Zurc Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 9 hours ago, twangster said: In a way it is but not how we want it to be. The 98/95% rule is a way to bypass test cruises BUT it's not a way to bypass the rest of the CSO. All it does is bypass the need for test cruises. We all want vaccines to bypass the the entire CSO. They don't, only the need to do test cruises. So, has CDC removed the requirement in the CSO that gangways can only be used once every 12 hours? IMO that was a ridiculous mandate. The airlines would have been up in arms if the same rule had been mandated for the aviation industry, Ogilthorpe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 53 minutes ago, Zurc said: So, has CDC removed the requirement in the CSO that gangways can only be used once every 12 hours? IMO that was a ridiculous mandate. The airlines would have been up in arms if the same rule had been mandated for the aviation industry, That one got removed shortly after they issued that guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurc Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 hours ago, smokeybandit said: That one got removed shortly after they issued that guidance. Thanks, I missed that update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 Del Rio interview on CNBC puts doubt on August, discusses CDC update. Calls it "UnAmerican". Cruising With JT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 I've been digging through the CDC's "Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order", which has so many of these rules, but I ran across something that gives me some hope. Under the Purpose header, it specifically states all of these are suggestions, and not requirements. Quote This manual is not intended as, and does not constitute, a comprehensive statement regarding a cruise ship operator’s duties and obligations under CDC’s CSO. These instructions reflect CDC’s reasoned judgement based on the best available current science regarding the subject areas covered in the document. Cruise ship operators should carefully consider and incorporate these instructions in developing their own health and safety protocols. My opinion is the manual is a catch-all super-conservative approach to cruising so CDC can point to later and say "SEE? We told you that you should have done X, Y, and Z" if there's an issue. But that statement tells me cruise lines don't have to do anything in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, Matt said: I've been digging through the CDC's "Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order", which has so many of these rules, but I ran across something that gives me some hope. Under the Purpose header, it specifically states all of these are suggestions, and not requirements. My opinion is the manual is a catch-all super-conservative approach to cruising so CDC can point to later and say "SEE? We told you that you should have done X, Y, and Z" if there's an issue. But that statement tells me cruise lines don't have to do anything in here. In various sections for operation of voyages there are lists of "Requirements" and "Recommendations". Do you not see the requirements as being absolute? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, twangster said: Do you not see the requirements as being absolute? Isn't this the same agency that uses nights and days interchangeably when talking about cruise duration? In all seriousness, that statement at the top says to me "everything here is not required" because it says that cruise ship operators should carefully consider and incorporate these instructions in developing their own health and safety protocols. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_0 Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 The application for conditional sail says otherwise and cruise lines have to sign their name to doing all the "requirements". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 9 minutes ago, 0_0 said: The application for conditional sail says otherwise and cruise lines have to sign their name to doing all the "requirements". Ahhhhhh, now I see what you and @twangster mean. So the manual has "recommendations" and "requirements". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 9 minutes ago, Matt said: Isn't this the same agency that uses nights and days interchangeably when talking about cruise duration? In all seriousness, that statement at the top says to me "everything here is not required" because it says that cruise ship operators should carefully consider and incorporate these instructions in developing their own health and safety protocols. I don't see the CDC verbiage as declaring the CSO contents are optional, more that they don't guarantee an outcome. The CDC doesn't want to be liable if the cruise lines do everything in the CSO and a COVID death still occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 So they have to attest to the fact they'll follow the requirements of a set of rules that even the requirements are suggestions? Seems very CDC-like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 "These instructions reflect CDC’s reasoned judgement based on the best available current science regarding the subject areas covered in the document. " If by current science they mean science from a year ago... jticarruthers, Floski and Matt 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loops Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 I would say it’s “the best available current junk science”. (This must be what they mean when they say “political science” - a true oxymoron!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: "These instructions reflect CDC’s reasoned judgement based on the best available current science regarding the subject areas covered in the document. " If by current science they mean science from a year ago... Science from 1347 seems to be considered current at the CDC. The word quarantine comes from quarantena, meaning "forty days", used in the Venetian language in the 14th and 15th centuries. The word is designated in the period during which all ships were required to be isolated before passengers and crew could go ashore during the Black Death plague. The quarantena followed the trentino, or "thirty-day isolation" period, first imposed in 1347 in the Republic of Ragusa, Dalmatia (modern Dubrovnik in Croatia).[1][2][3][4] source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine#:~:text=The word "quarantine" originates from,prevention related to the plague. 0_0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 This is my question about masks: Doesn't that suggest that once you have left USA waters, the mask order no longer applies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 7, 2021 Report Share Posted May 7, 2021 37 minutes ago, smokeybandit said: This is my question about masks: Doesn't that suggest that once you have left USA waters, the mask order no longer applies? Simply leaving US water doesn't remove federal oversight when the start or end of the voyage involves a US port. If a noro outbreak occurs on a ship that is home ported in the US the ship is required to report it to the CDC regardless where on the voyage the outbreak is declared. If they are in Aruba when the outbreak is declared they are required to report the outbreak to the CDC. For a ship based in another country that doesn't touch the US on the voyage the CDC has no authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 10, 2021 Report Share Posted May 10, 2021 UCF dropping mask requirement on campus in Florida. Encouraged but not required. https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2021/05/10/ucf-no-longer-requiring-masks-on-campus-effective-immediately/ Students packed in a lecture hall or cafeteria is different from a cruise ship right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGTLH Posted May 10, 2021 Report Share Posted May 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, twangster said: Students packed in a lecture hall or cafeteria is different from a cruise ship right? Hush now... students don't spend a week close together then spread out throughout the community afterwards... /s twangster, PRebecca, JasonOasis and 2 others 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 01020 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 "US cruises could restart soon with 'passenger voyages by mid-July,' CDC says" Yeah, but...mid-July of what year?! steverk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 Breaking news... CDC states "Pigs could fly" but looking into the details of their statement it was discovered pigs would need to grow wings first. To prove her point, Director Walensky addressed Congress on the matter: The CDC has since released another statement offering to make it easier for pigs to fly by eliminating test flights however growing wings is still a condition all pigs would need to meet in order to qualify. Ampurp85, PPPJJ-GCVAB, Ogilthorpe and 2 others 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 A look at the CDC's "preposterous" requirements for cruise ships test sailings https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/11/look-the-cdcs-preposterous-requirements-cruise-ships-test-sailings Craig 01020 and Matt 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 01020 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 The CDC have lost their minds. I'm glad my next cruise is from a non-US port. jticarruthers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 The Alaskan senator is now grilling Walensky/Fauci on WTF is going on with cruises. "Can you give Alaskans any real guidance on when cruises can start?" Walensky basically says a lot of words with no real info, other than saying "we've given the cruise lines all the info they need on Phase 2A, 2B and 3" and we're still working through any difficulties the cruise lines have with adhering to guidance that's been given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonOasis Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 38 minutes ago, Craig 01020 said: The CDC have lost their minds. I'm glad my next cruise is from a non-US port. I was holding out on booking a cruise out of the Bahamas because I thought cruising would resume in this country at some point in July. But every time I have hope the CDC finds a way to crush it. I think I'm just going to have book a cruise on Adventure in August because at this point I'm starting to loose faith that my October cruise on Symphony will happen. Craig 01020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeybandit Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 This doesn't surprise me. The requirements of those shore agreements are so archaic and carry heavy liability for the "shore" side. Neither side wants to have to agree to those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate91 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 I think the cruise lines may be putting not all their eggs, but a majority of them into the "May 12th" basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 20 minutes ago, nate91 said: I think the cruise lines may be putting not all their eggs, but a majority of them into the "May 12th" basket. If you mean they've come to the realization that May 12 may be the only path to cruises this summer I think that is accurate. I don't see them sitting around the boardroom table waiting for a call from an observer in the courtroom. They are likely exploring every crazy idea under the sun. So the eggs may be parked in a basket on May 12 for the moment but that's as much to keep them safe while they toss around crazy ideas most of which will never see the light of day as it is the lines hoping a judge comes through. jticarruthers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate91 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 20 minutes ago, twangster said: If you mean they've come to the realization that May 12 may be the only path to cruises this summer I think that is accurate. I don't see them sitting around the boardroom table waiting for a call from an observer in the courtroom. They are likely exploring every crazy idea under the sun. So the eggs may be parked in a basket on May 12 for the moment but that's as much to keep them safe while they toss around crazy ideas most of which will never see the light of day as it is the lines hoping a judge comes through. Exactly. Any cruises under the existing CSO will be at minimum a few months from now, filled with insane restrictions, and likely poorly attended. Anyone will be able to cancel under CWC (if it's extended), and even besides that for other cruise lines, people who don't like the insane regulations can just claim to be vaccinated and get a refund (regardless of actual vaccination status. If we can see that tomorrow is our only hope, I'm sure the cruise lines can see the writing on the wall as well. I'm hopeful, but not convinced that tomorrow will be the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 Carnival sees hope for July for three ships but cancels other ships in July. https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/11/carnival-cancels-some-july-2021-cruises-hopes-restart-some-ships-us-july JasonOasis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nate91 Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, twangster said: Carnival sees hope for July for three ships but cancels other ships in July. https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/11/carnival-cancels-some-july-2021-cruises-hopes-restart-some-ships-us-july I have an August Mardis Gras sailing and while not cancelled, all sailings for Mardis Gras have disappeared from Carnival's website through October. jticarruthers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonOasis Posted May 11, 2021 Report Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 hour ago, twangster said: Carnival sees hope for July for three ships but cancels other ships in July. https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/11/carnival-cancels-some-july-2021-cruises-hopes-restart-some-ships-us-july It is only a matter of time before Royal follows suit, and cancels most of their July sailings from US ports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordell1 Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/11/cdcs-credibility-is-eroding-amid-conflicting-mask-guidance-ex-obama-official-says.html This is notable because it is coming from a former Obama official and from a network that is aligned with the Biden administration. Political pressure is what will cause the White House to force action by the CDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steverk Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 14 hours ago, JasonOasis said: It is only a matter of time before Royal follows suit, and cancels most of their July sailings from US ports Even if the court rules in Florida's favor, it is doubtful that any cruise line will be able to start a large number of ships before July. Therefore, even in the best case scenario, many, perhaps most, July sailings will be cancelled. Worst case...we don't need to dwell on the worst case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 What really needs to happen is for the current CDC director be forced to resign or is fired and then the CDC can do a reset on their guidance. Walensky showed again yesterday in the hearing with Congress why she is not fit to lead the CDC. The administration could offer her up as a sacrificial lamb and move forward with more science and data based guidance from the CDC that is actually based on current, not outdated, data. This goes beyond just cruiselines. The CDC guidance on summer camps for children is harmful to children and down right child abuse to expect kids at camp to be masked outside in 90+ degree temps. Its time for a change of leadership of the CDC that will allow the admin to save some face here. LizzyBee23, steverk, SebagoSue and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, steverk said: Even if the court rules in Florida's favor, it is doubtful that any cruise line will be able to start a large number of ships before July. Therefore, even in the best case scenario, many, perhaps most, July sailings will be cancelled. Worst case...we don't need to dwell on the worst case! I understand Royal waiting on todays hearing but why is Royal always the last to announce cancellations? Royal needs to break their silence by the end of the week on July cruisings out of the US. I believe they announced June cancellations around April 8th. Royal needs to communicate to customers with July sailings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steverk Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said: I understand Royal waiting on todays hearing but why is Royal always the last to announce cancellations? Royal needs to break their silence by the end of the week on July cruisings out of the US. I believe they announced June cancellations around April 8th. Royal needs to communicate to customers with July sailings. I see your point, but I'm cantankerous and have to present another point of view! Cancelling now would give us all a better idea of how to plan for the future and would in some ways give us relief. On the other hand, I also like the idea that Royal is doing everything they can to make my upcoming sailing a reality. That includes working as long as possible to make it happen. I share your frustration with this though! UNCFanatik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNCFanatik Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 Meanwhile in other news. MGM is planning today on opening up full capacity on their gaming floors in Vegas. You know, people in close proximity with one another for hours upon end sharing the same air and also staying in the Hotel where they have gambled, ate and went to shows. Of course, this is MUCH different than cruising. LizzyBee23 and SebagoSue 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mook1525 Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said: Meanwhile in other news. MGM is planning today on opening up full capacity on their gaming floors in Vegas. You know, people in close proximity with one another for hours upon end sharing the same air and also staying in the Hotel where they have gambled, ate and went to shows. Of course, this is MUCH different than cruising. 2 weeks ago I spent 3 days at Great Wolf Lodge where they have.... in-freaking-door pool for guests. I never left the indoor resort for 3 days and still have no idea why entire cruise industry is shut down. just boggles my mind UNCFanatik and emmef 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 12, 2021 Report Share Posted May 12, 2021 If the cruise lines got together and coordinated the shoreside health provider contract there could be some economies of scale. One cruise line isn't known for playing well with others but perhaps NCL and Royal could coordinate their efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twangster Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/17/carnival-active-discussions-cdc-restart-cruises-july Carnival hinting at July. Carnival Cruise Line President Christine Duffy said in an interview with NBC Nightly News the cruise line is working with the CDC to gain permission to restart sailings in July, which will carry no vaccine mandate for passengers in order to sail. Celebrity has a big TA call tomorrow. They've added a second session on Thursday to handle the anticipated numbers of TAs. cruisellama 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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