Jump to content

Is there way around the FL law against proof of vaccine


Recommended Posts

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

Problem with that is it puts a huge burden on the staff to enforce the have and have not rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

This is really the best way forward for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More importantly it's still not clear that a state can control this at all.  And if they can, can they do anything once the ship leaves state water sort of thing.

While there is ample maritime convention that federal government regulations apply for ships involving a US port, I'm not sure there is any history of a state government having control over the entire voyage in the manner the federal government does.

To me the whole thing is a political stunt.  I don't think it would survive a day in court.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's be clear.  The CDC is not saying everyone can discard the mask.  Only vaccinated can discard the mask.  

If Florida doesn't allow the cruise line to ask the question, the cruise line has to assume everyone is unvaccinated therefore everyone must wear a mask.  Furthermore there is no way the CDC is going to green light unvaccinated and unmasked cruising right now.   

To be clear I have no issues being around unvaccinated.  However I am not going to put the mask back on so they can join the party.    If they want to take the chance that's their choice but don't expect me to mask up to accommodate them and that would be the only way the CDC would allow cruising to occur without requiring vaccines right now.

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

Problem with that is it puts a huge burden on the staff to enforce the have and have not rules.

no we just give them special sea pass cards and make them wear funny hat when they leave their cabins. 

Consequence for no compliance is to walk the plank, i mean gangway where the ship will leave you at the next port of call.

 

Hey don't laugh that isn't anymore ridicules than the CDC's mandates

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, twangster said:

If Florida doesn't allow the cruise line to ask the question, the cruise line has to assume everyone is unvaccinated therefore everyone must wear a mask.  Furthermore there is no way the CDC is going to green light unvaccinated and unmasked cruising right now.   

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

There is/was a health screener that we used to fill out before boarding ... add a box .. are you vaccinated yes/no.

Hand a blue band to everyone that says yes  and move on - you can choose to lie or not same as you always could but you are making the statement and they arent asking you to show proof.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, jticarruthers said:

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

There is/was a health screener that we used to fill out before boarding ... add a box .. are you vaccinated yes/no.

Hand a blue band to everyone that says yes  and move on - you can choose to lie or not same as you always could but you are making the statement and they arent asking you to show proof.

 

So many nuances but I suspect if you posed that question to the governor his interpretation would be very broad.  

One step at a time.  We need to get cruising within our sights before we look for new ways to kill it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, twangster said:

So many nuances but I suspect if you posed that question to the governor his interpretation would be very broad.  

One step at a time.  We need to get cruising within our sights before we look for new ways to kill it.  

Agreed, I have always felt if we can get past the CDC to bring it down to FL vs Cruise lines that it will get solved in about 30 seconds flat ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, twangster said:

Another angle would be to pull a CDC.  One set of rules for vaccinated, another set for unvaccinated.  

If you are willing to show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (very few).

If you choose to not show proof of vaccination, these protocols apply (including wearing masks, etc).

This way they don't "require" proof of vaccination.

 

Or if you aren't vaccinated, you're restricted to your stateroom for the entire sailing. If you are vaccinated, you have access to the rest of the ship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jticarruthers said:

Does Florida say you cant ask or that you cant demand proof?

Yes, the new law prohibits businesses, schools, and government agencies from requiring people to show documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccinations or post-infection recovery before gaining entry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jticarruthers said:

Agreed, I have always felt if we can get past the CDC to bring it down to FL vs Cruise lines that it will get solved in about 30 seconds flat ...

This.

But, as Twangster posts, "one step at a time." Let's get the cruise re-start from US ports into sight. Baring a ruling by Judge Merryday that enjoins enforcement of the CDC's CSO, I suspect that in the background, unknown to the public, negotiations are going on between the CDC and cruise line execs over the entire contents of the CSO. In light of the CDC's announcement that masks are not required for fully vaccinated people, except in some settings (I'll get to that), some provisions of the CSO won't stand.

On the issue of how the CDC views cruise ships and the risks of disease spread when sailing on them: First, let's make sure we understand that the CDC views cruise ships as "congregate residential settings." These settings according to the CDC are at higher risk for disease spread and therefor are differently regulated. You can read the recent update (5/7/21) relevant to the cruise lines here: https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/instructions-local-agreements.html

IMO, it is arguable whether the science and the data support the designation of cruise ships as "residential congregate settings." Nursing homes, hospitals and prisons, I'm fine with that. Most of us are not fine with a cruise ship being designated as residential congregate setting. That's because, all things considered, cruise ships are a combination of large out door and indoor gatherings, restaurants, bars, casinos and hotels. None of these venues are subject to any kind of additional restrictions. Big contradiction given CDC's green-lighting maskless participation (normal behaviors) in any of those venues for fully vaccinated people. Nevertheless, that's where we are. Is it over-reach and falls within FL's claim and request to enjoin the CSO? Technically, no but I believe Judge Merryday is looking at this on the basis of the Amicus Curiae brief from the Association of Travel Advisors. We'll see when he rules.

There is a ton more CSO regulations pertaining to ports in the document I linked above. Read them if you like. I feel pretty confident this is government over-reach that conflicts with state's authority to regulate it's ports. The CDC doesn't have authority to regulate FL's ports past the water's edge unless they are federal facilities - none of FL's ports are that. I believe Judge Merryday is looking at this and it is where I opined earlier that we could see some of the provisions of the CSO, like these, enjoined but the CSO in total would not be enjoined.     

Back to out of the public eye negotiations going on between cruise line execs and the CDC. We've discussed some of the crazy, makes no sense mitigation measures for passengers aboard ships within this blog. The ones that will be targets for negotiations are the ones that contradict other PH guidance the CDC has provided. You know which ones these are ... the it's the long list of "stupid and makes no sense" mobility and behavior restrictions (masking between bites at a meal, no buffet style dining, limits on the number of passengers gathering in one location). If the CSO is not tossed out in its entirety I think we'll see most of this disappear. Right now, the CDC is under tremendous pressure to get it's act together. It's back-peddling ferociously and we'll see some of this in whatever COVID protocols the cruise lines end up incorporating or not into ship's operations.

On vaccinations to board/sail. Setting aside the potential conflict with FL's governor's position on this for the moment, businesses are entirely in their legal rights to require employees aboard ship to be vaccinated. Generally, where PH is concerned, it's legal to require vaccinations for certain kinds of participation. School is one of them and that has been upheld by the courts in numerous challenges. The matter of the legality of a business requiring it for patrons to receive service or enter hasn't been fully established. This is the best and most concise opinion on this I've seen:

Quote

 "It is lawful and ethical for a business to require proof of vaccination as a condition of working or getting service," Georgetown Law professor and public health expert Lawrence Gostin told CBS News. "The employer must offer medical and religious exemptions. Businesses have a legal and ethical obligation to provide a safe environment. Requiring vaccinations is the best way to do that." But that doesn't mean there aren't — and won't be — legal exceptions and challenges, aside from privacy concerns.

So, can cruise ships require vaccinations to sail. I think they can and will on the basis of their ethical obligation to provide a safe environment. Will that be challenged? Yes. In time for it to affect July sailings in the US? No.

On the Desantis position within FL. Can he ban companies operating in FL from requiring proof of vaccination for service or entry? IMO, no and I've written elsewhere why. However, there is the practical matter of creating a kurfuffle for both parties involved in reaping the benefits of restarting cruising from FL ports. My take is that there will be some sort of agreement reached and cruise lines will have the option of requiring them to sail/board from FL ports or not. Again, IMO, if the cruise lines wanted to give Desantis the middle finger they would be within their legal rights to require vaccines to board.  But why considering what's at stake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Back to out of the public eye negotiations going on between cruise line execs and the CDC. We've discussed some of the crazy, makes no sense mitigation measures for passengers aboard ships within this blog. The ones that will be targets for negotiations are the ones that contradict other PH guidance the CDC has provided. You know which ones these are ... the it's the long list of "stupid and makes no sense" mobility and behavior restrictions. If the CSO is not tossed out in its entirety I think we'll see most of this disappear. Right now, the CDC is under tremendous pressure to get it's act together. It's back-peddling ferociously and we'll see some of this in whatever COVID protocols the cruise lines end up incorporating or not into ship's operations.

This is only one portion of the tremendous pressure that is coming to bear on the CDC at the moment which, IMO, caused the "no mask mandate" to come out yesterday. They and the WH administration have in the past four months insisted on the mask mandate, even with the vaccine that was touted as the miracle cure for getting back to normal, and it became apparent that to move forward and not lose all credibility with the general public it had to be removed. That is the first step. The negotiations which I believe are happening as one would in normal course of business and court dealings may result in the CSO being modified to allow the cruise lines to operate soon and to save face for the CDC which they desperately need right now. This would make the judges' ruling easier and can be shown as a win-win for both parties. Either way, I just hope we can get sailing soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Marlena said:

Reality is cruising needs to be able to start to prove that any of their protocols work. And I think for that to happen to have to at least start with full vaccinated cruises. In my eyes its the only way to get started and we desperately need a few cruises to start and go well.

Ironically, most places are dropping any covid restrictions. It’s funny how the cruise industry is expected to prove outdated protocols work at sea. It’s also sad that CDC will not consider data from 100,000s of people that have already cruised since covid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Marlena said:

Reality is cruising needs to be able to start to prove that any of their protocols work. And I think for that to happen to have to at least start with full vaccinated cruises. In my eyes its the only way to get started and we desperately need a few cruises to start and go well.

I agree we need the first cruises to go well but at this stage its been dragged out so long they basically don't need any protocols .. never mind prove they work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/13/2021 at 6:49 PM, twangster said:

Not if you scare the unvaccinated away.

Hourly temperature checks, 2 masks at all times, etc. but only if unvaccinated.

Right and they can hand over the colored bracelets when you Board and prove you are vaccinated. I think that's a great idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/14/2021 at 9:14 AM, Matt said:

Yes, the new law prohibits businesses, schools, and government agencies from requiring people to show documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccinations or post-infection recovery before gaining entry.

Again thats at state level. Ports are primarily Fed. Then as mentioned not so sure the state would have a say in operations of an international company.  I would think the state would be flexible if push came to shove. . After all they have be the ones suing to get CDC off our back and to bypass Canada on the Alaska Sailings... This thing is so fluid that there are no answers until such time as RCL , CDC and or state of Florida  make something official. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Florida law prevents the cruise lines from asking for proof of vaccination for COVID within the state of Florida the cruise line could include a requirement when checking in online for your boarding pass and cruise documents for the passenger to send a photo or scan of their COVID Immunization record during the online process.  This would suffice as proof and the cruise line would not be in a position to have to ask to see proof at boarding within Florida ports.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, ZsOverseas said:

If Florida law prevents the cruise lines from asking for proof of vaccination for COVID within the state of Florida the cruise line could include a requirement when checking in online for your boarding pass and cruise documents for the passenger to send a photo or scan of their COVID Immunization record during the online process.  This would suffice as proof and the cruise line would not be in a position to have to ask to see proof at boarding within Florida ports.

Not sure the internet impacts the equation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All depends on what "proof" means.

My company policy as of Friday is:

"We follow the CDC guidelines that indicate vaccinated individuals are not required to wear face masks indoors."

That's the whole policy, I am not going to check anyone's status, if you aren't wearing a mask I take it you are telling me you are vaccinated.

I get that the cruise lines are facing a more complicated situation and want more legal protection than that .. my point is if that's the only barrier to cruising then there are ways that it can be worked around.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jticarruthers said:

I get that the cruise lines are facing a more complicated situation and want more legal protection than that .. my point is if that's the only barrier to cruising then there are ways that it can be worked around.

The biggest impediment to US based cruising are the shoreside healthcare contracts required that are founded in the assumption that everyone on board, guest and crew, on every ship sailing will be infected. 

Basically despite easing mask restrictions, the CDC still doesn't believe vaccinations work, so their conclusion is that everyone who steps foot on a ship will get infected, on every ship sailing, guests and crew.  Therefore cruise lines require an agreement with a land based healthcare provider ready to accept tens of thousands of infected guests and crew from all ships simultaneously.

Should a cruise line be able to enter into an agreement with a land based healthcare provider the CDC will review the agreement and let the cruise lines know if they accept it.  Plus cruise lines are forbidden to work with another cruise lines on the agreement, each cruise line must negotiate their own agreement.  Good luck with that.

Basically there will be no US cruising until the CSO receive significant modifications.  

All the rest (masks for indoor dining, Florida's vaccination passport stunt, crew vaccination efforts) is theatrics for our entertainment.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, twangster said:

The biggest impediment to US based cruising are the shoreside healthcare contracts required that are founded in the assumption that everyone on board, guest and crew, on every ship sailing will be infected. 

Basically despite easing mask restrictions, the CDC still doesn't believe vaccinations work, so their conclusion is that everyone who steps foot on a ship will get infected, on every ship sailing, guests and crew.  Therefore cruise lines require an agreement with a land based healthcare provider ready to accept tens of thousands of infected guests and crew from all ships simultaneously.

Should a cruise line be able to enter into an agreement with a land based healthcare provider the CDC will review the agreement and let the cruise lines know if they accept it.  Plus cruise lines are forbidden to work with another cruise lines on the agreement, each cruise line must negotiate their own agreement.  Good luck with that.

Basically there will be no US cruising until the CSO receive significant modifications.  

All the rest (masks for indoor dining, Florida's vaccination passport stunt, crew vaccination efforts) is theatrics designed for our entertainment.  

I have been saying this same thing for weeks.

If Merryday grants the injunction against the CSO, we now have a clearer path. 

If the CSO is upheld by the court, we are at the mercy of the CDC, and this one single point (shoreside agreements) will mean no cruising in July at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

I have been saying this same thing for weeks.

If Merryday grants the injunction against the CSO, we now have a clearer path. 

If the CSO is upheld by the court, we are at the mercy of the CDC, and this one single point (shoreside agreements) will mean no cruising in July at least.

I think this is absolutely correct. I've been doing more research on the cross-over between the fed's and the state's regulatory authority "past the water's edge." How is that actually done in practical terms? It depends on the organization of a particular port authority. Earlier in the week I opined that FL's posts were state regulated from the water's edge inland so, the CDC can't regulate what goes on inside the port terminals or between port authorities and local agencies that provide a service to the port authority or cruise line, e.g., ambulance services.

Recall that you'll see the name of a port representative or agency on several documents associated with a cruise booking. That's the cruise line's POC for support on land. In most ports, not all, the "Port Authority" - an entity that came into being after WWI, has a board of elected commissioners, and regulates some elements of operations in the ports waters and mostly all of what goes on past the water's edge. The feds mostly stay out of that but clearly there is overlap when one considers the feds authority to rgulate "transportations hubs," e.g., airports, bus terminals, train stations. Why not sea ports?

There's other overlapping regulatory authority between state enacted and federally enacted regulations, e.g., the operation of trucks in the port. Both state and federal regulation applies. I'm sure the CDC claims they have overlapping jurisdiction with states and other regulatory agencies past the water's edge. I didn't get to this level of detail but the port commissions are probably, by charter, the regulating agency for land based operations conducted by the cruise lines, e.g., passenger check in within the port's cruise terminal, baggage handling, traffic control. I suspect the CDC can "recommend" but not mandate,  and it's up to the states to take the recommendations under advisement I'll speculate the feds (CDC) stepping in here is a new curve ball for port authorities.

It would seem that the CDC can't regulate passenger screening protocols and procedures or stipulate contracts have to be developed, negotiated and signed involving pandemic related activities (shore based handling of infected cruise passengers/crew,  quarantine facilities, hospital transport, etc.) between the cruise lines and port authorities. Well, I suspect this is key issue Judge Merryday will rule on. The other is the onerous nature of the NSO which evolved into the CSO when multiple other effective mitigation measures, including those advanced by the Safe-To-Sail Panel in the fall of 2020, could have been implemented by the CDC short of a total lock-down and effectively it's continuation of that lockdown by the CSO.

Obviously I'm biased along with the rest of you here but as I dig deeper and deeper into the nitty gritty of this, the law, I can't see how the regulations in the CSO  can be lawful or rational.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/13/2021 at 6:49 PM, twangster said:

Not if you scare the unvaccinated away.

Hourly temperature checks, 2 masks at all times, etc. but only if unvaccinated.


That wouldn’t be fair at all to children who can’t be vaccinated at this point.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...