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State of Florida Sues CDC Over Cruise Shut Down


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1 hour ago, deep1 said:

Murphy is a case study in power tripping over blown ego. Needs to be exported to Antarctica . The ports however are Pretty much federal and in a "place of their own". Port Authority is multi state. Then the Fed then its highly unionized which even the toughest of the politicians yield to up here... As anti everything opening as he is he may not have the muscle to keep the port closed... 

 

 

I swear if I had a dollar for everybody complaining about Murphy, especially from Florida. ?

He's fine. And doing well, thank you.

As for the port, nobody's been popping off claiming it's closed or won't open or whatever. They've simply been patiently awaiting cruise ships being able to sail, communicating with those involved as needed, and mostly not turning themselves into media whores.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, dswallow said:

I swear if I had a dollar for everybody complaining about Murphy, especially from Florida. ?

He's fine. And doing well, thank you.

As for the port, nobody's been popping off claiming it's closed or won't open or whatever. They've simply been patiently awaiting cruise ships being able to sail, communicating with those involved as needed, and mostly not turning themselves into media whores.

I'm sitting two miles from his house across the Navesink River, in Rumson... I spent most of my life as a Jersey resident and have never seen a bigger ego maniacal power tripper than he. He moved the goal posts on the "science" more times than you could count and put thousands of small businesses  and restaurants  out of business (cause he could). With only four people on Respirator last August he still refused to open. Ignores the CDC direction on anything that would loosen his iron grip. His ineptitude has resulted in a per capita death rate higher than any other state  Enough of a loose cannon that I uprooted and  now call Florida my home... Thank You... 

As I mentioned above the port is pretty well separate from the "state" and away from his grubby paws enough that opening should be orderly and pretty much on time... 

On the Memorandum thats CDC trying to reduce the heat coming its way. All law cases are a series of legal "motions"  most of which move slowly if at all. 

 

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As scheduled a "Settlement Conference" was held yesterday, May 27th via Zoom. According to the docket item posted today, only three people were in attendance besides the Judge and the court recorder. It went on for 11h!!! and the conference will reconvene on June 1st. 

I suspect there is a lot of technical issues to get through if the docket from the time Merryday  sent it to mediation and today is any indicator of that. Bunch of motions filed asking for this and that to be included followed by motions as to why it shouldn't ..... mostly involving the ATSA document, which IMO, is really good. So, I suspect a lot of the discussion involved agreement or disagreement, acceptance or rejection on all of this.

After I thoroughly read the Federal Register which goes back and lays out the facts that supported CDC's lawful duty to develop and implement the CSO, I thought how the CDC went about doing it was well supported, seemed completely lawful. The Register laid out the options the CDC considered. Not a lot different from my understanding of those options but it did seem to make sense. IOW, they did consider options, which is one of the claims that they did not in the ATSA Amicus filing.

I don't think mediation will produce a result. I think it's more likely that both sides will harden thier postions both beleiving they are going to prevail, kick it back to Merryday and let him rule. In that case I think, based on what I read yesterday, that FL will lose. JMO, YMMV.  

I'd add as I commented yesterday that Desantis can't claim his FL anti-vaccination passport rule trumps whatever the CDC says (Federal Law) when his law suit v. HHS/CDC says the opposite. 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.66.0_1.pdf

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45 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I don't think mediation will produce a result. I think it's more likely that both sides will harden thier postions both beleiving they are going to prevail, kick it back to Merryday and let him rule. In that case I think, based on what I read yesterday, that FL will lose. JMO, YMMV.  

I tend to agree.  Plus, it is my opinion Florida's lawsuit was conceived in a time when the CDC was basically doing nothing to get cruise ships going.

We clearly see that is not the case now. Granted, Florida believes the entire CSO is without a point, but I feel like the cruise industry has moved on from that point (although I'm sure they wouldn't mind if CSO disappeared).

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8 hours ago, JeffB said:

I don't think mediation will produce a result. I think it's more likely that both sides will harden thier postions both beleiving they are going to prevail, kick it back to Merryday and let him rule. In that case I think, based on what I read yesterday, that FL will lose. JMO, YMMV.  

I'd add as I commented yesterday that Desantis can't claim his FL anti-vaccination passport rule trumps whatever the CDC says (Federal Law) when his law suit v. HHS/CDC says the opposite. 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.66.0_1.pdf

The judge originally said he wanted an answer by June 1 unless that date has changed. If mediation doesn't work, the judge can make a decision. I'm not a lawyer and don't think a judge can change state law but a maritime layer came out and said Florida is violating the Commerce Clause which gives Congress primary authority to regulate interstate and international commerce and limits a state's ability to interfere in such activity

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1 hour ago, CruisingSteve said:

The judge originally said he wanted an answer by June 1 unless that date has changed. If mediation doesn't work, the judge can make a decision. I'm not a lawyer and don't think a judge can change state law but a maritime layer came out and said Florida is violating the Commerce Clause which gives Congress primary authority to regulate interstate and international commerce and limits a state's ability to interfere in such activity

I'm gonna have a big laugh if in general this argument holds up and the cruise lines have to sue Florida over the vaccine-proof ban, and get a preliminary injunction granted quickly, too.

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14 hours ago, dswallow said:

I'm gonna have a big laugh if in general this argument holds up and the cruise lines have to sue Florida over the vaccine-proof ban, and get a preliminary injunction granted quickly, too.

If the injunction does play out and cdc order nullified, that would affect the need for vaccination... I'm still curious what authority Florida  would have within the ports them selves...  As a captain I have to carry two sets of federal credentials to operate in a port. Nothing state related.  

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17 hours ago, dswallow said:

I'm gonna have a big laugh if in general this argument holds up and the cruise lines have to sue Florida over the vaccine-proof ban, and get a preliminary injunction granted quickly, too.

I had to read this post and your response @dswallowa couple times. There's a lot going on in the FL lawsuit v. HHS/CDC and FL's Proof of Vaccination ban for businesses operating in FL.

I've raised the issue that Desantis can't very well back away from including cruise lines in "businesses operating in FL" in his poof of vaccination ban and at the same time argue in the Federal court hearing the FL suit that the CDC's CSO imposes onerous and costly regulations that are preventing cruise lines from sailing from FL ports and the attendant economic harm this over-reach has done to FL. His attorneys will get laughed out of Merryday's court room. That's one issue.

The second issue involves cruise lines being prevented from operating from FL ports and against the law in FL but, seemingly, that FL law being in violation of existing Federal law and how this will be resolved. Specifically to allow Celebrity for sure and possibly other lines to sail in July after the FL law comes into affect. I've already opined that the FL anti proof of vaccination law would not survive a court challenge. The question remains, will it come to that?

I think there's enough chatter that there will be a compromise reached before July 1st. IMO, this is the first really dumb thing Ron Desantis has done during the pandemic. He may be betting that his constituency, not knowing anything about cruising except the Diamond Princess debacle, will see Desantis as standing up against cruise lines and their disease breeding cruise ships and forget or not understand how incredibly stupid including cruise lines in his anti proof of vaccine law that cost jobs and money in and for FL. I dunno. Could have easily exempted cruise lines and made everyone happy by citing the Commerce laws that prevent states from interfering with legitimate commercial activity in and around US ports.

I think I've got these two issues right. It can be confusing.

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3 hours ago, deep1 said:

If the injunction does play out and cdc order nullified, that would affect the need for vaccination... I'm still curious what authority Florida  would have within the ports them selves...  As a captain I have to carry two sets of federal credentials to operate in a port. Nothing state related.  

First, there is no federal mandate for vaccination nor is the state of FL (or any other state to my knowledge), mandating them. Quite the opposite. On the federal level (CDC), they are recommended. For those that don't get vaccinated for any reason - personal choice or medical - and want to board a cruise ship operating from a US port, then the CSO comes into play REQUIRING cruise ships sailing with a mix of vaxxed and unvaxxed passengers to implement a litany of no-fun inducing requirements.

Two other important points: First, if a business mandates anything to enter/ receive service, it must accommodate "disability" (narrowly defined and excludes religious reasons) and not be discrimnatory in the usual sense of that word. Courts have found that there are many ways outside of actually letting the "disabled" person in - accommodating them - that do not involve letting them in, e.g., in the case of the cruise industry offering a refund or another sailing further down the road.

Second, is the recognition that it is not unlawful for cruise lines or any other private business to mandate vaccinations to sail despite all the nonsense floating around social media platforms (not here) that say it is unlawful for businesses to require proof of vaccination to enter/receive services. Most legal opinions I've read on this hot-button issue say mandating anything by federal or state agencies authorized to do so and private businesses during a public health emergency would uphold the right to require reasonable mitigation measures. Can states then turn around and ban such measures? I don't think so especially in the case of the FL law that does just that.

As a matter of law, it is understood that federal authority to regulate safety and sanitation of all ships entering US ports ends at the water's edge ..... unless the port is federally operated port. Most US ports aren't that and activities from the water's edge inland are regulated by the state and/or port authorities. That is true of all 5 of FL's main ports where cruise ships operate from.

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4 hours ago, JeffB said:

First, there is no federal mandate for vaccination nor is the state of FL (or any other state to my knowledge), mandating them. Quite the opposite. On the federal level (CDC), they are recommended. For those that don't get vaccinated for any reason - personal choice or medical - and want to board a cruise ship operating from a US port, then the CSO comes into play REQUIRING cruise ships sailing with a mix of vaxxed and unvaxxed passengers to implement a litany of no-fun inducing requirements.

Two other important points: First, if a business mandates anything to enter/ receive service, it must accommodate "disability" (narrowly defined and excludes religious reasons) and not be discrimnatory in the usual sense of that word. Courts have found that there are many ways outside of actually letting the "disabled" person in - accommodating them - that do not involve letting them in, e.g., in the case of the cruise industry offering a refund or another sailing further down the road.

Second, is the recognition that it is not unlawful for cruise lines or any other private business to mandate vaccinations to sail despite all the nonsense floating around social media platforms (not here) that say it is unlawful for businesses to require proof of vaccination to enter/receive services. Most legal opinions I've read on this hot-button issue say mandating anything by federal or state agencies authorized to do so and private businesses during a public health emergency would uphold the right to require reasonable mitigation measures. Can states then turn around and ban such measures? I don't think so especially in the case of the FL law that does just that.

As a matter of law, it is understood that federal authority to regulate safety and sanitation of all ships entering US ports ends at the water's edge ..... unless the port is federally operated port. Most US ports aren't that and activities from the water's edge inland are regulated by the state and/or port authorities. That is true of all 5 of FL's main ports where cruise ships operate from.

My point is that the state should have no say over what happens in that port or a business not BASED in Florida. AND Many ARE FED operated!!! I know for certain Miami and Lauderdale are. Fed rule past the gate not just the water which is USCG governed. The res of the port past the gates is Fed as well. Thats why I have to carry two sets of Fed ID  as a captain when in those ports.  I don't operate Commercially from Canaveral so I'm not sure there but lokely is as well. Port Liberty is run by fed and then joint state entity "Port authority" shared by NY and NJ.  Again I have to have both sets of FED ID to operate there...  Right now 'm in Jersey. The state just lifted the mask regs but individual stores have the right to request that masks be worn and some still are. I would  think RCL being not Florida based Business would have that same prerogative? It seems that people keep switching positions. That Bailey intends to run without Vaccine mandate (Celebrity is tho) and thats why the test run? 

 

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12 hours ago, deep1 said:

My point is that the state should have no say over what happens in that port or a business not BASED in Florida.

Correct. 

12 hours ago, deep1 said:

AND Many ARE FED operated!!! I know for certain Miami and Lauderdale are. Fed rule past the gate not just the water which is USCG governed. The res of the port past the gates is Fed as well.

It is my understanding that federal jurisdiction in a port that has an established port authority, commission or director who answers to the county within which the port is located (e.g., Broward for PEV and Miami Dade for POM, Tampa, Jacksonville and Canaveral), overlaps  the authority of the governing source. To the extent that federal law exists to do that, e.g., trucking, warehousing, OSHA, the feds have jurisdiction. But, basically, the ports are run by the port authority, commission or director either elected through or designated by the county. 

I think we we would agree that the feds can tell employees of PEV for example that when they're in a warehouse OSHA standards apply, driving a truck within the port, federal regs for operation of that truck apply, but the port authority basically runs the place and the feds have no say in how that is done.

I don't think it is clear ..... yet, because this is one of claims in the FL lawsuit v. HHS/CDC whether the CSO mandates that involve embarkation and debarkation protocols and procedures inside the cruise terminal are legal. I believe this sort of regulation is correctly assigned to the port authority. commission or director when one exists.    

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This is a great article in this mornings Sun Sentinel (Paywalled) that does a good job of explaining the positions of the two sides involving the Desantis Vaccine Passport ban. One of the legal comments is from Jim Welker - well known around here as an anti-cruise quack. The last few paragraphs in the article point out the political ramifications for Desantis.

It seems resolution between Desantis and Celebrity could rest on the outcome of mediation now underway to settle the FL lawsuit against HHS/CDC:

Cruise lines prepare to sail, but DeSantis clash looms By Ron Hurtibise South Florida Sun Sentinel
The restart of cruising in Florida could have been smooth sailing.


After a suspension lasting more than a year, all of the major cruise lines could have been gearing up for voyages out of Florida ports this summer with 95% vaccinated passengers and crew.


Ship crew members, shuttle drivers, baggage handlers, food service providers, gift shop owners and thousands of others who depend on the cruise industry to put food on their tables could have headed into the Memorial Day weekend confident they’d soon be going back to work.


Celebrity Cruises could have been preparing for a voyage out of Fort Lauderdale without having to worry that Florida’s governor will fine the company for violating his “vaccine passport” ban or use his authority to prevent passengers from boarding.


Instead, uncertainty reigns, thanks to DeSantis’ decision to file a lawsuit challenging the CDC’s authority to dictate how and whether cruise ships can operate in the state. The two sides have been ordered into mediation, but legal experts say the dispute could linger long past the summer.


Fort Lauderdale could become a flashpoint in the conflict as early as next month. Just one cruise line — Royal Caribbean Group-owned Celebrity Cruises — has announced that it’s been approved by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to depart Port Everglades in June. The ship would be the first to sail from the Broward County port since March 2020.


Travel agents and other industry professionals remain hopeful. They say they’re confident compromise can be reached in a way that allows everyone to claim victory. The cruise industry is too important to Florida’s economy, they say, for DeSantis to indefinitely block what they view as the most-obvious and sensible path to safely resuming operations.

How did we get here?


It’s been a busy couple of months. Back in April, DeSantis stood with cruise industry leaders who were calling on the CDC to provide clear guidelines to allow cruising to resume from the state by summer. The CDC was not communicating with the cruise lines, they said, leaving them confused and in limbo, unable to plan their next moves.But when the CDC finally responded by telling cruise lines they could skip required “test cruises” and get back to business by ensuring vaccination of 95% of passengers and crew members, DeSantis balked.


Such a requirement would violate his executive order, later enacted into state law, barring businesses from requiring that their customers be vaccinated, DeSantis said. The governor’s refusal to exempt cruise lines from his “vaccine passport” ban blocked the cruise industry’s clearest and fastest path back to operation .So instead of ordering provisions for midnight buffets, cruise lines are announcing diverging paths forward.


Royal Caribbean Group seems to be hedging its bets by announcing plans for two of its brands to move forward under separate paths offered by the CDC. Under a plan outlined on May 24 for its Royal Caribbean International brand, its 3,934-passenger Freedom of the Seas will embark upon a test cruise, or simulated cruise, for two nights out of Port Miami on June 20 with volunteer passengers. Specific activities have not been announced, but CDC guidelines call for such voyages to demonstrate effectiveness of cruise lines’ new procedures for getting passengers on and off ships, testing passengers for symptoms, safe in-cabin quarantining of symptomatic passengers, as well as food service, recreational activities and port calls.


Developed prior to vaccine availability, cruises operated under these procedures won’t require proof of vaccination and therefore won’t violate DeSantis’ “vaccine passport” ban. But guests will be required to wear masks and practice social distancing in most areas outside their staterooms. On May 26, Royal Caribbean Group’s luxury brand, Celebrity Cruises, announced its plan, cleared by the CDC, to sail from Port Everglades on June 26 with fully vaccinated passengers. Under revised CDC guidance for sailings with at least 95% of passengers and crew vaccinated, masks won’t be required and distancing requirements will be relaxed.


Threats of fines


DeSantis’ office immediately declared the plan would violate state law. Companies would be subject to a $5,000 fine for every passenger ordered to show proof of vaccination, a spokesperson said. DeSantis press secretary Christina Pushaw blamed the CDC, saying it “has no legal authority to set any sort of requirements to cruise.” Echoing the state’s legal argument, she added, “The CDC went on record admitting that the federal government chose not to make a legal requirement for vaccine passports. Now they provide coercive ‘guidance’ In the absence of any federal law or congressional authorization. In short, the CDC is pushing cruise ships to violate Florida law, in order to comply with CDC ‘guidance’ that is not legally binding.”


A Royal Caribbean Group spokeswoman characterized the diverging approaches to its two brands’ resumption plans as tailored to different types of passengers. While Celebrity Cruises is a luxury brand that attracts adults who are more likely to be vaccinated, Royal Caribbean International ships typically sail with a larger percentage of children and would be less likely to meet the 95% vaccination threshold required to avoid test cruises, said Tracy Quann, global chief communications officer for the parent company.


Then there’s Norwegian Cruise Line, which had to back off plans announced in April to resume its cruises from Florida on July 4 with 100% vaccinations. In a shareholder meeting in early May, CEO Frank Del Rio reiterated the company’s commitment to sailing with fully vaccinated ships and threatened to move Florida-based ships to other states or ports in the Caribbean if DeSantis refuses to relax his vaccine passport ban.
“Everyone wants to operate in Florida,” he said. “It’s a very lucrative market. It’s a close drive market. But it’s an issue. We can’t ignore it. We hope everyone is pushing in the same direction. We want to resume cruising in the safest possible manner.”


Staying above the fray, Carnival Corp. has announced a “possible restart plan” to resume sailing sometime in July from PortMiami and Galveston, Texas, but has not revealed whether it will require passengers on those voyages to be vaccinated as will be required on Alaska cruises offered by three Carnival Corp. brands beginning in July.
“We have not made a decision company-wide concerning mandating vaccinations at this point,” Carnival Corp. spokesman Roger Frizzell said. He added that simulated cruises are planned in coordination with the CDC, though the company has not publicly announced specific dates, ships or itineraries.


Frizzell suggested that the world’s largest cruise company has the flexibility to please more than one master.
“We are currently offering different options on our initial sailings for each of the different ships tied to our nine brands, each evolving its protocol over time with the latest advancements in science and medicine, as well as updates in regulations,” he said. “For now, we continue to work closely with the CDC, our medical and science experts and our port cities as well as the destinations we visit.”


Is compromise possible?


Travel industry officials say they are hopeful that compromise can be reached either in the mediation sessions between the state and the CDC or in talks between cruise lines and the state. “It’s clear all parties want to work together to get cruising going again from the U.S.,” said Brad Tolkin, co-chairman and CEO of travel agency World Travel Holdings, based in Wilmington, Massachusetts, with an office in Fort Lauderdale. “The recent developments have been incredibly encouraging and there is every reason to believe that common ground will be found to allow for cruise lines to operate.”
Celebrity Cruises vice president Dondra Ritzenhaler told travel agents last week that Celebrity was talking with DeSantis and top officials of Carnival Corp. and Norwegian Cruise Line and was close to announcing a solution that would allow cruise ships to proceed with vaccination requirements, according to an article posted by CruiseCritic.com, a consumer-focused travel website.


“We’re ironing out a statement that indicates how cruising will be different from the rest of the state,” Ritzenhaler was quoted as saying. “What we’re working through is how we word it to where people in Florida will not have to show vaccination proof to go to Walmart and Target, but how cruising is different and what the CDC is requiring.”


No backing down


But DeSantis spokeswoman Pushaw on Thursday said it would be up to the cruise lines to develop solutions that don’t include vaccination requirements. “The ban on vaccine passports is not going to be lifted,” she said, “but in general, the law doesn’t stop private companies from taking other measures to protect against COVID-19.”
Legal experts voiced differing views on how the impasse would be resolved. Dawn Meyers, partner and team manager of law firm Berger Singerman’s government and regulatory team, said she finds it difficult to imagine a workable solution emerging if DeSantis refuses to compromise on his opposition to vaccine requirements.


“I’m not sure where the mediated middle ground could be,” Meyers said. “Could the cruise lines, for example, let unvaccinated passengers on board but limit their access to certain activities and/or parts of the ships?”
Chris Gray Faust, CruiseCritic.com’s managing editor, said CDC guidelines allow ships that sail with a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated guests to set aside areas only accessible to vaccinated passengers “similar to what we’re seeing at larger venues such as sports arenas.”


Jim Walker, a Miami-based maritime law attorney, said that while the federal court would likely find that the CDC has authority over cruise ships’ health and sanitation issues, cruise industry leaders will persuade DeSantis to approve a “carve out” that will enable cruise lines to ask passengers about their vaccination status.
He says fortunes of DeSantis and the cruise lines are too closely tied to imagine DeSantis actually issuing fines or cruise lines suing the state.


Noting that Norwegian CEO Del Rio is a close political supporter of DeSantis, Walker said, “I see a resolution where the cruise lines make certain that their guests are vaccinated without incident and the ships sail from Florida ports with Del Rio and DeSantis both claiming victory.” DeSantis is not going to compromise in his fight against the CDC or his opposition to cruise lines’ vaccination requirements, says Bob Jarvis, a Nova Southeastern University law professor whose areas of interest include admiralty and maritime law.


DeSantis, Jarvis said, is counting on Donald Trump’s political base to boost his prospects as a 2024 presidential candidate and can claim victory whether the CDC ultimately prevails in the lawsuit or backs down as part of a mediated settlement. “If he wins, he can say to his base, ‘I stared down the federal government.’ If he loses and the lawsuit goes on [through appeal] and the cruise lines don’t get to sail with vaccinated passengers, he gets to say, ‘This is another example of the federal government running amok and you have to vote for me as president because I would never have allowed the CDC to do what it did.’ So he can’t lose.”


DeSantis won’t hesitate to send state troopers to Port Everglades to block passengers from boarding their Celebrity Cruises ship next month, Jarvis said. “I think he would love it. What a tremendous photo opportunity to show he’s committed to an open economy and will not bend.” DeSantis spokeswoman Pushaw did not respond when asked if DeSantis would prevent passengers from boarding ships that require proof of vaccinations. 


Ron Hurtibise covers consumer issues, insurance, travel and many other business matters. He can be reached at [email protected] or 954-356-4071

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Curious if a non-US port on a ship's itinerary required a passenger record of vaccination status to stop,  and the line uses the port requirement to flow the requirement to its embarkation requirement.  Its no longer the line's requirement, but a requirement from a non-US gov't.  State could say, remove from itinerary if you want to sail from here (probably challengeable).  More hypothetical non-sense.

 

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1 hour ago, JeffB said:


DeSantis won’t hesitate to send state troopers to Port Everglades to block passengers from boarding their Celebrity Cruises ship next month, Jarvis said. “I think he would love it. What a tremendous photo opportunity to show he’s committed to an open economy and will not bend.” DeSantis spokeswoman Pushaw did not respond when asked if DeSantis would prevent passengers from boarding ships that require proof of vaccinations. 

 

The Sun Sentinal may be the worst newspaper in America.  The FL law doesn't even allow for this and it is wrong for them to suggest that he "won't hesitate to send in troopers". The most that Desantis can do is fine Celebrity $5000 per occurance.

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18 minutes ago, cruisellama said:

Curious if a non-US port on a ship's itinerary required a passenger record of vaccination status to stop,  and the line uses the port requirement to flow the requirement to its embarkation requirement.  Its no longer the line's requirement, but a requirement from a non-US gov't.  State could say, remove from itinerary if you want to sail from here (probably challengeable).  More hypothetical non-sense.

 

I'd think so. However I don't think any country right now has a "vaccinated only" visitation policy.

Using the Bahamas as an example, a requirement for boarding could be having a valid health visa. However, the Bahamas could be a stop the last day on a seven day sailing. For the health visa a PCR test would need to be taken 5 days before visiting or submit being vaccinated.

In this case you'd be denied boarding for not having a health visa. Business at this point wouldn't be asking for proof of vaccination rather a valid health visa. Same thing as being denied boarding on a fight for not having a health visa.

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20 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

I'd think so. However I don't think any country right now has a "vaccinated only" visitation policy.

Using the Bahamas as an example, a requirement for boarding could be having a valid health visa. However, the Bahamas could be a stop the last day on a seven day sailing. For the health visa a PCR test would need to be taken 5 days before visiting or submit being vaccinated.

In this case you'd be denied boarding for not having a health visa. Business at this point wouldn't be asking for proof of vaccination rather a valid health visa. Same thing as being denied boarding on a fight for not having a health visa.

Exactly I don't see how cruise ships are any different from airlines. 

Take for example American Airlines and El Al Airlines, both of these airlines beginning in June will offer nonstop flights between Miami and Tel Aviv.  Israel requires all inbound passengers from the US be fully vaccinated and it is the responsibility of each airline to check each individuals vaccination status before they board their flight to Tel Aviv.  Although the federal government is responsible for screening all passengers, local government (police) is responsible for securing terminals.  For example whenever a fight breaks out in a terminal it is local police that respond, not federal police. Why is this important?  I think it is important because we don't see Ron DeSantis threatening American Airlines or El Al Airlines with $5,000 dollar fines per occurrence but yet he is picking a fight with cruise lines, it makes no sense

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1 hour ago, wordell1 said:

The Sun Sentinal may be the worst newspaper in America.  The FL law doesn't even allow for this and it is wrong for them to suggest that he "won't hesitate to send in troopers". The most that Desantis can do is fine Celebrity $5000 per occurance.

Just to be clear, @JeffB didn't write what's in the Sun Sentinel article. I think Ron Desantis has stepped in it on his ban. Not only is it stupid, while he can make the case it's lawful, it is patently obvious it isn't. 

BTW, The Miami Herald is the worst newspaper in America. ?

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37 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

I'd think so. However I don't think any country right now has a "vaccinated only" visitation policy.

Using the Bahamas as an example, a requirement for boarding could be having a valid health visa. However, the Bahamas could be a stop the last day on a seven day sailing. For the health visa a PCR test would need to be taken 5 days before visiting or submit being vaccinated.

In this case you'd be denied boarding for not having a health visa. Business at this point wouldn't be asking for proof of vaccination rather a valid health visa. Same thing as being denied boarding on a fight for not having a health visa.

Only argument I could see with a mandatory health visa, "I'm not getting off".

From Bahamas Health Visa site: Yachters/Boaters cruising throughout The Bahamas and not coming on land, however, may have the test requirement waived as they can be considered to be quarantining in place. On arrival at a population centre, yachters/boaters would be required to immediately take their Rapid Antigen Test.

Counter argument could be the cruise line is by default considering the passenger as "coming on land" even if they don't have any intent getting off the ship. I'm sure port fees are paid on the basis of passengers onboard, not passengers touching land. Not sure how it works for an entry visa if a passenger needs one for a port stop. Would that passenger be denied boarding the ship for not having an entry visa or just not be allowed on land at that port stop.

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A solution I see would be for DeSantis to grant temporary relief of the law while the PHE is in effect. Once the PHE is lifted, his law is in effect. But then again, every business in Florida would want the same. 
 

FWIW, I’m a constituent of DeSantis going back to when he was my Rep in the US House. I’ve always liked him but feel he ? in his mess kit with this one. It was too off the cuff and not thought through. I’m not a big vaccine fan but realize it is important to get cruises going again. 

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2 hours ago, JeffB said:

Just to be clear, @JeffB didn't write what's in the Sun Sentinel article. I think Ron Desantis has stepped in it on his ban. Not only is it stupid, while he can make the case it's lawful, it is patently obvious it isn't. 

BTW, The Miami Herald is the worst newspaper in America. ?

I don't disagree that DeSantis needs to find a way to back off on this. And you have been great with your posts on this issue.

I hate when newspapers basically make up stuff in order to make DeSantis look bad. He has already stated what the response would be (fines) Why create a false story just to scare people? 

I'm sure the Miami Herald is just mad they didn't think of this first.

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Its written above that the Sun Sentinel "says"...  My feelings is one of the worst most biased trash news sources in the country. Yes second only to Miami Herald.  I'm really trying to stay a- political but I have more trust in week old gas station sushi  than anything they write...  Again... I'm in various ports... Yes some are run down at county level then others I answer to the feds, not the state. Desantis is very much pro cruise... He has gone to great lengths  to get us this far and he will not be the source of great impediment as suggested by some...

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So if the cruise lines asked for vaccine status during check-in process online they wouldn't be violating any Florida laws as long as they don't ask people who live in Florida? But can they say "If you live in Florida you may voluntarily give us your vaccine status if you like, it's not a requirement to sail"
I'm sure the lawyers are going through everything they can right now. But then again, by the time July comes around, the CDC will change 50 things by then

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HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!  Enjoy your Freedom in this awesome Country!!!!

Finally caught up reading the opinions on this blog, was testing the waters in an All Inclusive in Punta Cana last week!

Anyway

I miss cruising really bad but I have stated my opinion from the get go(just like I said the cruise lines will cruise from other ports other than Florida)  the cruise lines should give us a choice.

Second Statement, I know Governor DeSantis will do everything to protect the rights of Floridians.  He is not forcing anything on individuals, he is actually making sure you have a CHOICE!!   Spin it anyway you want!!!!

 

 

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On 5/30/2021 at 8:55 AM, cruisellama said:

Curious if a non-US port on a ship's itinerary required a passenger record of vaccination status to stop,  and the line uses the port requirement to flow the requirement to its embarkation requirement.  Its no longer the line's requirement, but a requirement from a non-US gov't.  State could say, remove from itinerary if you want to sail from here (probably challengeable).  More hypothetical non-sense.

 

I wonder,  if a destination had a vaccine mandate, then the ship would have to be 100% vaccinated, or it would not be permitted to dock?

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30 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

I wonder,  if a destination had a vaccine mandate, then the ship would have to be 100% vaccinated, or it would not be permitted to dock?

I think that will be a consideration, not being able to leave the ship if you cannot show the country proof of vaccination. That said, could it not just be an option to not leave the ship? That way only vaccinated people can enter? it wouldn't be a cruise ship requirement, but could be a country requirement, meeting those officials on the ship (or in an area right off the ship) where you would provide vaccine proof in order to enter? 

You could also base your cruise choices on those countries that do not require vaccines for entry. There aren't very many who are requiring it, so it could be a viable option.

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7 minutes ago, CruiseGus said:

My take is the CDC a Federal authority has approved Celebrity to cruise from Ft Lauderdale based on the 98/95% vaccinated requirement rule and that being Federal Trump's (yea i know) any state law.

It has already been put out by Health and Human services that business CAN require employees to be vaccinated as grounds for continued employment.

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 11:57 AM, CGTLH said:

If my interpretation of the latest document filing is accurate the mediation is still on going. Session on May 27 was 11 hours, 10 am to 9 pm. Will resume June 1.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.66.0_1.pdf

True. I find it interesting that the minutes stated this:

 

PROCEEDINGS: SETTLEMENT CONFERENCE HELD (VIA ZOOM) Settlement conference is continued to Tuesday, June 1, 2021.

 Settlement conferences are different from mediation in that settlement conferences are usually shorter and typically have fewer roles for participation of the parties or for consideration of non-legal interests.

Maybe they are getting close to finishing this thing off. 

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I found this article an interesting read.  I hope this means there is a path to a restart as planned.   I think DeSantis truly wants cruising to restart sooner than later, but is also doing what he believes is best for the State of Florida.  

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis Is Crafting A Cruise Line Exemption For His Vaccine Passport Ban

 

@Matt has a mention in it as well.

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Thoughts on the latest document filed: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.67.0_1.pdf

Sounds like the CDC is making the claim Congress has ratified the CSO and the Alaska Tourism Restoration Act requires the CSO.

 

One tidbit from it: 4 requests approved for simulated voyages with 6 under review. 22 vessels and 5 ports with approved agreements. 2 CSO certificates issued under highly vaccinated terms.

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27 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

One tidbit from it: 4 requests approved for simulated voyages with 6 under review. 22 vessels and 5 ports with approved agreements. 2 CSO certificates issued under highly vaccinated terms.

We know that Royal is doing the test cruise with Freedom. 

What about the other 3 approved requests? Disney? Carnival? 

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37 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Thoughts on the latest document filed: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.67.0_1.pdf

Sounds like the CDC is making the claim Congress has ratified the CSO and the Alaska Tourism Restoration Act requires the CSO.

 

One tidbit from it: 4 requests approved for simulated voyages with 6 under review. 22 vessels and 5 ports with approved agreements. 2 CSO certificates issued under highly vaccinated terms.

They're trying to claim that the Alaska law, which has absolutely nothing to do with the CSO, de facto ratifies the CSO?

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