still have to treat everyone as potentially unvaccinated, with all  the testing, masking etc. No?

There are definitely ways to determine, but keep in mind your original reference was to testing, so surely they would have a way of testing only those that haven't shown proof of vaccination.  Masking in areas would be more difficult, but the original reference was testing.

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