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Celebrity Cruises Will Resume Cruises From Florida in June


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12 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

I think Celebrity is acting in bad faith to sell a service that they know they  may not be available to deliver.

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

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11 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

Love your take on things and when you said the following;

My takeaway is: keep government out my business.

You are spot on. My takeaway is this is exactly what our governor is doing. I know some here do not like our governor but he has done the right thing as far as the state is concerned. BUT this has now crossed into the unintended category. Also there is the pesky little word in all of this and it is "PASSPORT". Currently there is no such thing. 

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15 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Point taken. Do you think the entire cruise industry is culpable in this regard? I do to varying degrees. Frankly, Delrio may turn out to be the most honest CEO by saying, we can't do this (my words) and planning restarts late in 2021 and not competing in the race to "be first."

I think we're seeing how shaky the restart is shaping up to be under the provisions of the CSO. My takeaway is: keep government out my business. The costs of regulatory interventions infrequently produce the desired benefit.

Yes and no. I think Cruise lines selling July and August cruises from US ports right now are acting in bad faith because of so much uncertainty there is about the feasibility of cruising in July and August. Test sailings, Florida law and the general timeline all point to increasing unlikelihood of widespread July cruises and possibly August cruises. 

I fully agree. Keep government limited in scope. Let businesses set their own terms of service and let the customers decide their fate 

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17 hours ago, StayFrosty said:

I don't think Florida has a leg to stand on when it comes to banning so-called "Vaccine Passports".  In Zucht v. King (1922), the court ruled that schools could bar students who had not been vaccinated.  The court has also ruled that denying service to a customer is legal as long is it not because of a person's status in one of the following protected classes: race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.  The unvaccinated are not a protected class.  And federal law clearly has jurisdiction as the cruise lines are engaged in interstate commerce.  Health privacy laws don't apply because RCL is not your healthcare provider and it would be you who would be divulging your medical status.

Now a new ruling could change this, but the court has (at least historically) been hesitant to overturn previous precedents.

Clearly Celebrity either has an inside track they are working or are very confident in their legal standing.

Someone will need a test case to be brought before the courts to get a ruling on Florida's state law.  Could be that is exactly what Celebrity is doing.  I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

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16 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

Someone will need a test case to be brought before the courts to get a ruling on Florida's state law.  Could be that is exactly what Celebrity is doing.  I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

Depends on which court. State it probably would be upheld as this "law" as some have stated is actually and amendment to the emergency act of the state of Florida. 

If it goes to federal court then all bets are off.

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I can see this sort of compromise that distinguishes cruising from basic goods and services in Florida

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/27/floridas-vaccine-passport-law-holding-royal-caribbeans-new-health-protocols-cruises

Ms. Ritzenthaler praised Governor Ron DeSantis' efforts to help get cruise ships going on the federal level, and even thought the law makes sense for local businesses, "our governor was the one that started really pushing the CDC and talking to the White House."

"When he came out with the policy that says that he will not require in the state of Florida people to show proof of vaccinations, he was talking about restaurants, bars, hotels, Disney, places that weren't cruise ships because at the time, cruise ships weren't open yet."

She went on to say that cruise executives from Royal Caribbean Group, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings, and Carnival are working with Governor DeSantis, "we're ironing out a statement that will articulate how cruising will be different than in the state."

 

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1 hour ago, vanelli56 said:

I totally understand the optics of how the media is going to spin it as soon as one person tests positive on a cruise. I am just wondering how it will look if they report an outbreak on a fully vaccinated cruise.... vs. an outbreak on a mixed cruise with both vax and unvaxxed. I know either way the media will spin it to make it sound bad... but I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise.

You're giving people too much credit. The media reports "Covid on a cruise ship AGAIN" and that's the narrative. Most people do not even care about details. They just hear the headline, and then the "told you so" start flying.

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1 hour ago, vanelli56 said:

I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise. 

It's going to happen. I'm not sure of a full blown outbreak, but at least somebody on a cruise contracting Covid. It's already happened on land. What about the NY Yankees a couple of weeks ago? Like 6-8 players who had been fully vaccinated came down with it. Did the general public and news media "freak out" and demand that all baseball games be suspended? Of course they didn't.  How will the general public react and what will the cruise industry do is the next question. I hope they have a plan in place because the day is coming. 

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1 hour ago, CruiseGus said:

I don't believe you can go to court for a decision until your an affected party, which will happen if indeed Celebrity sails and is then fined.

Correct, for a court to rule on an issue, someone has to sue.  To sue you need to have standing. To have standing you need to have been ‘harmed’ by said law.  There are plenty of historic examples of people purposely putting themselves in violation of a law in order to challenge it in court.  This could be one of those times.

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1 hour ago, vanelli56 said:

^^^^THIS^^^^^
If you are fully vaccinated on a cruise, why would you worry about the people around you and if they have or have not vaccinated? 

I totally understand the optics of how the media is going to spin it as soon as one person tests positive on a cruise. I am just wondering how it will look if they report an outbreak on a fully vaccinated cruise.... vs. an outbreak on a mixed cruise with both vax and unvaxxed. I know either way the media will spin it to make it sound bad... but I think that the public would start to question things a lot more if there were positive cases reported on a vaxxed only cruise. 

Isn't just the optics. It is the unknown extent of what will happen onboard once a confirmed case occurs. Outside of the obvious of infected guests being quarantined who else will get quarantined as a safe guard. Will the impact matter between those vaccinated or not. What extent will onboard services be impacted. Would ports of call deny docking, outside a medial drop-off, if a ship has a confirmed case.

Just look at what happens at the start and during a Noro outbreak onboard. True the CSO Operations Manual states what must happen but nothing says that the cruise line can't go beyond the requirements.

Getting a refund from the sailing isn't the full cost to a guest. One can't simply ask an employer to be reimbursed for time off if their vacation was impacted. Would also have to factor in additional travel expenses that won't be reimbursed.

While a 95% vaccinated ship won't guarantee the possibility of an infection being reported it would greatly reduce the chances.

 

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10 minutes ago, FManke said:

It's going to happen. I'm not sure of a full blown outbreak, but at least somebody on a cruise contracting Covid. It's already happened on land. What about the NY Yankees a couple of weeks ago? Like 6-8 players who had been fully vaccinated came down with it. Did the general public and news media "freak out" and demand that all baseball games be suspended? Of course they didn't.  How will the general public react and what will the cruise industry do is the next question. I hope they have a plan in place because the day is coming. 

I think the difference is with the Yankees is that the cases were only discovered through regular testing. 5 were asymptomatic and 2 had mild symptoms. If the cruise lines were going to do daily testings then its more than likely some cases may be discovered. 

But I agree that with cruising, people will view any news about cases on a cruise ship as confirming its priors on their views on cruise ships. 

There is no way to make Covid disappear even on Vaccinated cruises. Just like pre-covid, there were people on cruises with cases of the flu and other illnesses that you never knew about it. 

Until the general public understand the meaning of cases of Covid and the media stops the fear porn, Covid cases on a cruise ship will be overblown and there will be those that want to shut cruising down again. Context and perspective is much needed now as Covid is waning as a pandemic and becomes endemic part of life

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On 5/27/2021 at 2:04 AM, icf75 said:

I would happily cruise with 'the great un-vaxxed'.  Just as long as I could cruise, the risks are minuscule!"!

For me it isn’t about risk, it’s about the probability that these cruises will require far more “mitigation protocols” than a ship that adheres to the 95% rule. 

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47 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

For me it isn’t about risk, 

There is of course a risk involved. But there is a risk of something happening to you every time you leave your house to do anything. I guess we could just stay in the house? But then what about the risks of household accidents? Life is full of risks. 

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2 hours ago, FManke said:

There is of course a risk involved. But there is a risk of something happening to you every time you leave your house to do anything. I guess we could just stay in the house? But then what about the risks of household accidents? Life is full of risks. 

I understand, thats why i said it isn't about the risks.  I am not worried about catching Covid, I have no problem being around and in close proximity to unvaxed individuals.  I just have a problem spending thousands of dollars for a masked and socially distanced experience because some choose no to take the vaccine.  

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22 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

I understand, thats why i said it isn't about the risks.  I am not worried about catching Covid, I have no problem being around and in close proximity to unvaxed individuals.  I just have a problem spending thousands of dollars for a masked and socially distanced experience because some choose no to take the vaccine.  

Then don't. Stay home, save your money for when the coast is clear. We all have options. Not trying to be snarky or anything but this argument has a simple answer.

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34 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

Then don't. Stay home, save your money for when the coast is clear. We all have options. Not trying to be snarky or anything but this argument has a simple answer.

Or the unvaxed can stay home and they can wait until the coast is clear.  That is also simple. 

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2 hours ago, cruisinghawg said:

Then don't. Stay home, save your money for when the coast is clear. We all have options. Not trying to be snarky or anything but this argument has a simple answer.

But they already have my money, and can’t tell me what the protocol is going to be. 
It isn’t as simple as “just stay home” for me OR for the family with a child under 12. 

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1 hour ago, johnt83 said:

This. 

Or maybe just maybe people who already have had Covid don’t need a vaccine? 
 

But because they decide against getting a vaccine in the short term, they should just stay home and not be able to pay and enjoy a cruise? And pregnant women should stay home as well? Can I get a full list of everyone you would like to exclude from cruising? 

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20 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

Or maybe just maybe people who already have had Covid don’t need a vaccine? 
 

But because they decide against getting a vaccine in the short term, they should just stay home and not be able to pay and enjoy a cruise? And pregnant women should stay home as well? Can I get a full list of everyone you would like to exclude from cruising? 

You want the entire list or just my top 10?

 

I kid, I kid!

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TBH, there is no credible argument for not getting vaccinated. However, it should clearly be a personal choice. I have no issues with a person telling me they aren't getting the vaccine. I don't care about the reasons - that's that person's business. 

OTH, I have no problems with a public or private entity requiring a vaccine (or a mask, or social distancing or shoes and a shirt) to enter or receive services. Nobody who is rational and sensible and knows the law and US court precedent upholding it (including the Supremes) should take issue with this. It's lawful to do so.

The Desantis BS on banning any business from requiring vaccinations to enter or receive services (among other States Governors who have done the same) is not legally defensible. It is unlawful to do so and could be unconstitutional (another story). It is undeniably FL law that will be tossed as soon as it is challenged.  So, I just don't get the kerfuffle between Desantis and Celebrity Cruise lines.

The only area where personal choice involving the kinds of things we're talking about here is abortion although it remains unlawful to prevent a woman from choosing an abortion generally under state defined limits ...... for now (Roe v. Wade and all that). I'm not here to preach abortion rights but it is illustrative about freedom of choice and it's limitations in our laws.

Read-up. This is an excellent article on falsehoods passed on social media platforms, like it is illegal for business to ask for proof of vaccination to enter or obtain services within. IT's NOT. Know the facts.

https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/05/25/no-it-is-not-illegal-for-businesses-to-require-proof-of-vaccination/

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1 hour ago, JeffB said:

TBH, there is no credible argument for not getting vaccinated. However, it should clearly be a personal choice. I have no issues with a person telling me they aren't getting the vaccine. I don't care about the reasons 

To say there is no credible argument for not getting vaccinated is ignoring the science and data in natural immunity and immunity after having Covid. It also ignores pregnant women and people with credible medical reasons where it puts them at more risk from vaccine vs contracting Covid. But I do agree with you that it should be a personal choice. And people shouldn’t look upon those unvaccinated as the unwashed or the ignorant ones among us. If you are vaccinated then believe in the vaccine and realize that those unvaccinated pose no risk to you 

And I totally agree. I have been very consistent about my position that businesses should be able to se their own terms of service and then let the customer decide who they want to do business with. The only caveat I have thought about is if businesses that provided basic goods and services that people need to survive collided that they would not offer their goods to people that were unvaccinated. In that case ONLY do I support government stepping in to stop that. Otherwise I am VERY pro business and I think DeSantis is wrong when it comes to cruise lines and could easily distinguish between the two scenarios. 
 

DeSantis is making an unforced error politically if he digs his heels on this matter and his law is the sole reason why cruises will not sail from FL and the economic impact of those with cruise adjacent jobs whose livelihood depends on the cruise industry in FL. The CDC now can rightfully claim that they are in support of cruises restarted with the vaccinated threshold of crew and passengers but DeSantis won’t allow it. 
 

Hopefully those surrounding DeSantis and his upcoming re-election bid will talk some sense into DeSantis that this is not a hill to die on and nothing good will come from him refusing to compromise with the cruise lines 

 

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I stand corrected by omission. I failed to mention there are "credible" reasons, a medical condition, including pregnancy being one of them.

But it's an error by omission not one "ignoring the science and the data." Speaking of which. the data is not sufficiently robust at this point to conclude that if you've been infected with COVID in the past, you don't need to get vaccinated. The opposite is probably true and that is the CDC's position at the moment.

Anecdotally (meaning there are no peer reviewed studies supporting this view), it is thought that if you had a asymptomatic or mild case of COVID, you are more likely to become infected a second time even though the occurrence rate is very low. You'll probably be asymptomatic but, if you do become infected and don't know it, you will carry and shed virus particles. The reason for that is that it is believed that your immune response, in particular Memory B cell response (humeral or adaptive immunity) is weaker than it has been found to be in serious cases of COVID or those that have been vaccinated. For infected and recovered people that don't get vaccinated one can expect the body to mount a weaker overall attack of the virus, still unknowingly carry it and be going places with the risk of infecting others. 

I still hold it's personal choice but to say there is science and data behind choosing not to get vaccinated if you've already had COVID is not accurate. Anecdotally and at this point in time, most experts would argue you should get vaccinated even if you've had COVID - unless you are Rand Paul - he's had COVID, thinks he doesn't need to get vaccinated and does not plan on it.

 

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You lost me at using the CDC as an authority on immunity after Covid infection. They are no longer driven  by science and/or data. 
 

Reasonable people can disagree. I will leave it at that. Though I do agree with 99% of the informed info you bring to the table especially when it comes to businesses and government regulation

i do thank you for your viewpoint and I respect what you have to say and always look forward to your posts

thank you 

 

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13 hours ago, JeffB said:

TBH, there is no credible argument for not getting vaccinated. However, it should clearly be a personal choice. I have no issues with a person telling me they aren't getting the vaccine. I don't care about the reasons - that's that person's business. 

OTH, I have no problems with a public or private entity requiring a vaccine (or a mask, or social distancing or shoes and a shirt) to enter or receive services. Nobody who is rational and sensible and knows the law and US court precedent upholding it (including the Supremes) should take issue with this. It's lawful to do so.

The Desantis BS on banning any business from requiring vaccinations to enter or receive services (among other States Governors who have done the same) is not legally defensible. It is unlawful to do so and could be unconstitutional (another story). It is undeniably FL law that will be tossed as soon as it is challenged.  So, I just don't get the kerfuffle between Desantis and Celebrity Cruise lines.

The only area where personal choice involving the kinds of things we're talking about here is abortion although it remains unlawful to prevent a woman from choosing an abortion generally under state defined limits ...... for now (Roe v. Wade and all that). I'm not here to preach abortion rights but it is illustrative about freedom of choice and it's limitations in our laws.

Read-up. This is an excellent article on falsehoods passed on social media platforms, like it is illegal for business to ask for proof of vaccination to enter or obtain services within. IT's NOT. Know the facts.

https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/05/25/no-it-is-not-illegal-for-businesses-to-require-proof-of-vaccination/

Got it but do not agree.

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So much speculation on what if and who can or can’t and when do we and why this or that etc...etc...etc!  Honestly, I believe no one knows any answers right now...probably not even Royal!!!   Everyone reads into information differently and everyone has their own opinions.  My opinion is my opinion and yours is yours...
I am all for sitting back and relaxing and waiting for the correct answers which truly can only come from Royal themselves.  Why try to guess.  After all...what will be will be.

Just my opinion  ??‍♀️

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13 minutes ago, PPPJJ-GCVAB said:

So much speculation on what if and who can or can’t and when do we and why this or that etc...etc...etc!  Honestly, I believe no one knows any answers right now...probably not even Royal!!!   Everyone reads into information differently and everyone has their own opinions.  My opinion is my opinion and yours is yours...
I am all for sitting back and relaxing and waiting for the correct answers which truly can only come from Royal themselves.  Why try to guess.  After all...what will be will be.

Just my opinion  ??‍♀️

Wow!! I couldn't have said it better. 100% agree!! Thank you !!

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16 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

Can I get a full list of everyone you would like to exclude from cruising? 

I'll start.

Pool chair hogs.

People who want to get on the elevator before you get off.

Line cutters in the WJ

This might needs its own thread! ?

 

Happy Cruising! (It's getting closer!)

 

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21 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

I understand, thats why i said it isn't about the risks.  I am not worried about catching Covid, I have no problem being around and in close proximity to unvaxed individuals.  I just have a problem spending thousands of dollars for a masked and socially distanced experience because some choose no to take the vaccine.  

RCCL will not be operating under the 95% CSO guidelines, only Celebrity will.  RCCL mgt. want families with kids under 12 y/o that can't be vaxxed to sail.  All adults will be mandated to be vaxxed.  This is extremely dumb on Fain and Co. to go this route instead of telling people that kids under 12 need to wait or limit kids to 5% of passengers. So because of this,  all vaxxed adults will have to suffer with masks, limited capacity at onboard venues, social distancing and no self serve buffets. I was told by RCCL to go with Celebrity if you want no masks or social distancing.  Bad move on their part. 

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39 minutes ago, blaue said:

RCCL will not be operating under the 95% CSO guidelines, only Celebrity will.  RCCL mgt. want families with kids under 12 y/o that can't be vaxxed to sail.  All adults will be mandated to be vaxxed.  This is extremely dumb on Fain and Co. to go this route instead of telling people that kids under 12 need to wait or limit kids to 5% of passengers. So because of this,  all vaxxed adults will have to suffer with masks, limited capacity at onboard venues, social distancing and no self serve buffets. I was told by RCCL to go with Celebrity if you want no masks or social distancing.  Bad move on their part. 

Do you have any kids under 12?

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45 minutes ago, blaue said:

RCCL will not be operating under the 95% CSO guidelines, only Celebrity will.  RCCL mgt. want families with kids under 12 y/o that can't be vaxxed to sail.  All adults will be mandated to be vaxxed.  This is extremely dumb on Fain and Co. to go this route instead of telling people that kids under 12 need to wait or limit kids to 5% of passengers. So because of this,  all vaxxed adults will have to suffer with masks, limited capacity at onboard venues, social distancing and no self serve buffets. I was told by RCCL to go with Celebrity if you want no masks or social distancing.  Bad move on their part. 

I don’t know. Seems pretty smart business wise to me when you looked and see who have booked July/August sailings and can see the number of children and adults scheduled and when you do the math, there is no way they can get 95% of passengers to get vaccinated by the sail dates. You think Royal is going through the expense of test sailings if they haven’t already looked at the math and the feasibility of reaching the vaccine threshold of the CDC? 
 

they are bleeding cash. They do not want to limit their customer base unless they absolutely are required to do so. Seems like smart business to me. 

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2 hours ago, blaue said:

This is extremely dumb on Fain and Co. to go this route instead of telling people that kids under 12 need to wait or limit kids to 5% of passengers. So because of this,  all vaxxed adults will have to suffer with masks, limited capacity at onboard venues, social distancing and no self serve buffets. I was told by RCCL to go with Celebrity if you want no masks or social distancing.  Bad move on their part. 

100%

Sure, I get the family thing but what a PITA to have to deal with the most rigid and no-fun inducing CSO requirements for a hybrid passenger manifest of both vaxed and unvaxed. The risk of becoming infected from the unvaxed in that age cohort is low but not zero (we've covered this) and that is the circumstance that RCL has unwisely, IMO, decided to work with.

The cautious cruiser without kids e,.g @TXCruiserisn't going to sail on an RCL ship in June or July for sure, probably into August. If I'm Fain, I cringe when I hear about CSRs in my sales department telling people to "go with Celebrity." 

 

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3 hours ago, blaue said:

So because of this,  all vaxxed adults will have to suffer with masks, limited capacity at onboard venues, social distancing and no self serve buffets

To be fair, that isn’t confirmed yet. Royal hasn’t announced its health protocols yet.  
 

Moreover, the cdc is changing its recommendations every week. Who’s to say what the actual protocols will be by the time cruises actually sail.  

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