DunkelBierJay Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 14 hours ago, twangster said: I did it folks. Just like I said I would. I went to a bar, drank a beer and ate a grilled mahi sandwich. In retrospect reading CDC guidance I realize my life is now over. I didn't wear a mask for the entire meal. I ate bite after bite, drinking swig after swig of glorious food and beverage indoors at a bar. Even though I'm fully vaccinated and even though I left a nice tip my life is over per CDC guidance. Apparently I vaccinated for no reason. In case I am whisked off tomorrow and placed on a ventilator you'll know why I haven't stopped by the message boards. At least I'll go knowing the CDC saved me from a cruise ship given their guidance didn't save me from myself. move to TN (or FL)...we've been in restaurants and churches (maskless) in areas other than Nashville and Memphis since JULY with numbers that are similar to or better than states that are still locked down. Makes you wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said: Fully vaccinated people no longer need to wear a mask outdoors, except in certain crowded settings and venues. Those "certain crowded settings" were simply crowds that had unvaccinated people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinghawg Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: Those "certain crowded settings" were simply crowds that had unvaccinated people. I believe you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 I want everywhere possible to require a vaccine passport for entry when they are available. Flights, restaurants, theme parks, international travel. It's safer for everyone, and would give an incentive for antivaxxers to change. jticarruthers, JC Pats and JasonOasis 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 19 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I want everywhere possible to require a vaccine passport for entry when they are available. Flights, restaurants, theme parks, international travel. It's safer for everyone, and would give an incentive for antivaxxers to change. As a fully vaccinated individual I understand your position but disagree they should be required everywhere. There are valid reasons not to vaccinate. No need to get into them here, they exist. We need a common sense approach that allows both vaccinated and unvaccinated to participate that allows for individuals to arrive at their own conclusion without placing undue protocols on those at lower risk. Unvaccinated should consider their risk level as they make choices but don't make all of society have to endure protocols for the choices of unvaccinated. teddy, SebagoSue, Ampurp85 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I want everywhere possible to require a vaccine passport for entry when they are available. Flights, restaurants, theme parks, international travel. It's safer for everyone, and would give an incentive for antivaxxers to change. The minute that happens is the minute those same entities can discriminate against you for any reason they want. UNCFanatik, vanelli56, alamode123 and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icf75 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 46 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I want everywhere possible to require a vaccine passport for entry when they are available. Flights, restaurants, theme parks, international travel. It's safer for everyone, and would give an incentive for antivaxxers to change. Wow vaccine apartheid! Incentives and coercion should not be pushed! In fact once the 'at risk' groups are fully vaccinated there should be no need to vaccinate everyone. Have you researched the actual risks? vanelli56, jticarruthers, alamode123 and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 34 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I want everywhere possible to require a vaccine passport for entry when they are available. Flights, restaurants, theme parks, international travel. It's safer for everyone, and would give an incentive for antivaxxers to change. Before I begin. I am fully vaccinated because of my wife's profession. We are still talking about an Emergency Use authorized vaccine. There are still questions out there short term and long term about side effects just look at Johnson and Johnson disaster "handled by the FDA/CDC". The government is contributing to vaccine hesitancy the way they handled the J&J vaccine and messaging regarding what vaccinated people can do. Its insulting to lump everyone into one bucket who has their own reasons for not getting the vaccine and call them an anti-vaxxer. The CDC is driven by politics now. Science and Data no longer drive their decision making and recommendations now. Just look at the madness they are proposing for children at summer camps. Look at the CDC being driven by the teacher's unions to open schools back up. And now they are talking about children getting the vaccines. Children are more at risk from the Season Flu than they are from Covid. Study after study shows this. Parents have every right to evaluate whether they should vaccinate their children from Covid especially in this early phase. To bring it back on topic. I am pro-business. I think businesses should have the right to set the terms of service in their personal establishments as long as it complies with the Law especially in areas of discrimination. With that said, I think Vaccine passports are a terrible idea for business because it affects their bottom line. Do we really want to create a defacto caste system? Where the "unwashed" are discriminated against because they refuse vaccination for whatever reason, be it existing medical conditions or personal risk assessment. If I were in my 20s and in the shape of my life, I would be VERY hesitant to get the vaccine for a .05 or so chance I may get Covid. We don't live in a zero risk world. Zero Covid is never going to happen because the cost of that would be devastating. I am old enough to remember that once upon a time, people could make their own risk assessment without the Nanny State trying to dictate unscientific guidelines upon the general populace. The leading comorbidity of Covid is obesity at 70%. Yes, Royal is in their right to make vaccines mandatory because they just want to get sailing again and stop bleeding so much cash. They have to appease the CDC Gods. I get it. But in the long run, I think its a bad business move to require vaccines for cruises once the pandemic is declared an end in the year 2309. Loops, Snowchaser, teddy and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 Please do not debate the efficacy of vaccines. Keep this to the CDC and cruise ships. DJsMrs, Reigert2008 and joshgates 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 1 hour ago, icf75 said: Wow vaccine apartheid! Incentives and coercion should not be pushed! In fact once the 'at risk' groups are fully vaccinated there should be no need to vaccinate everyone. Have you researched the actual risks? No, safety first. Molecular genetics and molecular immunology degree, so I know the science. With two different types of vaccines (mRNA and viral), the likelihood of anyone being allergic to both is approximately 0.0006 percent or 6 people for every million. The vast majority of people who aren't vaccinated are doing it by choice. If you are choosing not to vaccinate, you're also choosing not to cruise. For everyone on board's safety. JLMoran 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, smokeybandit said: The minute that happens is the minute those same entities can discriminate against you for any reason they want. Not at all. The ADA clearly states that businesses must make accommodations as long as they don't display a direct threat[ii] to its employees or customers. Not vaccinating is a direct threat.https://nwadacenter.org/factsheet/face-coverings-and-businesses-balancing-ada-public-health-during-covid-19-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 NCL is not happy https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/06/norwegian-cruise-line-ceo-says-july-cruises-us-not-possible cruisellama 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, twangster said: NCL is not happy https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/06/norwegian-cruise-line-ceo-says-july-cruises-us-not-possible I dont blame them for not being happy. They were the ones that came out in April, as mentioned, for 100% vaccinated plan for crew and passengers. They bent over backwards for the CDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 Not being vaccinated in no way would constitute a "direct thread" under the terms of the ADA. The text outright says "direct threat" cannot be based on generalizations. 4ensic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, twangster said: NCL is not happy https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/06/norwegian-cruise-line-ceo-says-july-cruises-us-not-possible My guess is if they are going the 100 percent vaccination route, the issue is Florida, not the CDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, twangster said: NCL is not happy https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/06/norwegian-cruise-line-ceo-says-july-cruises-us-not-possible No surprise. I'm sure every other cruise line is saying the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, alamode123 said: My guess is if they are going the 100 percent vaccination route, the issue is Florida, not the CDC. CDC is the source of their angst. 4ensic and UNCFanatik 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: Not being vaccinated in no way would constitute a "direct thread" under the terms of the ADA. The text outright says "direct threat" cannot be based on generalizations. Didn't read the link did you? It specifically states that COVID is a direct threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, twangster said: CDC is the source of their angst. If they start today preparing, 90 days out would be August. Does nothing they've don already count towards those 90 days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said: I dont blame them for not being happy. They were the ones that came out in April, as mentioned, for 100% vaccinated plan for crew and passengers. They bent over backwards for the CDC. Yep, and it all it gets them is bypassing test cruises. The rest of the CSO is in full force. NCL has stated no cruises in July now. CDC pulled the rug out from us once again. 4ensic and JLMoran 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, alamode123 said: If they start today preparing, 90 days out would be August. Does nothing they've don already count towards those 90 days? The CDC didn't fix the CSO or make it better. More of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, alamode123 said: If they start today preparing, 90 days out would be August. Does nothing they've don already count towards those 90 days? They still need shore agreements which I'd imagine is proving very difficult as cases wane. They still need to tell passengers that despite the passengers' efforts to get vaccinated, it means nothing on board according to the CDC. And the biggest issue is they still need approval from the CDC to start restricted cruising whether they bypass test cruises or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, alamode123 said: No, safety first. Molecular genetics and molecular immunology degree, so I know the science. With two different types of vaccines (mRNA and viral), the likelihood of anyone being allergic to both is approximately 0.0006 percent or 6 people for every million. The vast majority of people who aren't vaccinated are doing it by choice. If you are choosing not to vaccinate, you're also choosing not to cruise. For everyone on board's safety. Safety? That cuts both ways. There are safety risks one has to assume with getting not fully FDA approved vaccines as well. How well are they doing on VAERS reporting on side effects? They may be low risk but so is the risk from being hospitalized and dying from Covid if you are not in vulnerable category. And then there is the whole matter of those that have had Covid previously and the % of population that have shown to have natural immunity from Covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, twangster said: Yep, and it all it gets them is bypassing test cruises. The rest of the CSO is in full force. NCL has stated no cruises in July now. CDC pulled the rug out from us once again. So if they choose the vaccinate option, what is needed by the cruise industry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, alamode123 said: So if they choose the vaccinate option, what is needed by the cruise industry? Everything except test cruises. Nothing else changes. Same old CSO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_0 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, alamode123 said: So if they choose the vaccinate option, what is needed by the cruise industry? Here's a link to another post listing specific impactful changes required regardless of vaccination levels present for passengers and crew. Essentially the CDC is trying to have it both ways. Force cruise lines to implement protocols that should've been used to run the industry when there were NO vaccines, AND force them to carry fully vaccinated passengers to sail during the summer season or lose that revenue to lost time executing the test sailings. 4ensic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate91 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 The CDC has been slowly making things "better" with these updates to the NSO, then the CSO. However, the "better" has been in such small increments, it's like a student who got a 3% on a test. They then raised their grade to a 4%, and a few months later, the grade is at a 5%. Is it better? Yes. Are they passing the class? Nope. At this rate, May 12th (or a few days after) will tell us whether or not we'll have 2021 cruises (and potentially whether cruise lines will exist in 2022). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovetoCruise87 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 29 minutes ago, twangster said: CDC is the source of their angst. CDC is the source of everyone's angst at the moment. The CDC has gotten too big for its britches. It seems to think that they are something more than they actually are. CDC stands for Center for Disease Control, NOT Center for Cruise Control. They know that there is nothing they can do about airports, resorts, theme parks, etc, so they are hanging on as hard as they can to controlling the cruise industry and if they are not careful they will drive the cruise industry away from the United States. 4ensic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_0 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, nate91 said: The CDC has been slowly making things "better" with these updates to the NSO, then the CSO. However, the "better" has been in such small increments, it's like a student who got a 3% on a test. They then raised their grade to a 4%, and a few months later, the grade is at a 5%. Is it better? Yes. Are they passing the class? Nope. At this rate, May 12th (or a few days after) will tell us whether or not we'll have 2021 cruises (and potentially whether cruise lines will exist in 2022). Consumers are not going to get vaccinated to cruise, then go on a vacation that treats them as if they haven't been vaccinated and restricts them to the level the CDC is expecting. Cancellations will mount quickly if these requirements remain for fully vaccinated passengers. Every time the CDC releases guidance the cruise lines get closer to homeporting outside the US. If the CDC continues on this path without intervention from the Federal Court hearing Florida's (Alaska, Texas) case it's a guarentee they will choose to homeport the majority of their ships outside the US/CDC jurisdiction for the foreseeable future. nate91 and 4ensic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovetoCruise87 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, 0_0 said: Consumers are not going to get vaccinated to cruise, then go on a vacation that treats them as if they haven't been vaccinated and restricts them to the level the CDC is expecting. Cancellations will mount quickly if these requirements remain for fully vaccinated passengers. Every time the CDC releases guidance the cruise lines get closer to homeporting outside the US. If the CDC continues on this path without intervention from the Federal Court hearing Florida's (Alaska, Texas) case it's a guarentee they will choose to homeport the majority of their ships outside the US/CDC jurisdiction for the foreseeable future. I agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alamode123 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, 0_0 said: Cancellations will mount quickly if these requirements remain for fully vaccinated passengers. I'm guessing more cancellations would occur if vaccines are NOT required. People want to vacation safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, 0_0 said: If the CDC continues on this path without intervention from the Federal Court hearing Florida's (Alaska, Texas) case it's a guarentee they will choose to homeport the majority of their ships outside the US/CDC jurisdiction for the foreseeable future. I think that is the plan. No one at the CDC is happy the pandemic happened but they are taking the opportunity presented to purge cruising from the US. cruisellama, BarbieBell, Baked Alaska and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXcruzer Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I'm guessing more cancellations would occur if vaccines are NOT required. People want to vacation safely. It's all a moot point because, vaccines aside; the CSO is unworkable. The shoreside quarantine agreements alone make it nearly impossible to accomplish the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 13 minutes ago, alamode123 said: I'm guessing more cancellations would occur if vaccines are NOT required. People want to vacation safely. People have varying definitions of what "safely" means though. LizzyBee23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovetoCruise87 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 I'm upset with they way the CDC is handling this, not just in terms of us being able to cruise again, but I think of all the jobs that would be permanently lost in all of the US ports if the Cruise lines decide to move their ship off shore away from the US and CDC jurisdiction. 0_0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirc Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 43 minutes ago, twangster said: No one at the CDC is happy the pandemic happened but they are taking the opportunity presented to purge cruising from the US. Why would this be the goal of the CDC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thman Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 Since NCL needs 90 days to be ready to sail from U.S. ports and assuming Royal is in the same position will Royal be ready for November sailings? Since Phase 4 hasn't been released how can the CDC say you can sail under these terms? Will they change the requirements at phase 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steverk Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, Eirc said: Why would this be the goal of the CDC? Just speculating, but I can think of a couple motives, none flattering. The scientists and/or bureaucrats at the CDC work in obscurity. Now they are in the limelight. It's simply more fun to be in the limelight. Therefore, they have a personal interest in keeping this whole thing going as long a possible. Obama had an Executive order making the primary goal of all federal departments to fight global warming. CDC might be anticipating that order will be reinstated. If so, they've already eliminated a CO2 emitter from the USA. Keeping it out would be a feather in their cap. If this speculation is correct, they would be wise to recognize that every day they continue to play these games is one more day they lose the trust and respect of the American people. Once trust and respect is gone, they'll still exist as an organization (after all, nothing is more permanent than a government agency), but it won't have any real power. i.e. no fun anymore. 4ensic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate91 Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 20 minutes ago, steverk said: Just speculating, but I can think of a couple motives, none flattering. The scientists and/or bureaucrats at the CDC work in obscurity. Now they are in the limelight. It's simply more fun to be in the limelight. Therefore, they have a personal interest in keeping this whole thing going as long a possible. Obama had an Executive order making the primary goal of all federal departments to fight global warming. CDC might be anticipating that order will be reinstated. If so, they've already eliminated a CO2 emitter from the USA. Keeping it out would be a feather in their cap. If this speculation is correct, they would be wise to recognize that every day they continue to play these games is one more day they lose the trust and respect of the American people. Once trust and respect is gone, they'll still exist as an organization (after all, nothing is more permanent than a government agency), but it won't have any real power. i.e. no fun anymore. Well, they've lost my trust already. Whenever I see an article that mentions "CDC" in the headline, I immediately assume that it is false, overstated, or most likely alarmist. Also, why do we treat CDC guidance as gospel this year? No one has had a problem with medium rare steaks or eggs over easy before, and CDC guidance has been against those for years! jticarruthers, Neesa, 4ensic and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steverk Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, nate91 said: Well, they've lost my trust already. Whenever I see an article that mentions "CDC" in the headline, I immediately assume that it is false, overstated, or most likely alarmist. Also, why do we treat CDC guidance as gospel this year? No one has had a problem with medium rare steaks or eggs over easy before, and CDC guidance has been against those for years! They lost mine after about a week of the pandemic, but I guess some people are more trusting of "scientists" than I. Anyway, I was responding to a post that asked what their motive could be. I only speculated. I'm sure the CDC has convinced itself that they have our best interests at heart. Who knows? Maybe they do! I've just come to the conclusion that they are deluding themselves. 4ensic and jticarruthers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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