Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis says he isn’t going to relax the Covid test requirement for cruises

[LizzyBee23]

9 minutes ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

What in the world is DeSantis doing calling NCL, "not one of the bigger" cruise lines. Seems he really doesn't care if they stay or not. 

I think he's calling their bluff... And I think Desantis is making the right long term move here. Vaccine requirements in the US for a virus of this type should be a non-starter.

[smokeybandit]

I still think DeSantis knows his passport stuff won't apply to cruise lines (or international shipping itself).  He speaks too confidently in getting cruises started from Florida to be concerned about what the passport  ban means to cruise lines.

[twangster]

57 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

I think he's calling their bluff... And I think Desantis is making the right long term move here. Vaccine requirements in the US for a virus of this type should be a non-starter.

If cruise lines are exempt from litigation over virus infections.  Unfortunately what will happen is a 9 year old will get the virus somewhere, parents will claim it was on a cruise and they'll seek millions using a FL based ambulance chasing lawyer.  

If a law that prohibits asking for proof of vaccination also removes virtually all virus related liability we'd have a winner. 

[LizzyBee23]

14 minutes ago, twangster said:

If cruise lines are exempt from litigation over virus infections.  Unfortunately what will happen is a 9 year old will get the virus somewhere, parents will claim it was on a cruise and they'll seek millions using a FL based ambulance chasing lawyer.  

If a law that prohibits asking for proof of vaccination also removes virtually all virus related liability we'd have a winner. 

Does that kind of thing happen for noro or the flu now? A vaccine is available for one of those, which occasionally is as effacious as J&J.

[MrMarc]

I may be in the minority, but I believe that in this situation (which is totally different than the eviction question) Federal law, which I believe the guidance or rules from the CDC have the power of since this deals directly with the health issue itself, will prevail. Federal law also applies to the boarder and immigration area, and I think this clearly involves interstate commerce.  But I know it doesn't matter what I think, it only means the probability of other lawsuits.  As a practical matter, I think the cruise lines would rather start with 100% vaccinated ships initially to avoid the bad press that a single case will bring, and the phase out the requirement over time.  And it seems that there is a large demand for 100% vaccinated cruises that are just not as loud as those that do not want it.  Even those who are actually against the vaccine should see that this is a much safer way to re-start the industry since the more cruises that occur without any cases make it less likley that an isolated incident will be used to shut it all down again.  But if that single cases happens in the first few weeks or months, then we might be back to square 1.

[twangster]

16 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

Does that kind of thing happen for noro or the flu now? A vaccine is available for one of those, which occasionally is as effacious as J&J.

As we all know the flu and this virus are not the same.  The flu is well known, as much as it can be.  The long term effects of SARS-CoV-2 is not well known nor has the flu produced anything close to the death tally.

In this case an attorney could argue that a prominent public health agency published extensive material regarding the dangers of cruise ships and SARS-CoV-2 yet a sweet innocent child will now suffer an entire lifetime of misery due to becoming infected on a cruise ship.  

It's almost like if the cruise lines don't follow the CDC all way into Crazytown with protocols they expose themselves to frivolous lawsuits claiming they didn't do enough to mitigate SARS-CoV-2.

If a grandparent can drop a child out a window and then sue the cruise line for having windows just imagine the coming tidal wave of lawsuits against the cruise lines.

At least during an initial restart there has to be something to protect companies that are not allowed to leverage vaccines to mitigate risk.  If the government is going to ban vaccine requirements then they should protect the companies from related litigation in the same stroke. 

[LizzyBee23]

8 minutes ago, twangster said:

As we all know the flu and this virus are not the same.  The flu is well known, as much as it can be.  The long term effects of SARS-CoV-2 is not well known nor has the flu produced anything close to the death tally.

In this case an attorney could argue that a prominent public health agency published extensive material regarding the dangers of cruise ships and SARS-CoV-2 yet a sweet innocent child will now suffer an entire lifetime of misery due to becoming infected on a cruise ship.  

It's almost like if the cruise lines don't follow the CDC all way into Crazytown with protocols they expose themselves to frivolous lawsuits claiming they didn't do enough to mitigate SARS-CoV-2.

If a grandparent can drop a child out a window and then sue the cruise line for having windows just imagine the coming tidal wave of lawsuits against the cruise lines.

At least during an initial restart there has to be something to protect companies that are not allowed to leverage vaccines to mitigate risk.  If the government is going to ban vaccine requirements then they should protect the companies from related litigation in the same stroke. 

Sure, it's not the flu, but life with pathogens isn't new and that's the point. Neither is someone trying to sue after catching one. I don't know of a case where it's been successful, and on the other hand there is actually precedent against it. 

This is akin to some of the fears early on in the pandemic, that sent states into a flurry to "protect" employers and businesses by passing broad immunity legislation. I believe Florida was one of them.

[LovetoCruise87]

All I know is that my family has no issue with getting vaccinated. All of us have been vaccinated and are now ready to set sail. 

20 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

  As a practical matter, I think the cruise lines would rather start with 100% vaccinated ships initially to avoid the bad press that a single case will bring, and the phase out the requirement over time.  And it seems that there is a large demand for 100% vaccinated cruises that are just not as loud as those that do not want it.   

I believe that is what the cruise lines should do. If you are someone who isn't comfortable with getting the vaccine, then you could wait until that requirement is phased out down the road. I really don't think that it would be that long anyway. 

My family and I are ready to go, we have all been vaccinated. 

[twangster]

9 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

Sure, it's not the flu, but life with pathogens isn't new and that's the point. Neither is someone trying to sue after catching one. I don't know of a case where it's been successful, and on the other hand there is actually precedent against it. 

This is akin to some of the fears early on in the pandemic, that sent states into a flurry to "protect" employers and businesses by passing broad immunity legislation. I believe Florida was one of them.

More hurried half baked legislation much like the vaccine passport ban.  

Cruise lines can't afford one case.  That outcome is unlikely when vaccines can't be required until the public health emergency has been declared over.  

The media will quickly shift back to hating cruise ships upon the first "outbreak" of more than one case.  

[twangster]

He's not backing down...

https://www.clickorlando.com/business/2021/05/13/gov-ron-desantis-says-florida-will-fill-void-if-cruise-lines-leave/

Gov. Ron DeSantis says Florida will fill void if cruise lines leave

[smokeybandit]

Nice little cat fight going on between Del Rio and DeSantis

[twangster]

15 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Nice little cat fight going on between Del Rio and DeSantis

Kind of dilutes his court case arguing losses from the CSO since ships can't sail from Florida. 

He just said it's no problem to fill that void if ships choose not to sail from FL. 

[LizzyBee23]

6 hours ago, twangster said:

More hurried half baked legislation much like the vaccine passport ban.  

Cruise lines can't afford one case.  That outcome is unlikely when vaccines can't be required until the public health emergency has been declared over.  

The media will quickly shift back to hating cruise ships upon the first "outbreak" of more than one case.  

There will be cases on board cruise ships though, vaccines or not... that's not really a question. Look at what's happening with the Yankees right now. If you accept this problematic framing, you lose.

[twangster]

9 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

There will be cases on board cruise ships though, vaccines or not... that's not really a question. Look at what's happening with the Yankees right now. If you accept this problematic framing, you lose.

Don't follow the Yankees.  Are they only allowing vaccinated fans in right now?

[LizzyBee23]

10 minutes ago, twangster said:

Don't follow the Yankees.  Are they only allowing vaccinated fans in right now?

They had seven people pop positive among their fully vaccinated coaching staff.

[twangster]

8 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

They had seven people pop positive among their fully vaccinated coaching staff.

Not a big deal. My understanding is that vaccinated shouldn't have a rough go of it and probably won't need hospitalization.  It will be interesting to see if that proves true.  

[smokeybandit]

12 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

They had seven people pop positive among their fully vaccinated coaching staff.

It'll be interesting to see if it was a batch of bad tests.  The NFL had a large batch of bad tests last year.

[LizzyBee23]

8 minutes ago, twangster said:

Not a big deal. My understanding is that vaccinated shouldn't have a rough go of it and probably won't need hospitalization.  It will be interesting to see if that proves true.  

If you're operating with a "no cases on board cruise ships" mentality it's a pretty big deal.

[twangster]

12 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

If you're operating with a "no cases on board cruise ships" mentality it's a pretty big deal.

Even the CDC admits chasing a zero count on a ship won't likely happen.  

[Matt]

11 hours ago, LizzyBee23 said:

They had seven people pop positive among their fully vaccinated coaching staff.

One thing cruise ships have going for them that MLB teams don't is multi-tiered approach.

Yankees rely only on vaccines. Based on what I've seen on TV, mask use is a joke among staff/players.

Cruise ships will have testing of every single person coming onboard, contact tracing, etc.

So I don't believe what MLB is seeing will be an apples-to-apples with cruises.

Something that the cruise industry has been telling the CDC, and the CDC has kind of relented on, is cruises cannot be a zero risk scenario. So yes, cases on a ship should be met with quarantine, treatment, contact tracing, and proper care.  But as they show in the entertainment industry, "the show must go on".

[LizzyBee23]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

One thing cruise ships have going for them that MLB teams don't is multi-tiered approach.

Yankees rely only on vaccines. Based on what I've seen on TV, mask use is a joke among staff/players.

Cruise ships will have testing of every single person coming onboard, contact tracing, etc.

So I don't believe what MLB is seeing will be an apples-to-apples with cruises.

Something that the cruise industry has been telling the CDC, and the CDC has kind of relented on, is cruises cannot be a zero risk scenario. So yes, cases on a ship should be met with quarantine, treatment, contact tracing, and proper care.  But as they show in the entertainment industry, "the show must go on".

In a world where COVID just isn't as deadly by virtue of population immunity (either derived from vaccines or from prior infection) and an improved standard of care, I would argue everything other than ensuring a ship is ready to provide urgent medical care (which let's be honest, cruise ships were lacking in this regard prior to COVID) and follow typical respiratory virus protocol (ie confining to quarters for a positive, symptomatic case) is theater. We are making no effort to contain the virus on shore, why would on a ship be any different, unless you are at risk of not being able to provide medical care if things go south?

[twangster]

OpEd in the Miami Herald

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article251238089.html#storylink=moresection

State of Florida should mind its own business. Let Norwegian require COVID vaccines on its ships | Editorial

[smokeybandit]

I mean, one could argue DeSantis IS minding his own business. Since the goings on in the state are his business.

[Matt]

Must be strange for Miami Herald to write something that doesn't slam the cruise lines, but kind of supports them

[twangster]

49 minutes ago, Matt said:

Must be strange for Miami Herald to write something that doesn't slam the cruise lines, but kind of supports them

I thought the same thing.  Did a double take on the URL... is this really the Herald?

[JeffB]

Judge Merryday has assigned the case to mediation. Not unexpected on my behalf actually.

This isn't an easy out for the CDC. Lead counsel for mediation is assigned by and operates under the supervision of Judge Merryday. I've read a couple of his opinions in unrelated cases. He's a hard ass and in the two cases I looked at, he knows the law and applies it.

Deadline for conclusion of the mediation is 1 June.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.51.0_19.pdf

[JeffB]

I think there are compelling arguments that FL got screwed. Was it unlawful? That's the rub. The law here, as I have been able to understand it is, really murky with a lot of overlap of jurisdiction and potential contradictions.

I don't think Merryday wanted anything to do with the fall-out if he ruled in FL's favor. The fall-out would have been a comprehensive review of a ton of maritime law as well as serious questions regarding the extent of PHE's - another mess that he'd rather have congressional hearings, after the fact - sort out and I feel pretty confident it will at least be discussed.

So what might the outcome of mediation be? Obviously we're biased. Its hard for me to separate my personal views of the mess the CDC has made for the cruise lines and itself. Their reputation for reliable PH guidance has unquestionably taken a huge hit without even considering what they've done to cruise lines. Most people don't even know about this other than cruise ships aren't cruising. The general view, I suspect, garnered from misleading stories from the CDC and augmented by the MSM, is that this is a good thing. Yeah for the CDC.

I think FL has leverage here because of the foregoing. The CDC can't be ass-holes and just sit there stone faced and not negotiate a settlement. A settlement clearly involves making the CSO workable. The road map for that is the Safe-to-Sail Panel's excellent provisions for infection control when it comes to SARS2. FL also can present the arguement that there is a record of cruise ships sailing elsewhere without the imposition of the CDC's ridiculous, complex and burdensome CSO. Instead, FL can argue, just cancel the CSO (or update to parallel) and use the Safe-To_sail Panels protocols and procedures. They work! The ASTA Amicus Brief isn't addressed in the order for Mediation but, I think Merryday punted to lead counsel for mediation on that motion and whether to allow it to be included or not.  I think it's pertinent to FL's calim but what do I know. 

The problem for FL is linking the relief they are seeking for damages sustained to the CSO being effectively changed. i.e., was the economic damage suffered and continues to suffered by the state a result of a faulty, potentially unlawful NSO/CSO? The ASTA Amicus argues there were other options. Obviously we agree.  We might think that is an easy legal hill to climb. It's probably not due to my first paragraph above. HHS is going to argue strongly that it has the authority to regulate cruise ship safety wrt infection control and sanitation. There's no where in the law that says they have to check with whomever to determine what the benefits of the PH actions they take versus the economic costs of whatever they decide to do. It's a public health emergency we're dealing with here. They will say," what is too high of an an economic cost when the benefits are lives saved?" I've actually seen this analysis and not only is it hard to do, its painful to read. Makes you think.

  

[JeffB]

...... one more thing. If you look at the form attached to the order for Mediation, you'll see there are a bunch of options for the mediator. One of them is the parties couldn't agree on a settlement. If that happens it's back in Merryday's lap and he will be pissed. That probably helps FL's case. Merryday is a conservative appointed by George Bush. I'd suspect he doesn't like the idea of big government rolling over states.

[jticarruthers]

17 minutes ago, JeffB said:

FL can argue, just cancel the CSO (or update to parallel) and use the Safe-To_sail Panels protocols and procedures. 

I think at this point it would be fair to argue, just return to normal like the rest of the state/country. The CDC stalled so long the pandemic ended before they got around to publishing their guidelines or sailing during the pandemic ...

[twangster]

Florida's position is the CSO is unlawful and shouldn't exist.  It's pretty hard to go anywhere from that position without admitting the CSO is lawful.  

Personally I hope FL maintains that position.  CSO is unlawful, period.