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Florida House passes bill to permanently ban COVID-19 'vaccine passports'


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With a key lawmaker saying he recognizes that vaccine hesitancy is "real and understandable," the Florida House on Wednesday approved a measure that would limit local emergency orders and make permanent Gov. Ron DeSantis’ executive order barring COVID-19 vaccine "passports."

The House voted 76-40 to approve the proposal (SB 2006), which Pandemics & Public Emergencies Committee Chairman Tom Leek, R-Ormond Beach, said would prepare Florida for the next public-health emergency while striking a "delicate balance between protecting people and protecting people's civil liberties."

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Hmmm.  Searching business records I don't see that Royal Caribbean International is registered as a business in Florida.  

The corporate entity (RCG) is registered but they don't offer cruises.  Several instances of former related companies are showing inactive.  Celebrity Cruises Inc with a place of business in Miami is listed.

However in the shipping world its well known that each ship is a shell company on its own.  I don't see any ship "company" registered with the state.  This makes sense.  Could you imagine the paperwork involved with registering every ship in every jurisdiction they visited?

Any experts in Admiralty law?  Given the complex corporate structure of shipping companies, particularly with respect to foreign flagged ships, are they considered a Florida business entity?  

They don't pay Florida business taxation like an otherwise normal Florida business does.  

So does this bill impact cruise ship operations?

 

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Thinking about the wording of the bill, no business can require that you provide proof of vaccination.  Okay. 

So what if a business takes the approach "Everyone must wear ten masks.  If you voluntarily show us proof of vaccination you don't have to wear a mask.  You are not required to show proof of vaccination, the choice is yours."

That's a bit extreme to illustrate a point.

If a business, just like the CDC is doing, motivates you to take one path at your own discretion, doesn't that get around the bill?

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6 hours ago, twangster said:

Hmmm.  Searching business records I don't see that Royal Caribbean International is registered as a business in Florida.  

The corporate entity (RCG) is registered but they don't offer cruises.  Several instances of former related companies are showing inactive.  Celebrity Cruises Inc with a place of business in Miami is listed.

However in the shipping world its well known that each ship is a shell company on its own.  I don't see any ship "company" registered with the state.  This makes sense.  Could you imagine the paperwork involved with registering every ship in every jurisdiction they visited?

Any experts in Admiralty law?  Given the complex corporate structure of shipping companies, particularly with respect to foreign flagged ships, are they considered a Florida business entity?  

They don't pay Florida business taxation like an otherwise normal Florida business does.  

So does this bill impact cruise ship operations?

 

Very complex situation. The ports in Florida are within the state boundaries.

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Very complex as the entity Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd has it's headquarters in Miami, but all of the ships are registered in the Bahamas. None of their ships were built in the USA thus they don't have to be registered here. That begs the question, if they are not registered in the USA, not built in the USA, only the company headquarters is located here, are they required to follow the law of the state in which their ships are homeported?

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14 hours ago, twangster said:

If cruises and by association the cruise lines are "Florida business entities" under s. 768.38, wouldn't they qualify for state assistance like the seaports have?

I would say yes. But as they have not received any state assistance during the pandemic, then that would in theory release them from the no vaccine passport. 

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One other thing that I just read in an article. A maritime lawyer in Miami said that DeSantis may not have the jurisdiction needed to either prohibit cruise lines from enforcing a vaccine mandate or bring cruises back. So it makes sense that since we know that he does not have the power to allowing cruising to start back in the state, he would not have the authority to keep cruise lines from enforcing a vaccine mandate.
 

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6 hours ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

One other thing that I just read in an article. A maritime lawyer in Miami said that DeSantis may not have the jurisdiction needed to either prohibit cruise lines from enforcing a vaccine mandate or bring cruises back. So it makes sense that since we know that he does not have the power to allowing cruising to start back in the state, he would not have the authority to keep cruise lines from enforcing a vaccine mandate.
 

This is correct. It's extremely complicated, but the short version is that foreign-flagged cruise ships fall under federal jurisdiction. So the state regulations wouldn't apply. 

Privately, I'm sure the cruise lines are hoping the federal government will be the "bad cop" and require vaccines instead of doing through cruise line policies. That said, the lines are keenly aware of what is at stake of any negative publicity from someone catching COVID on a cruise. (Think about every time you hear a story about a norovirus outbreak on a ship and then multiply that times a million.) So they're going to want as many vaccinated passengers, one way or another, as possible. The cruise industry's margin for error is extremely slim. 

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9 hours ago, WesKinetic said:

This is correct. It's extremely complicated, but the short version is that foreign-flagged cruise ships fall under federal jurisdiction. So the state regulations wouldn't apply. 

 

Yes and NO. Ports are within state boundaries and they extend beyond land. 

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On 4/29/2021 at 11:03 PM, RoyalLaker said:

Very complex situation. The ports in Florida are within the state boundaries.

 

This isn't my area of expertise but I thought the physical ports themselves while within state boundaries are under federal jurisdiction.  

If the state of Florida somehow does have the power to ban cruise lines from asking for vaccine verification does that ban also apply to airlines?  What is the difference between a cruise line asking to see your vaccination card and an airline asking to see your vaccination card?   I just find it interesting that they are targeting the cruise industry while you have international airlines operating out of Florida right now asking to see a vaccination card or a negative COVID test depending on the passengers final international destination. 

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36 minutes ago, JasonOasis said:

 

This isn't my area of expertise but I thought the physical ports themselves while within state boundaries are under federal jurisdiction.  

If the state of Florida somehow does have the power to ban cruise lines from asking for vaccine verification does that ban also apply to airlines?  What is the difference between a cruise line asking to see your vaccination card and an airline asking to see your vaccination card?   I just find it interesting that they are targeting the cruise industry while you have international airlines operating out of Florida right now asking to see a vaccination card or a negative COVID test depending on the passengers final international destination. 

It's not absolute, all federal control or all state control, it's a combined or shared function.  There are differents areas of jurisdiction.

Ships are subject to some city and state regulations such as the ability to serve or tax alcohol or operate a casino on board while in port.  Local taxation and regulations apply down to the city and state level but foreign flagged ships are also governed by international maritime treaties so a local ordinance related to something like ADA regulations can't be applied to a ship that is in port.  For example if a ship doesn't have a wheelchair ramp into a restaurant that meets local code requirements they can't cite the ship like they could a local business but if a city or state has alcohol regulations those can be applied to a ship in port. 

Both NYC and Texas have different alcohol regulations that are well known and discussed on cruise forums that apply to cruise ships until they leave and clear territorial boundaries.  Florida has them too but they are less impactful so not as frequently discussed.

Carnival charges local taxes on a per drink basis while in a US port even if a guest has a drink package.  Royal factors these taxes into the bigger picture and doesn't charge them on each drink for guests with a drink package but if you read the terms and conditions of the drink package they could.  They do charge them to a guest if you don't have a package and buy each drink as you go.  In both cases taxes are remitted but handled different by company policy.  This is also one of many factors why ship stores or casinos are closed in port.  Some local city or state regulations do apply.     

Local law enforcement is usually present in any given US port and you will often see both federal and local authorities in their own watercraft policing the movement of vessels within a port.  For example you may see US Coast Guard and county sheriff patrols working side by side in their own watercraft.     

Many aspects of shipping (all shipping, not just cruise ships) falls under federal jurisdiction.  Public health inspections for example.  A cargo ship galley is subject to public health inspections.  Imagine if public health of shipping was left to each county.  Each county has its own unique code that can be different compared to another county in another state.  It would be very challenging for a cargo ship making calls in different ports to meet different county health code in each port they visit.  The solution was to make this a federal responsibility.

When it comes to shipping most laws have grown from cargo, container and tanker forms of shipping and cruise ships get painted by that same brush because they are a ship.  

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I am not sure that this is a fair statement "Florida Governor signs bill banning vaccine passports possibly affecting cruise ship restart"   He has been very supportive for a restart of the cruise lines.  In his press conference, did he actually say this? No.   Some of us have given him kudos for putting pressure on the CDC and Washington to get cruising back up, unfortunately, once he shows that he wants to protect our rights, things turn and head south.  

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9 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

I didn't say it would or wouldnt, but I am far from the first person to wonder if the no vaccine requirement law would have an effect.

Section 2 of the EO he signed (which was the precursor to this law) prohibits businesses from requiring their customers to "provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business."

Given what we saw last week from CDC, it would seem the new law and the CDC's opportunity for mid-July cruises are diametrically opposed.

I'm not a legal or business scholar, so who knows.  But by the looks, it MIGHT have an impact.

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20 minutes ago, Matt said:

I didn't say it would or wouldnt, but I am far from the first person to wonder if the no vaccine requirement law would have an effect.

Section 2 of the EO he signed (which was the precursor to this law) prohibits businesses from requiring their customers to "provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business."

Given what we saw last week from CDC, it would seem the new law and the CDC's opportunity for mid-July cruises are diametrically opposed.

I'm not a legal or business scholar, so who knows.  But by the looks, it MIGHT have an impact.

I'd like to see the cruise lines to come back with... "Okay Governor so you are saying we are a Florida business.  Cool.  In that case how about millions of stimulus money like you promised the seaports?".

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Matt for what is worth(never met you yet, although I think we have been on cruises before), I like having conversations with you as we both understand that having opinions on subjects allows for good feedback on this blog.

We have been pretty harsh on the CDC with what they have subjected the cruise lines to vs other industries during COVID.  And now, the CDC is putting unrealistic demands and pressure on the cruise lines putting this 95% number for passengers.  Ultimately, in my opinion, if we had a choice, things may be really easy to move on!  You can have the best of both worlds, people who want and have the vaccine and those who don't want it for future medical implications or for what ever reason they believe in. 

 

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13 minutes ago, twangster said:

 "Okay Governor so you are saying we are a Florida business.  Cool.  In that case how about millions of stimulus money like you promised the seaports?".

So what will happen if his is able to accomplish this or give out the money, what will you move on to next?

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The strategy Twangster proposed encouraging guests to opt into showing vaccine card is sound. It respects guests privacy and seems to comply with new law. If employed, this approach risks Royal not knowing the makeup of a sailing until after guests have boarded, potentially with a guest population on board which is less than 95% vaccinated. (This may change) This assumes Royal has no prior knowledge of guests with App check prior to actually embarkation, if they can’t legally ask.

wear 10 masks or present vaccine card? I’d show my card. 

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7 minutes ago, twangster said:

I will move on to a cruise ship ? 

That made me chuckle!  Really, I am laughing about that response!!  It's nice to add some sense of humor because its been a tough year!

So I guess you will give him a thumb ups if he allocates the money to the seaports?

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7 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

That made me chuckle!  Really, I am laughing about that response!!  It's nice to add some sense of humor because its been a tough year!

So I guess you will give him a thumb ups if he allocates the money to the seaports?

If it gets to the people who are out of work at the SeaPorts sure.  If its just so SeaPorts can have a pretty balance sheet I'd need to look into that more.

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12 minutes ago, RBRSKI said:

What if the CDC and Royal gave passengers options?

People with vaccine would follow xyz

People who choose not to get the vaccine would have to follow xyz.

That requires they do sample cruises.  Until we see what that really means I'll defer judgement.

The CDC is trying to motivate people to vaccinate but they can't flat out make it a requirement so they are putting that onto the cruise lines.  Requires vaccines and you get the easy road.  Don't require vaccines and here are the speedbumps you'll encounter on the hard road.  

If, and this is a very big if, cruise lines are actually Florida businesses and he intends to pursue this to the point of shutting down the industry in this state that puts me at odds with the Governor.  We don't need more government regulations, we need less regulation.  

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I'd like to see the options the CDC is giving the cruise lines to work within.  It could be more of the same we've seen before or this could be a meaningful way out of this mess.  My gut tells me the CDC would love the cruise lines to announce to the world vaccinate or stay home.  Once we see the choices the cruise lines really can make only then do we reach the next roadblock which could be the State of Florida, at least from the State's perspective.  They have stated clearly a number of times they think they have the power to dictate what cruises line can do.  Only time will tell if we reach the point where we find out.   

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ok I am not a lawyer but this is how I read it.

You can't ask for documentation of vaccination to allow entryway to Florida business, but that does not stop you from asking "Are you Vaccinated?". If they say yes, great, if not you are still within the letter of the law to prohibit entry. I mean people can lie but then what more can you do, their hands are tied now, unless them flying under another countries flag circumvents this? 

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I just don't get why he is pursuing it with the cruise ships that he says he is trying to help.

He has an easy out.  "Cruise ships are under federal health regulations.  It's the crazy CDC's fault".  

Instead he is going out of his way to create a confrontation.  

I'm not sure it's a wise use of the political capital it's going to cost him.  

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Gov. DeSantis suspends all remaining local COVID-19 orders

NO MORE local mask mandates anywhere in Florida 

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/05/03/gov-desantis-suspends-all-remaining-local-covid-19-orders/

The CDC, which has encouraged Americans to get vaccinated, recommends wearing masks in indoor public spaces because “the vaccination status of other people or whether they are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 is likely unknown.”

DeSantis said that sends a message that vaccines don’t work.

“Because if the vaccines worked, that would be your ticket to basically live normally and make decisions for yourself. That would be the message that actually would work with people,” DeSantis said. “So I think that they’ve sent a message to say, You know what get vaccinated, but it really ain’t gonna do anything for you.”
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

I didn't say it would or wouldnt, but I am far from the first person to wonder if the no vaccine requirement law would have an effect.

Section 2 of the EO he signed (which was the precursor to this law) prohibits businesses from requiring their customers to "provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business."

Given what we saw last week from CDC, it would seem the new law and the CDC's opportunity for mid-July cruises are diametrically opposed.

I'm not a legal or business scholar, so who knows.  But by the looks, it MIGHT have an impact.

I was just looking at twitter and the DCL Blog and apparently DeSantis stated private business can still require it when asked about Disney.  This might be something that allows Royal to enforce vaccines if that is what they want to do.  I am not an expert by any means.  That is what I read on twitterland, take it for what its worth I guess ?

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DeSantis is walking a fine line here and like others in this thread, I wonder if he is relying on a loophole or special exemption if it comes down to the state of Florida being the hold up. He is playing big government by dictating to business owners how to run their business on one hand while complaining about the federal government overreach. Business owners already have the right to refuse customers as long as it doesn’t violate discrimination laws just like some businesses in Florida still require customers to wear masks even though the state no longer mandate it. 
 

We already have vaccine requirements in the public sector, schools come to mind that can be waived with certain exceptions. Now, what I see is a HUGE difference is companies requiring an vaccine that is not fully approved by the FDA and we still have limited data on side effects, short and long term. And is it too much to ask to have a competent CDC??!! The Johnson and Johnson vaccine debacle has added and created more vaccine hesitancy and a chorus of “I told you so” from the anti-vaccine crowd. The government needs to accept their own responsibility in vaccine hesitancy before blaming the citizenry. I am fully vaccinated and I am no means an anti-vaxxer
 

Back to cruising. Royal is walking a fine line as well. They have to appease the CDC as well as keeping their customer base happy. I understand that as a business they have the right to determine terms for the services. However, and my bias will show now, I have fully paid for a July 17th cruise this summer and I have a 13 year old with some underlying medical considerations that even if the FDA approved vaccine for her age group, I don’t know if I would have her vaccinated right away. 
 

Royal, DeSantis and the CDC would all do well to show some common sense flexibility when creating and enforcing guidelines. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:

Gov. DeSantis suspends all remaining local COVID-19 orders

NO MORE local mask mandates anywhere in Florida 

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/05/03/gov-desantis-suspends-all-remaining-local-covid-19-orders/

The CDC, which has encouraged Americans to get vaccinated, recommends wearing masks in indoor public spaces because “the vaccination status of other people or whether they are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 is likely unknown.”

DeSantis said that sends a message that vaccines don’t work.

“Because if the vaccines worked, that would be your ticket to basically live normally and make decisions for yourself. That would be the message that actually would work with people,” DeSantis said. “So I think that they’ve sent a message to say, You know what get vaccinated, but it really ain’t gonna do anything for you.”
 

 

 

Interesting ... can individual business owners still require masks be worn in their business like shoes and shirts are required? 

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I understand the governors objection to a gov't creating vaccination passport, but is he considering the vaccine cards a travel passport?   They're just a shot record like those of the past.  Not seeing why  showing proof of vaccination that big a deal?  Don't schools require shot records for student enrollment?  Seems like the mandatory PCR testing for travel is just as intrusive from the health privacy issue.

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Reading SB 2006...

It refers to a business entity as defined in s. 768.38. 

SB 72 creates s. 768.38. Per s. 768.38 business entity has the same meaning as provided in s. 606.03.

Now for s. 606.03...

“Business entity” means any form of corporation, partnership, association, cooperative, joint venture, business trust, or sole proprietorship that conducts business in this state.

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I am pretty sure that if there is a loophole to be found the RCG lawyers will find it.

My first thought is that almost all bookings are done on-line or through a travel agent not in the state of Florida, and even they maybe working across state lines.  Interstate commerce is governed by federal law not by state law.  That is why it took a federal court (supreme court) ruling to force market place facilitators (MPF) like eBay and amazon to start collecting state sales tax for any state that required it.  Just my thoughts from a non-lawyer.

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16 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Reading SB 2006...

It refers to a business entity as defined in s. 768.38. 

SB 72 creates s. 768.38. Per s. 768.38 business entity has the same meaning as provided in s. 606.03.

Now for s. 606.03...

“Business entity” means any form of corporation, partnership, association, cooperative, joint venture, business trust, or sole proprietorship that conducts business in this state.

I went down that path.  i also looked over the state records of business corporations and found most Royal Caribbean entities are inactive although the corporate group is active.  Do all child corporations under the parent corporation qualify if the parent corporation does?  Each ship is it's own company but none are registered in Florida.  How does that work in terms of being a Florida business entity?  

If a foreign airline picks up passengers in Miami then flies back to South America is that considered doing business in Florida?

I gave up trying to figure it out.  Figure time will tell.  

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