01 August 2021 12 years old and up?

[TXcruzer]

10 minutes ago, Neesa said:

Not debating the vaccine, not being jumpy, happy for all who can partake in sailings, this is a path to sailing again, THEIR PRODUCT THEIR RULES. I truly get that if I wish to sail I must adhere to any and all protocols no matter what they are. That being said, I am just unclear as to the fact that since this is fluid and has changed since booking, may I receive my deposits back in cash? We may not be able to sail for some time, and that's okay I would not begrudge the companies comfort or litigation protection I will wait until I can abide by the rules in place. so @Matt on the home page the article states "on or before 01 August 2021" 16 and older need to be fully vaccinated, stands to reason then if that is a hard date I can sail with my unvaccinated 15 year old (covid negative test of course) departing PC (Allure) (if sailings are moving ahead)  but then any sailing departing 02 August 2021 and forward must be vaccinated as this is when the 12 year old children need to be vaccinated? I get it very fluid, but I ask because it makes a difference. I paid for this sailing with FCC from four cancelled sailings, do you think since this is a big change (not an itinerary change for example) they would just refund my monies? I have three additional sailings November 2021, June 2022 and November 2022 I may have to pull the plug on, again just trying to understand. I have been a huge RCI supporter and wish them the best but I have a lot of $$ tied up here. I have my fingers crossed this isn't a protocol that is forever in place and that maybe it can be modified one day, I will be strategic when cancelling with this in mind. I know no one has a crystal ball just reaching out hoping for some thought sharing, thanks everyone. 

I am by no means a legal scholar, but in my reading and limited understanding of US consumer law; the contract has been changed since initial purchase (ie vaccine requirement); therefore a refund should be offered. 

[DJsMrs]

 I believe children that will turn 12 in 2021 are eligible to be vaccinated now.   Not specifically after their date of birth (at least here, this is the rule).  It’s based on birth year - not date.   I have friends whose children don’t turn 12 until November and December and kids are able to receive the vaccine.  
 

 I can’t see vaccinators splitting hairs over a few months - especially since we are practically in June and their objective is to get as many people protected as possible.  
 

 

[RBRSKI]

We were using FCC that will be re deposited.  She also said we will receive 100% of the air fare booked thru air2sea program refunded to our CC.  And I also asked about our Thanksgiving and Christmas cruise and she said as of know those of the rules, she did say they could change.

[icf75]

Should I be expecting a communication with my options Allure 22nd August?

[RBRSKI]

12 minutes ago, icf75 said:

Should I be expecting a communication with my options Allure 22nd August?

I think if you don't mind vaccinating your 12 y/o or older, it won't affect you!  In our case, we couldn't get the vaccine and have enough time to follow the protocol Royal mandated for the June 19th cruise so they are refunding all monies or FCC.

[icf75]

16 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

I think if you don't mind vaccinating your 12 y/o or older, it won't affect you!  In our case, we couldn't get the vaccine and have enough time to follow the protocol Royal mandated for the June 19th cruise so they are refunding all monies or FCC.

Small chance of that in the UK by July, and I wont be vaccinating them even if offered.

[smokeybandit]

1 hour ago, DJsMrs said:

 I believe children that will turn 12 in 2021 are eligible to be vaccinated now.   Not specifically after their date of birth (at least here, this is the rule).  It’s based on birth year - not date.   I have friends whose children don’t turn 12 until November and December and kids are able to receive the vaccine.  
 

 I can’t see vaccinators splitting hairs over a few months - especially since we are practically in June and their objective is to get as many people protected as possible.  
 

 

I haven't found anything  that says those turning 12 this year can be vaccinated at age 11. I'd be kind of surprised since the trials the EUA was based on did not involve anyone soon to be turning 12.

[TXcruzer]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

I haven't found anything  that says those turning 12 this year can be vaccinated at age 11. I'd be kind of surprised since the trials the EUA was based on did not involve anyone soon to be turning 12.

You won’t find anything because the EUA clearly states 12 years old, not “turning 12 in 2021”. A person not yet having their 12th birthday can not legally be immunized. 

[Ogilthorpe]

4 hours ago, RBRSKI said:

I think if you don't mind vaccinating your 12 y/o or older, it won't affect you!  In our case, we couldn't get the vaccine and have enough time to follow the protocol Royal mandated for the June 19th cruise so they are refunding all monies or FCC.

Do you have link to reference the RCL refund options for those impacted by these rules changes? I haven't found any information beyond your post, and inquiries to Royal could provide no answers so far.

[RBRSKI]

3 hours ago, Ogilthorpe said:

Do you have link to reference the RCL refund options for those impacted by these rules changes? I haven't found any information beyond your post, and inquiries to Royal could provide no answers so far.

I received a phone call from Marsha this morning from Royal.  I almost didn't answer the phone.  Anyway, she informed me of my two options, 1-move to a later cruise in the summer to accommodate the time frame for the vaccine 2-Total refund including any airfare booked thru Air2Sea.  I chose Number 2.

[RBRSKI]

I wish I knew the amount of people that will cancel and what the number of cabins they will lose with this approach of changing the age.  

If by chance the Nassau cruises end of being cxl'd, will it be related to families having to cxl ?  Unfortunately, we will never know.

[DJsMrs]

6 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

You won’t find anything because the EUA clearly states 12 years old, not “turning 12 in 2021”. A person not yet having their 12th birthday can not legally be immunized. 

If it was me I’d check with my doctor or local health authority.    Where I live I know kids who are nearly 12 have been vaccinated.   
 

And maybe settle the tone of your reply.   No need to be hostile (which is how this comes across) - it’s an innocent suggestion.     If someone is 4 weeks shy of their 12th bday I I can’t imagine that 4 weeks makes enough of a difference if they get the vaccine.   
 

Anyway - no one should be taking health advice from the internet.   Check with your doc before jumping to conclusions.   (Note - I also live in Canada and the policies re: public health are significantly different here than they are in the US).  

[TXcruzer]

25 minutes ago, DJsMrs said:

If it was me I’d check with my doctor or local health authority.    Where I live I know kids who are nearly 12 have been vaccinated.   
 

And maybe settle the tone of your reply.   No need to be hostile (which is how this comes across) - it’s an innocent suggestion.     If someone is 4 weeks shy of their 12th bday I I can’t imagine that 4 weeks makes enough of a difference if they get the vaccine.   
 

Anyway - no one should be taking health advice from the internet.   Check with your doc before jumping to conclusions.   (Note - I also live in Canada and the policies re: public health are significantly different here than they are in the US).  

My apologies if I came across hostile, this is the downside of the internet, I meant no hostility. 
I spoke as a physician. Here in the US, it would be a criminal act for me to vaccinate a child yet to celebrate their 12th birthday. The EUA is extremely specific. 

[DJsMrs]

2 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

My apologies if I came across hostile, this is the downside of the internet, I meant no hostility. 
I spoke as a physician. Here in the US, it would be a criminal act for me to vaccinate a child yet to celebrate their 12th birthday. The EUA is extremely specific. 

Bravo - yay for doctors.      And your explanation totally makes sense.  I guess the last thing we need is an 11 year old having a reaction to a vaccine and causing vaccine hesitancy .....     thanks for clarifying 
 

stupid Covid.  
 

I just wanna cruise

[icf75]

Im guessing by doing this they hit the 95% vaccinated target?  Very unfair on some families, unless this changes.

Just been in contact with RC and these new rules apply to my Aug 22 cruise.  Thats going to go down well with the family!

[Ian T]

1 hour ago, icf75 said:

Im guessing by doing this they hit the 95% vaccinated target?  Very unfair on some families, unless this changes.

Just been in contact with RC and these new rules apply to my Aug 22 cruise.  Thats going to go down well with the family!

Ouch! We are also based in the UK and scheduled to sail out of NJ in December. We are holding out hope that the protocol will change in time as, after much cajoling on our part, good friends of ours who were in the "Cruising would not be for us" camp finally agreed to join us; however their kids will be 12 and 16 so are not of course eligible for the vaccine here... if they are unable to sail I fear they will be lost to cruising forever, which would be a huge shame. 

[Lovetocruise2002]

10 hours ago, DJsMrs said:

If it was me I’d check with my doctor or local health authority.    Where I live I know kids who are nearly 12 have been vaccinated.   

Here in Ontario, it just opened up for kids 12+ this morning.  Last week it was open for kids 12+ with specific health conditions.  Anyway, both times, it states that you have to be 12 at the time of vaccination to be eligible.  Are you in Alberta by any chance?  I know they were doing things slightly differently than Ontario.

[JSB_Z51]

I am not vaccine for time tested vaccines but no way I will vaccinated my kids at this point.   If you are vaccinated how are my kids a risk to you? Disappointed but not surprised by the new policy.  

[JeffB]

I don't disagree with your implied position @JSB_Z51. The data so far demonstrates that unvaccinated children under 18 do not pose a significant health risk to vaccinated people. But the data that supports that view is not yet sufficiently robust to claim certainty. That's what virologists seek. They're not in the business of assessing the cost of a particular position.

Again, first, this is what's been missing in assessing the value of a particular mitigation measure from the beginning. Is it lives saved? That's a hard one to argue against. Second,  the need for certainty that virologists seek. I think all of us here would argue zero risk is unobtainable and unreasonable. Seeking for certainty in the data assumes zero risk that a hypothesis, in this case, kids don't transmit virus, is accurate.

In statistics, there are ways of identifying degrees of probability. We're not clued into this and you can be sure data geeks know what the probability is. I've seen numbers below 3%. That means a 3% chance that if you go on a cruise with unvaccinated kids where one or more of them have COVID, your risk of getting it - just getting it, let alone getting seriously ill or dying - is 3%, or 97% chance that won't even happen. The risk of serious illness or death is infinitesimally small.  

So cruise lines look at this and evaluate the costs of the 3% chance that an unvaccinated kid  causes an outbreak on a cruise and you have your answer to the question you ask. From a political POV, it would be catastrophic. The visuals would be very bad for business. Here, the lines are being as risk averse in this analysis as the CDC is too many of thiers. But this is the era we are living in where being reasonable about COVID isn't something that we see a lot of.    

[smokeybandit]

I've seen numbers well below 3%

 

Plus on a cruise ship, the odds if you being in close and continuing contact with a child in a crowded unventilated room is pretty much zero to begin with.

 

The odds of a child testing negative then spreading covid on a cruise ship is pretty much zero.

 

0+0 is pretty much still 0.

[DJsMrs]

6 hours ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

Here in Ontario, it just opened up for kids 12+ this morning.  Last week it was open for kids 12+ with specific health conditions.  Anyway, both times, it states that you have to be 12 at the time of vaccination to be eligible.  Are you in Alberta by any chance?  I know they were doing things slightly differently than Ontario.

We’re in BC.   But it shouldn’t vary too much province to province.    I think when this kid went they were literally knocking on 12 so the nurses may have done it - there was uncertainty about the policy and so it went ahead.   It may have been a one-off situation though.  

[gatorskin76]

I hope they reconsider this policy.  5 cruises cancelled so far and eagerly anticipating our November cruise, but wasn't planning on having my 12 year old get vaccinated and certainly not making that decision based on a cruise, as much as I want to go.

[WesKinetic]

6 hours ago, JeffB said:

So cruise lines look at this and evaluate the costs of the 3% chance that an unvaccinated kid  causes an outbreak on a cruise and you have your answer to the question you ask. From a political POV, it would be catastrophic. The visuals would be very bad for business. Here, the lines are being as risk averse in this analysis as the CDC is too many of thiers. But this is the era we are living in where being reasonable about COVID isn't something that we see a lot of.    

I think you hit the nail on the head. IMHO, this is the key thing the cruise lines are looking at. We can debate COVID numbers and vaccine efficacy until we’re blue in the face. But we all know that some journalist out there already has their “Pandemic on the High Seas” article written and is just waiting on the name of a ship to plug in. The first time there is a COVID transmission on a ship, it will make for sensationalistic international headlines. As unfair as that might be, it’s reality. So I think the cruise lines are really looking at how best to minimize the chance of that PR nightmare coming to pass and requiring vaccines seems the best and simplest way. 

[wordell1]

1 hour ago, WesKinetic said:

I think you hit the nail on the head. IMHO, this is the key thing the cruise lines are looking at. We can debate COVID numbers and vaccine efficacy until we’re blue in the face. But we all know that some journalist out there already has their “Pandemic on the High Seas” article written and is just waiting on the name of a ship to plug in. The first time there is a COVID transmission on a ship, it will make for sensationalistic international headlines. As unfair as that might be, it’s reality. So I think the cruise lines are really looking at how best to minimize the chance of that PR nightmare coming to pass and requiring vaccines seems the best and simplest way. 

You are 100% correct but the biggest factor is that the CDC is making non vaccinated cruising impossible in the short term.  The cruise lines and the CDC have been going back and forth for months and have gotten nowhere.  We will find out next week (we think) what agreement they came to, but I suspect the compromise was to allow cruises with 12 and up vaccinated.  RC is running a business, and the most important thing right now is to get ships sailing with passengers.

I suspect that as these cruises run without significant issue, then reasonable protocols will eventually allow non vaccinated to cruise also.

[icf75]

How long should it take to receive some form of info re my Aug 22nd cruise?

If I do a dummy booking there is no mention of vaccines?

[Neesa]

33 minutes ago, icf75 said:

How long should it take to receive some form of info re my Aug 22nd cruise?

If I do a dummy booking there is no mention of vaccines?

I did that also, no mention right now. If I wasn't on this site I would have had no idea. If you are using a TA I would contact them immediately. If not I would call RCI and get your options sorted, if you want a cash refund I would be proactive this morning. Hopefully then you will get your monies back in a timely fashion, I am still waiting for my cash refund for a sailing RCI cancelled in early March. My TA processed it this I know, they are still saying 90 more days. Have a pleasant week, hope it works out sooner rather than later.

[icf75]

Im going to book up a villa in Cape Coral as an alternative!

[Matt]

1 hour ago, icf75 said:

How long should it take to receive some form of info re my Aug 22nd cruise?

Unknown. There's no timeline of when you may or may not hear anything

1 hour ago, icf75 said:

If I do a dummy booking there is no mention of vaccines?

That doesn't necessarily matter. When you book a cruise, you agree to the terms and conditions of the cruise contract, which basically say Royal Caribbean can change anything and everything about your cruise and you are not necessarily entitled to any kind of refund or out clause.

My advice if you're booking today is to be keenly aware things could change, and a full or partial or no vaccine mandate could be part of the experience.

[ChrisK2793]

I just called Royal to add a cruise ….. Mariner out of Port Canaveral in December ….. before she finalized the booking, the agent said, “just to let you know, you will have to be fully vaccinated to board the ship.”  Both of us adults are fully vaccinated with Pfizer so that’s not a problem.

I then asked her about children and she said in July it will be 14 and up, then starting August 1, it will be 12 and up who will be required to be fully vaccinated before boarding.  

I told her my son will still be 9 for our October cruise and 10 years old for the other 3 we have booked.  I asked what happens if the FDA lowers the minimum age for the vaccine from 12 down to to 6 years old before any our cruises, would RCL then give me a 100% cash refund of all my money paid if I decide to cancel since that wasn’t the requirement for children his age when I booked all my cruises.  He’s had Covid already(so now has natural antibodies)  and even though we took the vaccine, I wouldn’t let him get it without it being out and studied for at least 5 years.

She told me that she believes they would refund in that case since it wasn’t required for a 9 or 10 year old when I booked.  She also said that AS OF NOW, there hasn’t been any talk of lowering the age for requiring the vaccine to board the ships any lower than 12 years old no matter how low the FDA lowers the age of eligibility.

I realize this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but that’s what I was just told as of about 30 minutes ago.

 

[Neesa]

@ChrisK2793May I ask, she said they are going to 14 and up in July? The Healthy Sail panel on RCI website states 16 and up, up to and including 01 August 2021. After 01 August 2021 12 and up. 

[ChrisK2793]

48 minutes ago, Neesa said:

@ChrisK2793May I ask, she said they are going to 14 and up in July? The Healthy Sail panel on RCI website states 16 and up, up to and including 01 August 2021. After 01 August 2021 12 and up. 

‘Yes, she said it would be 14 and up in July and then 12 and up starting August 1.  
 

She could be wrong, if you have a child in that age range who will be cruising in July, I’d recommend individually calling RCL, and trying to get them to put whatever age they tell you for July and August 1 in an email.

 

[smokeybandit]

I assume she meant 16 and up, not 14 and up

[ChrisK2793]

16 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

I assume she meant 16 and up, not 14 and up

‘That’s highly possible.  I should have asked her to clarify the age for July before we ended the call since she said 14, but I didn’t think of it until afterwards since my son will only be 9 and then 10 during our cruises and we also don’t have anything booked until October.

[icf75]

Regarding this quote:

"Mr. Fain echoed a new policy posted on its website that says everyone who is eligible to get a vaccine will be expected to get one."

Would this mean that as I am a UK resident and my children will not be eligible to be vaccinated by my cruise date, we can still go?

[LizzyBee23]

On 5/23/2021 at 9:05 PM, WesKinetic said:

I think you hit the nail on the head. IMHO, this is the key thing the cruise lines are looking at. We can debate COVID numbers and vaccine efficacy until we’re blue in the face. But we all know that some journalist out there already has their “Pandemic on the High Seas” article written and is just waiting on the name of a ship to plug in. The first time there is a COVID transmission on a ship, it will make for sensationalistic international headlines. As unfair as that might be, it’s reality. So I think the cruise lines are really looking at how best to minimize the chance of that PR nightmare coming to pass and requiring vaccines seems the best and simplest way. 

They published it yesterday (outbreak onboard ship before cruises even began!!1!). Wherever there are humans, there will be SARS-nCoV-2 (and maybe COVID) from now on.

[Ian T]

5 hours ago, icf75 said:

Regarding this quote:

"Mr. Fain echoed a new policy posted on its website that says everyone who is eligible to get a vaccine will be expected to get one."

Would this mean that as I am a UK resident and my children will not be eligible to be vaccinated by my cruise date, we can still go?

I am wondering the same thing. Ever the optimist I am interpreting the above, along with Mr Fain's advice that RC will be taking a different approach to the 95% vaccination route due to the importance of families to the brand, to mean "Not eligible (in the UK) = not subject to the requirement for vaccination", in which case I presume a PCR test at the port (likely along with other measures) will be the workable alternative. However I guess RC is not under any pressure to formally confirm what these measure will be until we are once again allowed to fly to the US anyway!

[Matt]

5 hours ago, icf75 said:

Would this mean that as I am a UK resident and my children will not be eligible to be vaccinated by my cruise date, we can still go?

Where is your ship sailing from? 

My understanding (which could be wrong) is if you or your kids are old enough to be vaccinated, they would need to be vaccinated in order to cruise. The fact you may not have access to the vaccine does not appear to be an excuse to be able to sail still.

But if you are sailing from UK, minimum age is 18, and if your kids are less than 18 years old, they could go on the cruise unvaccinated (provided you and any other adults got the jab).

[JeffB]

37 minutes ago, Ian T said:

"Not eligible (in the UK) = not subject to the requirement for vaccination", in which case I presume a PCR test at the port (likely along with other measures) will be the workable alternative. However I guess RC is not under any pressure to formally confirm what these measure will be until we are once again allowed to fly to the US anyway!

I think this is spot on. My take is that Fain knows something the public doesn't and that is something to do with relaxing of some of the stipulations within the CSO as we move forward. Fain talks about 1000% better dialogue between the CDC and the cruise lines. That's code for the idiots at the CDC are starting to deal with real world data and what RCL (and others) have offered all along as sensible infection control and risk reduction measures to allow a re-start is being adopted within the CSO.

I've argued that Celebrity has a better approach than RCL and that Fain should take a page from Luttoff-Perlo's play book .... everyone needs to be vaccinated to board. That's fine for Celebrity that has a much older passenger demographic (late 40s is the median age) and rarely has a lot of under 16s. It's not fine for RCL who I suspect is providing the CDC with rational input on the risk of the under 16 cohort of transmitting the virus as in creating a large outbreak on an RCL ship. RCL may know it's going to get a break on that from the CDC, something exactly like you are suggesting. 

I'd add that a good metric for the CDC to throw in with what you suggest is that the county (make sure you read that as COUNTY, not country as this metric should be regional) the cruise port is located within have a %positivity below 5%. If that criteria is met, un-vaxed, under 16s as well as everyone else can cruise after a negative PCR. I'd prefer that a second test after 72h be performed to catch leakers creating as close to a perfect bubble  that is reasonably achievable. 

Side note, Broward Co., home of PEV, has a % positivity rate of under 3% and has been maintaining under 5% for weeks. To my knowledge, Ports of Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville and Canaveral are all in counties with circulating virus metrics below 5%.

Your still dealing with a proportionally higher risk of a COVID outbreak aboard ship if you allow a mix of vaxed and un-vaxed passengers, introduce questions of who needs to mask and who doesn't and introduction of COVID after a cruise port is visited. Maybe Fain has a plan to deal with that. If he does, he's not telling us. 

[icf75]

18 minutes ago, Matt said:

Where is your ship sailing from? 

My understanding (which could be wrong) is if you or your kids are old enough to be vaccinated, they would need to be vaccinated in order to cruise. The fact you may not have access to the vaccine does not appear to be an excuse to be able to sail still.

But if you are sailing from UK, minimum age is 18, and if your kids are less than 18 years old, they could go on the cruise unvaccinated (provided you and any other adults got the jab).

Its Port Canaveral, my slightly optimistic spin on his comment, is that technically my children are not eligible for the vaccine as they are not old enough to have one in the UK.

[Ian T]

14 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I think this is spot on. My take is that Fain knows something the public doesn't and that is something to do with relaxing of some of the stipulations within the CSO as we move forward. Fain talks about 1000% better dialogue between the CDC and the cruise lines. That's code for the idiots at the CDC are starting to deal with real world data and what RCL (and others) have offered all along as sensible infection control and risk reduction measures to allow a re-start is being adopted within the CSO.

I've argued that Celebrity has a better approach than RCL and that Fain should take a page from Luttoff-Perlo's play book .... everyone needs to be vaccinated to board. That's fine for Celebrity that has a much older passenger demographic (late 40s is the median age) and rarely has a lot of under 16s. It's not fine for RCL who I suspect is providing the CDC with rational input on the risk of the under 16 cohort of transmitting the virus as in creating a large outbreak on an RCL ship. RCL may know it's going to get a break on that from the CDC, something exactly like you are suggesting. 

I'd add that a good metric for the CDC to throw in with what you suggest is that the county (make sure you read that as COUNTY, not country as this metric should be regional) the cruise port is located within have a %positivity below 5%. If that criteria is met, un-vaxed, under 16s as well as everyone else can cruise after a negative PCR. I'd prefer that a second test after 72h be performed to catch leakers creating as close to a perfect bubble  that is reasonably achievable. 

Your still dealing with a proportionally higher risk of a COVID outbreak aboard ship if you allow a mix of vaxed and un-vaxed passengers, introduce questions of who needs to mask and who doesn't and introduction of COVID after a cruise port is visited. Maybe Fain has a plan to deal with that. If he does, he's not telling us. 

Makes perfect sense to me at least and I certainly hope you are right... and that @Matt is wrong in the previous post (Matt - I would never of course normally dream of saying such a thing, but hope you will forgive me in this instance! )