State of Florida Sues CDC Over Cruise Shut Down

[JeffB]

I'm pretty sure that one of the updates qualified the shore agreements requirement by saying that a signed letter from a port authority or service provider that they won't negotiate contracts with a cruise line absolve the cruise line of meeting that requirement. This suggests to me that some ports may be unwilling to enter into contracts like this - makes perfect sense because they present potential for all kinds of problems. A hand shake to provide services worked fine in the past, no need to go all legal here. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, UNCFanatik said:

I desperately need a vacation and to be on a lounger on the deck with a cold drink in my hand!

I'd suggest booking Adventure, Jewel, or Vision this summer. You want certainty and desperate, and there it is.

[CGTLH]

8 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I'm pretty sure that one of the updates qualified the shore agreements requirement by saying that a signed letter from a port authority or service provider that they won't negotiate contracts with a cruise line absolve the cruise line of meeting that requirement. This suggests to me that some ports may be unwilling to enter into contracts like this - makes perfect sense because they present potential for all kinds of problems. A hand shake to provide services worked fine in the past, no need to go all legal here. 

Getting into the semantics of the FAQ wording here. I would think a cruise line has to get an approval from at least one local health authority. My reasoning is the use of the word "all" vs "any".

Using Port Canaveral, my logic is Port Canaveral entered into an agreement and now Florida Department of Health is also needing to sign off. If FL DOH didn't agree they could sign a statement declining and the CDC would accept only Port Canaveral's approval.

[LizzyBee23]

The ASTA filed their amicus brief and it makes for a good read. No idea who's site this is, but it can be found here:

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/

[dswallow]

8 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

The ASTA filed their amicus brief and it makes for a good read. No idea who's site this is, but it can be found here:

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/

'Tis mine. I keep a low profile, though. Just trying to share. 

[smokeybandit]

52 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

The ASTA filed their amicus brief and it makes for a good read. No idea who's site this is, but it can be found here:

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/

OK ASTA, do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to mediation.

[twangster]

18 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

OK ASTA, do not pass got, do not collect $200, go directly to mediation.

Vicki Freed did her weekly TA call from DC today with ASTA.  

[Jill]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/05/19/royal-caribbean-finalized-port-agreement-port-canaveral-so-it-can-start-test-cruises

Test cruises coming to Port Canaveral!  (hopefully) 

Well that would be mighty convenient for us. As in 2 hour drive convenient

[twangster]

7 minutes ago, Jill said:

Well that would be mighty convenient for us. As in 2 hour drive convenient

I just mailed my passport renewal off.  So much for test cruises...

[CGTLH]

Sounds like mediation will go nowhere fast...

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.55.0.pdf

JOINT MOTION TO BE EXCUSED FROM REQUIREMENT THAT PARTIES

WITH FULL SETTLEMENT AUTHORITY ATTEND MEDIATION

Plaintiff and Defendants respectfully request that they be excused from the requirement that parties with full settlement authority attend mediation.

---

Here, it is not practicable for the parties to bring representatives with full settlement authority. The parties anticipate that counsel will attend the mediation, with the expectation that counsel are knowledgeable about the case and have authority to negotiate in good faith with the intention of recommending a settlement if appropriate to the responsible Government officials. If a settlement in principle is reached, additional formal approvals by appropriate officials will be needed for all parties.

[twangster]

41 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Sounds like mediation will go nowhere fast...

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.55.0.pdf

JOINT MOTION TO BE EXCUSED FROM REQUIREMENT THAT PARTIES

WITH FULL SETTLEMENT AUTHORITY ATTEND MEDIATION

Plaintiff and Defendants respectfully request that they be excused from the requirement that parties with full settlement authority attend mediation.

---

Here, it is not practicable for the parties to bring representatives with full settlement authority. The parties anticipate that counsel will attend the mediation, with the expectation that counsel are knowledgeable about the case and have authority to negotiate in good faith with the intention of recommending a settlement if appropriate to the responsible Government officials. If a settlement in principle is reached, additional formal approvals by appropriate officials will be needed for all parties.

Are government lawyers FTE or contracted and paid by the hour?

Sounds like an exercise of maximizing billable hours. 

"Sorry judge, negotiations are tense, this could take another month!"

[Jill]

1 hour ago, twangster said:

I just mailed my passport renewal off.  So much for test cruises...

We did that right after our October 2020 was cancelled. Took roughly 3 months. Hope yours is a faster turnaround 

[dswallow]

Florida has filed their reply to the government's memorandum of opposition to Florida's Motion for Preliminary Injunction.

56_047123018706_FloridasReplyInSupportOfMotion.pdf (2150.com)

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[dswallow]

Florida has filed their reply to the government's memorandum of opposition to Florida's Motion for Preliminary Injunction.

56_047123018706_FloridasReplyInSupportOfMotion.pdf (2150.com)

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[twangster]

Still ticked at the judge for adding to the problem and delaying a possible injunction further by introducing unnecessary mediation.   

The CSO is highly complex which makes it unworkable.  It would take years to mediate that into a workable solution.  The CSO needs to be removed now. 

There is no middle ground that will allow ships to sail under a mediated CSO any time soon.

[Jill]

1 hour ago, dswallow said:

Florida has filed their reply to the government's memorandum of opposition to Florida's Motion for Preliminary Injunction.

56_047123018706_FloridasReplyInSupportOfMotion.pdf (2150.com)

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

Seems like nothing more than a giant game of chess. 

[deep1]

Yes the judge did kick the can down the road... No he didn't man up... He passed it on... Ok there's the one way to look at it. Then we have the CDC itself softening its tone all week. Then look at Celebrity and their announcements... Folks! I have calloused my fingers on this keyboard saying over and over that we all need to take deep breaths cause what we see today will likely change before we go to bed and again before we wake. Its fluid... Morphing and changing by the minute. We have this mediation thing cooking . The mediation is in place regarding the immediate relief sought. Its not the main case itself. That is formidable enough to keep the CDC softening its tone which it has been doing a few times a week recently. We have the senate about (hopefully) to allow Alaska runs with no Canada stop. I'm seeing the lines starting to up their game , readying their machines, and in general I have a cautious optimistic outlook... 

Mediation is a common out for judges but frequently is quick and can result in both sides being happy.  The negativity I see here is staggering and no real reason for it. I "could" get run over by a train or eaten by a lion but its not likely. Try looking at the positive side for a change... 

 

[JeffB]

27 minutes ago, twangster said:

Still ticked at the judge for adding to the problem and delaying a possible injunction further by introducing unnecessary mediation.   

The CSO is highly complex which makes it unworkable.  It would take years to mediate that into a workable solution.  The CSO needs to be removed now. 

There is no middle ground that will allow ships to sail under a mediated CSO any time soon.

Yet the cruise lines are pressing ahead in what appears to me to be an acceptance that they will have to comply with all or part of it. That's because in all likelihood their legal teams have told them the CSO is lawful. None of the lines has alleged it is not lawful in any forum. Judge Merryday did not rule it was unlawful. People can be "ticked" that he punted to mediation but there's probably good reasons why he did that ...... one of them being the thing is lawful as awful and burdensome as it si

FL is an exception and the grounds for their claim does not question CDC's legal authority to regulate. It questions the administrative process and procedures the CDC failed to follow in implementing the NSO and CSO. The ATSA's Amicus makes a case that the CDC could have imposed fewer, less onerous regulations, achieved the same PH benefits and not nearly bankrupted the cruise lines.

It may appear to be "unworkable" to some, it does not appear to be for the cruise lines, Delrio's bitch about it notwithstanding. Lines that take a positive view of it and make an effort are more likely to start revenue sailings in July from US ports than lines that dig in their heels.

I hear a lot of huffing and puffing about the CSO from multiple sources. I have not heard a credible legally based argument that invalidates it in its entirety. I don't care how stupid, inconsistent and contradictory it is. If it's lawful, and I think most of it is, none of that matters.  It's gas bag, echo chamber, key stroke wasting hot air. The only part that might be on shaky legal grounds are the elements that the CDC is imposing regulations past the waters edge (e.g., the shore based service providers). Even that may be legal in the broadest application of the CDC's role to regulate sanitation and safety aboard commercial vessels sailing in US waters/porting in US ports.

People who take the position that the CSO is unlawful can do better than that to support their positions.  

[twangster]

On a positive note once we get past mediation and the judge grants the injunction we could all be sailing in July.

[JennieUnderwood]

Not sure if this was posted yet, but on today's TA webinar - Vicki Freed said we should have restart information on next week's call (Wednesday).... fingers crossed!

[twangster]

13 minutes ago, JeffB said:

People who take the position that the CSO is unlawful can do better than that to support their positions. 

What the state said if you follow to their reply offered in this post:

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/boards/index.php?/topic/23217-florida-and-cdc-going-to-mediation/&do=findComment&comment=249163

 

[TXcruzer]

1 hour ago, Jill said:

Seems like nothing more than a giant game of chess. 

And we, the consumer, are all pawns!

[dswallow]

The Government filed a Memorandum in opposition to Motion to Intervene by State of Texas.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57_047023018903_MemorandumOfLawInOppositionToTexas.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57-1_047123018904_ExhibitGalveston.pdf

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[smokeybandit]

7 minutes ago, dswallow said:

The Government filed a Memorandum in opposition to Motion to Intervene by State of Texas.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57_047023018903_MemorandumOfLawInOppositionToTexas.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57-1_047123018904_ExhibitGalveston.pdf

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

Translation, "let's stall, stall stall"

[dswallow]

The Government filed a Memorandum in opposition to Motion to Intervene by State of Texas.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57_047023018903_MemorandumOfLawInOppositionToTexas.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57-1_047123018904_ExhibitGalveston.pdf

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[Ogilthorpe]

2 hours ago, Jill said:

Seems like nothing more than a giant game of chess. 

I believe that gives them too much credit. A chess match would suggest logic, intelligence and, perhaps, a hint of sofistication. All this would be better characterized as a game of chicken. (I would have said "P****ng Contest" but I respect and appreciate that @Matt wants us to maintain a certain level of decorum in our posts)

[Loops]

Once we get past the frivolous legal gymnastics, does anyone believe that the CDC has any intention to “mediate” in good faith?  Many of the demands they are making through the CSO might have been viewed by some as legitimate at the peak of the pandemic but are surely nonsensical overreach based on the facts on the ground today.

[CGTLH]

33 minutes ago, Loops said:

Once we get passed the frivolous legal gymnastics, does anyone believe that the CDC has any intention to “mediate” in good faith?  Many of the demands they are making through the CSO might have been viewed by some as legitimate at the peak of the pandemic but are surely nonsensical overreach based on the facts on the ground today.

I could see the CDC willing to negotiate some of the terms for technical operations on-board. However I really feel they would dig their heels in over the port/health agreements (2A). The still running fear for the CDC is an outbreak on a ship and no ports willing to let the ship dock and unload passengers.

[Phoenix]

Well, with all this motion practice, seems as July cruises might not see the day of light. Luckily, the European Union agreed to open up yesterday. Venice, here I come!!!

[PG Cruiser]

39 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Venice, here I come!!!

Isn't Venice limiting the number of tourists in the area?

[LovetoCruise87]

From the CDC:

Like Florida, Texas cannot rely on alleged economic injury to its residents to establish standing, and has not met its burden to establish a cognizable injury to the State itself, let alone one fairly traceable to the challenged actions

 

What the?!?! The CDC is completely blind if it cannot see the almost 200,000 jobs lost and the billions of dollars lost due to the NSO that they put in place. While everyone at the CDC continues to earn their living, thousands that rely on the cruise industry continue to suffer.

I am very aggravated with the CDC

[twangster]

7 minutes ago, LovetoCruise87 said:

From the CDC:

Like Florida, Texas cannot rely on alleged economic injury to its residents to establish standing, and has not met its burden to establish a cognizable injury to the State itself, let alone one fairly traceable to the challenged actions

 

What the?!?! The CDC is completely blind if it cannot see the almost 200,000 jobs lost and the billions of dollars lost due to the NSO that they put in place. While everyone at the CDC continues to earn their living, thousands that rely on the cruise industry continue to suffer.

I am very aggravated with the CDC

You are talking about an agency that, if it had the power, would have locked all of us in our homes from the start and still through today regardless of what that would have done to us.  

[LovetoCruise87]

10 minutes ago, twangster said:

You are talking about an agency that, if it had the power, would have locked all of us in our homes from the start and still through today regardless of what that would have done to us.  

Very true

[twangster]

The CDC is programmed with a singular focus and it is blind to everything else. Stop the virus.  Period.

Remember the movie WarGames?

The computer followed its programming to defend America but nearly wiped out the world.  

That sums up the CDC.

The CDC has its head down and is deeply focused on the virus.  They aren't stopping to look up to see where they are going or the effect of their actions.  

[0_0]

12 minutes ago, twangster said:

You are talking about an agency that, if it had the power, would have locked all of us in our homes from the start and still through today regardless of what that would have done to us.  

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin (1755)

[smokeybandit]

10 hours ago, dswallow said:

The Government filed a Memorandum in opposition to Motion to Intervene by State of Texas.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57_047023018903_MemorandumOfLawInOppositionToTexas.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/57-1_047123018904_ExhibitGalveston.pdf

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

This is all you need to know about the CDC's interest in getting cruising started again

 

[twangster]

What the CDC really needs to do (but won't) is to place a team of employees in a role playing exercise.   Think like a cruise line.  Be a cruise line.

"Let's role play.  You are a cruise line.  Try to fulfil the CSO.  Is that even possible?"   

If they took a day to try this exercise they'd see how silly and impossible they are being.

[CGTLH]

16 minutes ago, twangster said:

What the CDC really needs to do (but won't) is to place a team of employees in a role playing exercise.   Think like a cruise line.  Be a cruise line.

"Let's role play.  You are a cruise line.  Try to fulfil the CSO.  Is that even possible?"   

If they took a day to try this exercise they'd see how silly and impossible they are being.

Exercise Team: Attempt to get port/health agreements per 2A... wait months to get agreements.

Result: Goal achieved, exercise successful.

Spend three months writing After Action report and an additional three months reviewing After Action report before allowing further exercises.

[Phoenix]

58 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

Isn't Venice limiting the number of tourists in the area?

I believe you have to apply for some kind of permission or visa. The jist of the whole agreement will be announced sometime next week. I hope it doesn't turn into a hurdle with lots of obstacles.

[LovetoCruise87]

26 minutes ago, twangster said:

The CDC is programmed with a singular focus and it is blind to everything else. Stop the virus.  Period.

Remember the movie WarGames?

The computer followed its programming to defend America but nearly wiped out the world.  

That sums up the CDC.

The CDC has its head down and is deeply focused on the virus.  They aren't stopping to look up to see where they are going or the effect of their actions.  

They can't see the forest for the trees